Ramsey Fan and Credit Cards

Ramsey Fan and Credit Cards

Real Estate Investor · Greensboro, NC · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 3 votes
Hello everyone, My wife and I are looks to get in to real estate investment within the next year or so. To date we have been Dave Ramsey fans and are totally debt free as of about two weeks ago. Yay! Now we are saving up an emergency fund and should have that finished up by the summer. As I've been learning and researching, reading the forums, attending BP webinars, listening to the podcast, etc, I get the overwhelming impression that investing with an all cash strategy isn't popular, and I have seen the math worked out in several threads. I understand the logic. We are aware of the popularity of leverage in investment, and are trying to decide if we will be able to come to grips with it enough to allow our potential business to utilize it. It's a scary thought for us right now as we are just freshly debt free. As a result, we currently have zero credit cards. My biggest question is this: should we consider getting a credit card in order to keep our existing credit (which is actually quite good) growing in hopes that it will help us find decent loans in the future, or is it something that isn't necessary? I want to get the communities thoughts before pulling the trigger on another debt product. Please be thoughtful in helping us make this decision, as it's not an easy one for us. The reluctance is indescribable.
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Lender · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y

Call Dave and ask him...you already know the answer. :) I think if you want to be an investor AND follow Dave's advice, it will be ve4ry difficult to do. I am a big fan of Dave's teachings and have facilitated many of his Financial Peace University events. At the same time, Dave has an extraordinary benefit that the vast majority of his followers do not have,,,he has the income stream from his products to invest. I think one could still be a debt free investor, if you are willing to start with the very small cash deals you can afford to take down with cash, by saving up the cash needed and doing it. I also think that a group of similar thinking people could form a JV group and pool resources and do the same thing...again using all cash from the parties. Lastly, I think that some of Dave's followers will find themselves too drawn to the potential profits that investing in real estate can bring and they will succumb to the lure of financing of some type to get into the REI world.

So, you need to decide what is important for you and your family and how badly do you want to do what you need to do to reach goals that you set and what are you willing to risk to do it.  Somewhere in there lies your answer...Dave's would be DO NOT BORROW MONEY!  You did not work so hard to get debt free...to go back into debt.

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  • Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    10y

    I would think it would look better on your credit to have some credit cards. Just because you have a huge credit limit doesn't mean you have to use any of it. They are nice to have around for emergencies or to float things on when 0% interest is offered.  

  • Investor · Sidman, PA · Member since 2013 · 50 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    Congrats on being debt free!  That's a great feeling!  I have credit cards that I use every month but I don't put more on them than I can pay off at the end of the month.  I also put all my materials on my Home Depot card and take advantage of the interest free (12-24) months.  I am doing a flip at the moment where I will put about 10 K on my home depot card with the interest free, but I will pay it all off once the house sells or I refinance it.  Good luck and congrats!

  • Lender · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Call Dave and ask him...you already know the answer. :) I think if you want to be an investor AND follow Dave's advice, it will be ve4ry difficult to do. I am a big fan of Dave's teachings and have facilitated many of his Financial Peace University events. At the same time, Dave has an extraordinary benefit that the vast majority of his followers do not have,,,he has the income stream from his products to invest. I think one could still be a debt free investor, if you are willing to start with the very small cash deals you can afford to take down with cash, by saving up the cash needed and doing it. I also think that a group of similar thinking people could form a JV group and pool resources and do the same thing...again using all cash from the parties. Lastly, I think that some of Dave's followers will find themselves too drawn to the potential profits that investing in real estate can bring and they will succumb to the lure of financing of some type to get into the REI world.

    So, you need to decide what is important for you and your family and how badly do you want to do what you need to do to reach goals that you set and what are you willing to risk to do it.  Somewhere in there lies your answer...Dave's would be DO NOT BORROW MONEY!  You did not work so hard to get debt free...to go back into debt.

  • Investor · Columbus, MT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Chris Virgilio 

    I would recommend opening an account with the site called: Credit Karma! It is so helpful to track your credit and see how different things affect your credit score. 

    I am a Dave Ramsey fan myself, and apply many of his principles to my life and fiances. We keep a budget, have an emergency fund, don't "invest" in a whole life insurance policy. etc... 

    However, we do use debt in our real estate biz. Its the only reason I am investing in REI over stocks. It would not make sense other wise. (unless i was in Detroit)

    We do have open accounts with credit cards, ... I have an "active" account that is 7 years old now, that account has help boost my score tremendously. I cut up the card for this acoout about 5 years ago, in Dave's class, I just forgot to close the account. good thing to. 

    In Dave's defense, he is so logical about the credit score thing. If you have no intention of ever going into debt again, why would you need a good credit score? 

    If I'm going to continue to buy houses with debt, it best to have a good credit score. 

  • Investor/Realtor · Wentzville, MO · Member since 2014 · 846 posts · 431 votes
    10y

    @Chris Virgilio

    Congrats on being debt free.  Not many people can say they are debt free.  I can imagine it can be scary to jump into debt after becoming debt free.  But there is a difference between going into bad debt, (cars, liabilities) and good debt (rental properties). 

    In regards to credit cards.  Opening a credit card (line of credit) can improve your credit score as long as you keep your balance paid off or very low.  There are many benefits to opening credit cards and using them for your regular purchases.  There are many cards that offer amazing benefits.  

    I use credit cards for most of my purchases and pay off the balance every month which allows me to take advantage of the point benefits without paying interest.  I have used the points from my credit cards to fly multiple times for free (just paying taxes) including a trip to Europe.  

    I follow "The Points Guy" on social media.  He gives great advice on what cards are the best and how to maximize the benefits.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 880 votes
    10y

    @Chris Virgilio congrats on getting debt free! I am very familiar with Dave and his strategies. With Dave debt is bad. With other financial wizards, personal debt is bad, business debt (or debt that people pay you to carry) isn't bad. You have to go with what you are comfortable with. Ultimately, you could find a happy medium. 

    You could save up and buy an investment property in cash, free and clear and then open an equity line on that house and use that money to purchase additional property. You, in essence, become your own bank. Being the bank is good! Really good! 

  • Real Estate Agent · Port Huron, MI · Member since 2012 · 295 posts · 82 votes
    10y

    @Chris Virgilio You have been living on beans and rice and rice and beans since you've started your debt snowball. Keeping with that method and putting all of your money towards purchasing a rental property (after you have your emergency account funded) how long would it take you to save enough to buy an entry level rental property cash in your market (and I mean all of your money). This rental will needs work that you will have to do after work and on the weekend but will be below market value.

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Try this math:

    • Case-1, buying all cash. You invest (depending FMV where you live) $100k dollars in property. Assume each produces $50k NOI a year. Divide your nest egg by $100k and that produces X number of properties and X * $50k NOI
    • Case-2, buy with a low down payment from your nest egg (assume $10k) and each produces the same $50k NOI. Again divide your nest egg by the down payment and you now have 10x properties and 10X NOI

    It's obvious that Case-2 has a better ROI for the same nest egg and the loans are being supported by (of all things) your tenants, not you :grin:

  • Financial Advisor · Boynton Beach, FL · Member since 2015 · 833 posts · 798 votes
    10y

    I cringe when I hear about people blindly following Dave Ramsey's advice. Debt can get you in trouble, but if you want to get the most out of your money, you need to use debt. Here are my thought from a recent biggerpockets post:

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/7595/47603-you...

    If you are going to invest in real estate, you really need to find a middle ground. Debt is a financial tool that nearly all successful large businesses use. Dave's target market is people who cannot manage their finances. If you are getting into real estate investing, you need to run your business like a business.

    @Joshua D. - I don't want to turn this into a life insurance thread, but "using" not "investing" in permanent life insurance is a very powerful strategy that will improve your real estate investing results. Dave Ramsey doesn't understand how life insurance works. Many life insurance agents don't. If he did, he would never make a claim like "Why should I have to pay interest to access my own money?" Policy loans are loans "Against" the cash value of a life insurance policy, not "From" the cash value. That is a HUGE difference! 

    It means that the insurance company is loaning you "Their" money and the collateral is "Your" money. Since your cash value is earning interest at the same time your loan is accruing interest, you now have a simple mechanism to access your cash, and your capital gains!, tax-free. Its also a myth that there is no cash value for 3 years. I can design a policy with 85-90% cash value to premium from day one.

    My own policy averages over 8% annual growth (tax-free, mind you). The interest rate on policy loans is 4.2%. Anything I make in excess of 4.2% adds value on top of what my cash value is earning. I have $1.70 of assets working for myself for every $1.00 I paid in premium.

  • Castlewood, VA · Member since 2012 · 177 posts · 57 votes
    10y

    @Chris Virgilio Having credit cards with little to no balance will actually improve your credit score over time by increasing available credit. Moreover, you get the perks that each card gives (points, cash back, etc.). 

    You may take a short term hit b/c of credit inquiries appearing on your credit report, but they diminish over time and may not be a big deal since your available credit goes up.

    My suggestion would be to identify to the things you regularly spend money on and get a few credit cards that yield the rewards your after. 

    Ex) AMEX Blue cashback cards yields give 6% with annual fee or 3% with no annual fee on groceries. Amazon Chase yields 3% cash back on all Amazon.com purchases. 

    You have to have good to excellent credit (say 720+ for the really good cards, so don't apply for the excellent ones unless you have it b/c those inquiries will remain on your credit report even if you're rejected. Check out your score on a site like CreditKarma and go from there. 

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    I'm a hybrid of Ramsey and Kyosaki as well.  Congrats on being debt free @Chris Virgilio!  Here's something that's always bothered me about the debt free screams on Dave's show.  He never asks about net worth.  You can be a debt-free renter with a few grand to your name.  

    Some of us hybrids could call as debt-free AND qualify to be on the millionaire them hour.  Without any debt I may only have a little house or two.  Responsible use of RE leverage was the key for me.  I don't play with cash back, rewards, points, miles or cc's at all. My mailbox is cc offer free!  I put the considerable time and energy juggling all that junk into my afternoon naps.  Cheers!

  • Real Estate Investor · Greensboro, NC · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    These are some pretty fun replies, so far.  I should clarify that I am already a Creditkarma member and have a 750+ credit score. I know, not in bad shape. Now that I've paid of my last auto loan, we have zero open accounts. My history isn't bad at all, and I've financed two cars in the past 5 years. I'm not in any financial trouble by any means.

    I certainly see the wisdom in why buy one $100,000 house with cash when you can put five $20,000 down payments on 5 properties?  Leveraging is just a mental and emotional hump that we are going to have to get over. 

    So in the meantime I'm really assuming that it's best to open at least one CC account (shudder) so that my credit score doesn't evaporate into nothingness. But then do I do as @Steve Vaughan suggests and ditch it once we are in mortgage land?

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2013 · 465 posts · 170 votes
    10y

    Hell I'd have a few CC's rolling around just so I can abuse that 0% financing. 
    But personally I'm trying to pay off my CC debt personally and leverage properties to make the most amount of money possible. I'd rather have 5 hoses with debt than 1 house with no debt. Scale is important to me.

  • Real Estate Investor · Greensboro, NC · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Andy Robison:

    Hell I'd have a few CC's rolling around just so I can abuse that 0% financing. 
    But personally I'm trying to pay off my CC debt personally and leverage properties to make the most amount of money possible. I'd rather have 5 hoses with debt than 1 house with no debt. Scale is important to me.

     I totally get that.  I mean I wouldn't say it was exactly accurate that Dave Ramsey doesn't advocate becoming debt free just to go back in to debt. He does allow for people to take a mortgage on their first home. So we don't own a home. We are hoping for our first home to be a duplex or triplex so that we can pay it off faster and earn some extra income on the deal. I don't know if that really scales well, but it can't be a bad start can it?

  • Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes
    10y

    The financial gurus sometimes put emotions before math. There are three main points that I disagree with:

    1. "snowball" - This method calls for paying the smallest debt first, to satisfy "feelings". In each and every case, the debt with the highest rate should be paid first, all other things being equal (avalanche).

    2. Debt is bad - No, leverage is powerful, so long that the risk is minimized and accounted for. With real estate debt, having ample cash reserves or other means to cover unexpected, large expenses is key.

    3. Pay off consumer debt before investing - Not all consumer debt should be paid off if the return on investment is higher than the interest rate on the consumer debt. Although it isn't fun to have 20k in student loans at a rate of 6 or 7%, for example, if a significantly higher rate of return can be achieved by investing the money rather than using it to pay the debt, it should be invested, especially when investing in real estate. Sure, you could spend 20k to pay the loans off, but you could also use that same 20k to purchase a property "for cash", and begin a BRRRR strategy, reclaiming your initial investment.

    Having said all of that, there is a strategy for credit card debt that people should be made aware of:

    1. Pay off the credit card debt

    2. Request increases in the credit limits

    3. Re-borrow the money using zero or low interest rate promotions

    4. Repeat to build credit lines and access cheap capital

  • Realtor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 21 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    Chris, 

    First and foremost, congratulations on starting your investment ventures, I'm sure your ecstatic to get up and going! With the passion you have, the time, and due diligence you've put forth thus far, i'm certain you'll reach the success you're aiming for. If I had any advice for just starting out, it would be to stay patient and persistent... treat each failure as a learning experience and keep pushing forward regardless of the set backs. In the end, 'the more you learn the more you will earn'. 

    When it comes to an all cash transaction juxtaposed to leveraging hard money (or any other type of financing), I keep a simple analogy in mind to help me understand the benefit of diversification. 

    "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" 

    Why is this analogy important? 

    As we all know, life can be quite capricious, throwing us curve balls when we least expect it. When I first started investing in real estate my mentor asked me, "Justin, would you sleep easier at night knowing you had $100,000 in the game or $10,000-$20,000  in the game with the same end goal being attainable?" I tell you what Chris, when I was was asked this question, it  hit me like a ton of bricks. If I could get the same benefits (appreciation, depreciation, tax-write offs etc.)  from using the most powerful tool in the world, OPM (Other Peoples Money), while not having to tie up ALL of my cash to get the results i'm looking for, why would I not take advantage of this? I want you to ask you the same thing, "Chris, would you sleep easier at night knowing you had $100,000 in the game or $10,000-$20,000 in the game with the same end goal being attainable?" 

    This is the power of diversification. Instead of taking on just one project at a time, diversifying gives you the opportunity to take advantage of 2-3 at a time.  But what if one goes completely wrong?  You have 2 more to balance it out. What if you tie all of your money up into one property and the investment goes south? Exactly. 

    I hope this helps man! Best of luck to you in your endeavors Chris! Go get em. 

    Justin Peters

    Real Estate Professional 

  • Homeowner · VISTA, CA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 340 votes
    10y

    From experience I can personally attest to the fact that having credit cards with large credit limits is definitely a rating booster. That stated, however, you need to be careful about acquiring them to close together or that could bring your score down. Additionally, it will add inquiries to your report which negatively impacts your score.

    I've held an 850 score on all 3 credit reporting companies for years. I have hundreds of thousands of dollars of credit limits combined on CC's I've held for decades. However, when I decided to get rid of some cards I rarely use and continue to pay annual memberships on I did myself somewhat of a disservice. 

    Big mistake. In so doing I shot myself in the foot because it took a couple of hundred thousand dollars of my credit limit out of my credit profile thus bringing my score down by as much as 20 points on one of the credit reporting agencies. Granted an 830 score will get me on anyone's list of an exceptionally low credit risk but I took pride in that 850. 

    Another thing that will impact your score is the average length of time you've had your CC's. So once you get them keep them, use them and pay them off in full every month. We haven't paid a late penalty or even any interest in 25 years. Our goal is to not allow the CC companies to make any money off of us. LOL! So far they haven't. 

    I'd start out a one good revolving credit card and start using it and paying it off every month. After a year ask for a credit increase and keep asking them for increases whenever you think they will increase them. 

    Most CC companies will only give you a 2-5k limit when you're new. Especially if you don't have any other cards. Go for one card a year until you've got 3 or 4 and then just keep building on them until you eventually have at least 25k limits on most or all of them and by all means once you get them keep them.

    I've actually got 100k limits on some and could probably get more if I wanted or needed them. But I've had these cards for decades. Another think you may want to do is ask your bank about an unsecured line of credit. I have one from my bank that started out at 25k and over the years it's been increased to 100. We've only used it a couple of times but we've always paid it off very quickly. This to will at to your overall credit availability and worthiness.

    It's great to be debt free but my Dad who didn't believe in credit cards or credit period and always saved and paid cash for everything had difficulty buying a home because he had no credit even though he had savings and a good payment history on everything and a good job in Aerospace he still had difficulty. Fortunately he had his GI and was able to get a great loan from that.

    My 3 cents adjusted for inflation. Hope it helps.

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2013 · 465 posts · 170 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chris Virgilio:
    Originally posted by @Andy Robison:

    Hell I'd have a few CC's rolling around just so I can abuse that 0% financing. 
    But personally I'm trying to pay off my CC debt personally and leverage properties to make the most amount of money possible. I'd rather have 5 hoses with debt than 1 house with no debt. Scale is important to me.

     I totally get that.  I mean I wouldn't say it was exactly accurate that Dave Ramsey doesn't advocate becoming debt free just to go back in to debt. He does allow for people to take a mortgage on their first home. So we don't own a home. We are hoping for our first home to be a duplex or triplex so that we can pay it off faster and earn some extra income on the deal. I don't know if that really scales well, but it can't be a bad start can it?

     one question. Why would you want to pay off your house faster? You lose tax advantages, and ways to shield your income and lower your tax bill at the end of the year. Try to get out of the consumer mind set, you want to CREATE wealth. Nobody gets wealthy by saving.

    So lets play a mind game real quick. You make enough money to cover your bills and put $500/month into your investment nest egg. You've got enough for a 20% down on a duplex +other expenses I like simple numbers so I'll keep it simple but hopefully it'll make sense.
    So you have a duplex you bought for $100k. It rents each side out for $800/month. You move into one side, and rent the other out. Covering the $750-ish mortgage/insurance/tax bill.  Great! You are started. Lets say you were paying $1k/month in rent.
    Now you have a duplex, great tennants, lower mortgage and still keeping that $500/month to build your nest egg again + another 350 from not renting out 1k/month any more. In 2 years nothing happens life is great, ideal situations. You now have enough for another duplex. Same deal. 100k purchase, after you fix some stuff you get $800/side. $1600 total. 750 mortgage +300 rainy day fund (because luck wont hold forever) Cashflow $550 from the new duplex. So now you have 160k in debt. But that debt is being paid for by other people. And that debt is generating you $550/month. You enter year four keeping strict budgets you still manage to keep putting $850 of your money into your nest egg and adding the $550/month from the other duplex. You have enough to buy another duplex same deal add another 550/month. and it scales, instead of one property a year you have a nest egg for purchases being bought every 6 months, then 3months etc etc . Now you and the wife have gotten a pay raise, and keep investing into your real estate company more money buy more properties until you have 10 duplexes generating $5500/month. or 66k a year lets say this took 9 years. Great you have 66k in income and your DTI is incredibly awesome. (crazy scenario and not likely to happen but illustrate the point of leverage) Then there is OPM tax benifits, putting 3-5% down instead of 20% and a whole slew of other things I wont touch on for a thought experiment.

    Other hand, you buy one duplex, 20% down $100k purchase 750-ish mortgage. You manage to pay it off in 7 years. The duplex now generates $800/month free and clear. Which would you rather have?

  • Real Estate Investor · Greensboro, NC · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    @Andy Robison, that's exactly the kind of education I need. I know little to nothing about the ins and outs of business financials. I think I got a decent handle on personal finances, at least as far as not bleeding money goes.

    I've begun talking about concepts like that with the wife, and she is coming around, though I don't feel like I have nearly a good enough handle in it yet to even explain it to myself.

    Her biggest fear is overextending, and I don't know yet how to reconcile that part. It is pretty obvious that waiting for everything to be paid off in cash before moving on to the next property will take 2 or 3 lifetimes to get anywhere near the sort of return we could get leveraging. I just need to learn and understand the nuts and bolts better to keep ourselves out of trouble. At least, that should hopefully hold us over until I hire someone who does this for a living to handle/educate me.

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2013 · 465 posts · 170 votes
    10y

    Please bear in mind that that is way overly optimistic as far as rent-purchase price. It was only intended to show that paying off a mortgage is not the best option in most cases. 
    Now you could once you get to 10 houses, pay down a house or two and increase cash flow. Or do a cash out REFI and just recycle that money. Keeping mortgage on the house and purchasing new properties.

  • Real Estate Investor · Greensboro, NC · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Andy Robison:

    Please bear in mind that that is way overly optimistic as far as rent-purchase price. It was only intended to show that paying off a mortgage is not the best option in most cases. 
    Now you could once you get to 10 houses, pay down a house or two and increase cash flow. Or do a cash out REFI and just recycle that money. Keeping mortgage on the house and purchasing new properties.

     That's a theme I've seen quite a few times on the forums. Certainly makes sense. I am under no illusions that everything is going to go perfectly. If we can keep from losing money on property #1, I think I will feel pretty awesome. It sure is going to be an adventure. Any recommendations for resources to learn the business/financing/tax side of these matters a little/a lot better? (Short of an advanced degree)

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2013 · 465 posts · 170 votes
    10y

     Search BP. Literally Everything you need to know. (Well most everything) Look for a qualified CPA who deals with real-estate and spend an hour asking questions.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    The reality is there is good debt and bad debt.

    Is a person better off with no debt if that keeps them from acquiring a property at a great deal?

    I would say no.

    If you buy a property at 1 million and have 750k in debt but that property is now worth 1,400,000 2 years later it can be a win. Debt that allows you to increase your net worth and cash flow can be a great thing.

    Borrowing for the wrong reasons with no back up plans is where people get into trouble.  I have some cards with 0% rate for 2 years but I could pay off cash easily if I wanted to and balances are small.

    Most of these people espousing no debt as mentioned they have a lot of revenue from their businesses doing seminars and promoting educational  products. They plow those earnings into real estate so the taxman doesn't eat them alive.

    When you start making large amounts of money annually you have to have a system in place to reduce taxes or they take it all. So if someone goes  from making 50k, to 100k, to 300k a year the taxes look different.

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    One of the issues often overlooked when using debt to buy anything is you are more likely to spend opm than your own.  Studies have shown that when someone uses a credit card they are likely to spend more than if they were using cash, one of the reasons for store credit cards.   Applying that to real estate, the less money you have into something the less you are likely to buy a certain property.  Think about it- if you took five years to scrape together $100k to buy a $100k property wouldn't you be much more diligent than if you only had to put $3K down on the same property?  Five years of scrimping and saving versus 2 months worth.   

  • Real Estate Investor · Greensboro, NC · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    @Cal C., I'm not sure if that is an argument for or against using leverage to fund REIs?

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