Please advise-15% down or 20% down- gift money issue

Please advise-15% down or 20% down- gift money issue

Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 106 votes

I am in the process of purchasing my 2nd and 3rd properties with conventional financing from the same lender. Originally, I planned to put 20% down on both properties because I thought that it was a REQUIREMENT that investors put down 20% on conventional loans. Next, the lender explained that I needed to have 6 months reserves for each property so I asked my mother if she would give me the money for reserves. Mother agrees and wires the money into my account. Then lender says that they can not use "gift" money for reserves in the purchase of investment property which means I do not have enough money to put 20% down on both properties with 6 months reserves for each. 

Next, the lender suggests that I only put 15% down on each this way I will have enough to purchase both properties on my own and have enough for reserves without the use of gift money. However, if I only put 15% down, I am financing more, which increases my monthly payment $15 over 30 years and I will have to have mortgage insurance PMI of $30 a month. This cuts into my projected cash flow from rents $45 each month, so I am not happy about this. The lender explained that I could send some of the gift money with the first mortgage payment to immediately get rid of the mortgage insurance-PMI but this would still leave me with higher mortgage payment that is $15 higher each month.

Questions: 

  • I didn't know that investors could only put down 15% instead of 20% on a conventional loan is that standard?
  • Is it better to use more of financing (using other peoples money) with only 15% down. It doesn't seem like a better deal since borrowing more increases my monthly payments.
  • Gift money rules- have you all ever heard of the rule that gift money cannot be used on investment purchase? How long do I keep the money in my account before it is not longer considered a gift?
  • Do you see other options for me in this scenario? Should I only purchase 1 property, use a different lender, finance both at 15% down etc. 
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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    The problem is an underwriter can view purported gift money as a LOAN in disguise. So if you have to pay an unsecured loan that is not counted it really is more debt.

    Example you buy a house for 100,000.

    You put 20% down but 6 months reserves or 4,000 is needed.

    Your mom wires into account but really you pay her back over time.

    Now what you have is an 80k loan with a unsecured loan of 4,000 that affects your ability to pay the loan as you have an additional debt responsibility.

    The amount of time the money sits in your account is called seasoning. They want to see usually 3 months on likely 6 months seasoning.

    Easiest might be to see if the seller will hold a short term second note and then you put only 10 or 15% down. Then just pay off the second note.  

    No legal advice given.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 106 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Joel Owens:

    Easiest might be to see if the seller will hold a short term second note and then you put only 10 or 15% down. Then just pay off the second note.  

    No legal advice given.

    Hey Joel thank you for your response. The home is a VA REO so they probably won't consider a second. I can however put 15% down on both and move forward with PMI and a higher mortgage that is what the lender wants of course.

  • Loan Officer / Processor / Life & Health Agent · Rancho Cucamonga, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 757 votes
    10y

    @Rhondalette W.

    Yes you can put down 15% on SFR investments only. You can't do this on multi family units and this is standard.

    If you're paying an additional $45 per month or $540 per year what does that the 5% represent? If it's double the $540 and you need the reserves then you're probably best to use the 15% down. Also do you have any 401K, IRA, or stocks and bonds as this can be used for reserves as well.

    No gift money on investment properties period.  Fannie and Freddie are looking for 30 to 60 days of seasoning.

    I would strongly suggest using one lender because the UW will approve both together. If you go elsewhere you're going to need to provide closing HUD, Notes and rate riders to prove it's investment. A lot of extra work.

    I hope this helps.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    You problem is not how much you are putting down it is the fact that you are purchasing properties that are not good investments as rental income properties.

    You need to calculate cash flow based on 100% financing not simply the amount of the mortgage otherwise you are not receiving any income on the equity in the property. Size of down payment is irrelevant to true cash flow.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 106 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Shaun Weekes:

    @Rhondalette W.

    Yes you can put down 15% on SFR investments only. You can't do this on multi family units and this is standard.

    If you're paying an additional $45 per month or $540 per year what does that the 5% represent? If it's double the $540 and you need the reserves then you're probably best to use the 15% down. Also do you have any 401K, IRA, or stocks and bonds as this can be used for reserves as well.

    No gift money on investment properties period.  Fannie and Freddie are looking for 30 to 60 days of seasoning.

    I would strongly suggest using one lender because the UW will approve both together. If you go elsewhere you're going to need to provide closing HUD, Notes and rate riders to prove it's investment. A lot of extra work.

    I hope this helps.

    Thanks Shaun for your response on this issue. It is good to hear your view on this. To answer the question about 401K, IRA etc. I have already provided all assets for the lender. You confirmed for me the no gift money on investment properties and this helps.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 106 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Thomas S.:

    You problem is not how much you are putting down it is the fact that you are purchasing properties that are not good investments as rental income properties.

    You need to calculate cash flow based on 100% financing not simply the amount of the mortgage otherwise you are not receiving any income on the equity in the property. Size of down payment is irrelevant to true cash flow.

     Greg I am using the BP calculators to determine cash flow. Income- Expenses (Rental Income minus Insurance, Taxes, Vacancy, Repairs, CapEX. and Mortgage= Cash Flow.) I am not sure that I understand your 100% financing and equity comment. How are you suggesting that the calculation change?

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 106 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Graham Parham:

    Can you put less down the 20%? Yes, we do have a 15% down payment option available, but keep in mind it does require private mortgage insurance and your cash flow will not be as good.

    An example of the benefits of putting a full 20% down versus 15%.

    Price$150,000.00$150,000.00Difference
    Interest Rate5.000%4.750%25.000%
    LTV85%80%0.05%
    Down Payment$22,500.00$30,000.00-$7,500.00
    Loan$127,500.00$120,000.00
    Monthly Payment (P&I)$684.45$625.98$58.47
    Private Mortgage Insurance$71.00$71.00
    Total Monthly Payment$755.45$625.98$129.47

    As you can see in the chart that for a measly $7500 more in a down payment, you would eliminate having to pay PMI for the next 44 months (44 X $71.00 = $3,124) as well as the cost of money is 0.250% better with 20% down ($7,500 @ .250% over 44 months is $951.57). You do the Math!

    www.texasinvestorloans.com

     Graham, looking at your chart are you suggesting that the interest rate for 15% down should be better than the rate for 20%? I am just wondering the difference between the 5.000% and the 4.750% in the chart. 

  • Lender · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 68 posts · 22 votes
    10y

    No. Relook at the Chart. The rate on a 15% is worse than the 20% down. 

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Income properties have two cash generating streams. One is the property the second is the equity in the property (down payment plus appreciation). When doing the calculations on expenses the debt repayment portion is done based on 100% financing figures so that you are being paid a return on your equity at the same interest rate as the mortgage as part of the cash flow calculations.

    BP calculators may not use this formula but if you do not then your cash flow numbers are not accurate. Not receiving a return on equity is making the assumption that money has no worth. This is contrary to the principals of investing.

    No one would buy a 1M dollar property all cash and ignore the fact that they have tied up 1M cash without expecting a return on it before cash flow.

    This is why all calculations assume 100% financing and why the amount of a down payment does not effect true cash flow. Many investors ignore the value of money to artificially enhance cash flow. 

    If you do not have positive cash flow based on 100% financing calculations it is not a good investment  income property.

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