Wrapping a FHA Mortgage

Wrapping a FHA Mortgage

Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

It is almost daily that I see a new question or concern about Wraps and Sub2 here. It got me wondering just how many folks are aware of outcomes of some of those practices really are. It also begs the question, just how sophisticated and knowledgeable those deploying (or trying to) are. I suppose if the amount of questions are some quantification of that knowledge, not very is the answer.

So, I am going to re-post a story from the HUD archives that a couple title companies and other mortgage examiners have posted. I am guessing many have never heard this story. I am also wondering, if folks know how to determine an FHA loan from other Mortgagees, perhaps not. Playing with fire?
 You decide.

Anyway the story written by Unknown:

Early on in Allen Clussive’s career he agreed to close a transaction wrapping around an existing loan. The sale price on the transaction was $185,000. The buyer could not qualify for new financing and asked the seller to carryback a new loan in the amount of $180,000. The seller agreed, with the understanding that without the buyer obtaining a new loan he would not have the financial means to pay off his existing first loan in the amount of $157,000. The buyer and seller agreed to wrap the existing $157,000 loan with the new seller carryback loan. The underlying loan was an FHA loan originated after 1989.

At closing, the buyer brought in $5,000 for his down payment plus his closing costs. Allen closed the transaction. After closing, the buyer paid the seller and the seller paid the FHA loan on time every month. Upon receipt of the buyer’s payment the seller paid the monthly principal, interest, taxes and insurance (PITI) payments to the lender servicing his FHA loan, and pocketed the balance. Everything was working perfectly until the 13th month when the buyer suddenly stopped making his monthly payments and abandoned the property.

The seller panicked and started to look for an attorney to start foreclosure in order to take the property back and put a renter in the house. In the meantime, the seller kept fronting the payments to the FHA loan to keep the payments current. The seller was making two house payments — one on his old home and one on his new home. Eventually the seller ran out of money and stopped making payments on the FHA loan.

The lender servicing the FHA loan started foreclosure and took the property back. The lender listed the property as an REO — bank–owned property – and resold it. They resold the property for $107,000, which was $50,000 less than they were owed. The lender filed a claim with FHA to be reimbursed the loss of $50,000. FHA sent the lender the $50,000 to cover their claim and the loan file was turned over to an investigator at the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), the agency who regulates FHA loans.

The HUD investigator discovered the property was transferred to a new buyer, but the buyer’s funds were not used to pay off the FHA loan. The investigator was curious how that could happen and sent a subpoena for Clussive’s file.

The HUD investigator discovered Clussive had facilitated a closing where title was transferred – yet the new owner’s credit did not qualify for the existing FHA loan. The investigator deemed the act unlawful and debarred Clussive from closing another FHA or VA insured loan transaction.

Now, to be honest with you, the action by HUD did not damage Clussive’s career. He lived and worked in an affluent community where FHA and VA loans were not prevalent due to their low loan limits. Sure, every once in a while one of Clussive’s customers would present a contract reflecting new FHA or VA financing and he would have to steer the customer to one of his associates to close the transaction, but for the most part it had little to no effect on his career. However, Clussive would be the first to tell you it definitely had a psychological effect on him.

Had Clussive known HUD issued a directive in 1990 (see below) banning the wrap of an FHA loan by any means — a land contract, a deed of trust, mortgage — he would have never accepted the transaction and agreed to close it. Unfortunately Clussive’s ignorance of the HUD rules did not exempt him from action by HUD.

In order to ensure Clussive never closed another FHA or VA loan, they placed his name on the Excluded Parties List System (EPLS) and Limited Denial Participation list. By placing his name on the list it ensured Clussive would never be able to close another FHA or VA loan or any other transaction involving the Federal Government, such as a HUD or VA REO sale.

Below is a letter from the U.S. Department of Urban Development issued back in 1990 addressing the ramifications of circumventing the credit qualifying process.

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
12y

@Jay Hinrichs My sentiments exactly.  I remember one post here where the would be sub2 player asked "isn't the whole idea of doing a sub2  is because I'm not actually responsible for the loan?"  There is way too much of a prevailing attitude that they'll slap together a deal, take a cut, then "move on down the road" and not be around or care when it blows up on someone.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    In addition to the above, another interesting letter essentially saying the same thing as above just more recent from a title company contains a warning that receiving a sanction from FHA may result in being rejected from delivery to Fannie Mae. For clarity, these sanctions will affect title agents, real estate agents & brokers and mortgage brokers & companies.

    "Fannie Mae also requires that lenders confirm that parties to the mortgage transaction are not on the lists prior to delivery of the loan to Fannie Mae."

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Dion - Don't you think most of the problems are caused by ignorant agents and sellers attempting to sell via wraps and sub-2 to a consumer (end user) buyer or other buyer who is unable to write a big check, if called due?

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Rick H. 


    I think in general none of the parties involved can truly handle the implications of these deals coming due.  I do not think either borrower truly understands the default risk let alone bankruptcy risk and legal risks.  I view theses as a new (yet old) form of skimming and quick ways to make a dollar with no capital at risk.  

    I find it amusing, that of most of the Sellers are distressed and that promoters convince themselves they can cure the call on the note.  In most cases, these are distressed and likely underwater properties.  So, there is more due than the property is worth.  If that wasn't the case, where there was no negative equity, then it seems to me the deal would be a true sale even if through some wholesale maneuver.  

    I think there is a false sense of being informed and protected by all involved.  Predatory lending, which I really think most of these Wraps are, is not absolved from being predatory by providing a disclosure.  

    As a mortgage buyer and having owned some assets where I used DOS to accelerate, the growing trend I see around has me believing there might be something to hunting for these specially. Wouldn't that be interesting?

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 308 posts · 59 votes
    12y

    Interesting.  What do you think would have happened if they discovered this while the wrap loan was still performing?  

    How difficult is it nowadays to assume an FHA loan?

  • Homeowner · Clinton, NJ · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 14 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bryce Y.:

    Interesting.  What do you think would have happened if they discovered this while the wrap loan was still performing?  

    How difficult is it nowadays to assume an FHA loan?

    It is no more difficult than a regular closing to assume an FHA loan. All you need to do is qualify, same as you would to get a new FHA loan. Once qualified you fill out some paperwork, take over the mortgage, and release the seller from liability. Only issue for investors is the owner-occupancy requirement, which is likely a motivation for wrapping or sub2

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    I agree with you @Tyler Mills For sure, assumptions can be done, it is the proper way and a real avenue that folks should look at IF they are the Owner and Seller. I am not sure those are any type of solution for the middle man wrapper. Most Mortgagees, not to mention HUD, are not going to let those folks step in the middle of all of it.

    It is because of that middle man strategy that I think those who try to deploy would not look properly at the idea of an assumption which if they mess with an FHA loan can get them into hot water.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    I've never taken over an FHA loan on a sub2. I'll be the first to say it's been more luck than knowledge. The loans I've dealt with so far were subprime or private or small bank portfolio.

    Forgive me for being dense, but I am confused by the language in the FHA and title company letter. It consistently refers to wraps and wrapping. But a typical sub2 deal for me involves no wrap. I think of wrapping as a seller selling sub2 to Buyer A. Then Buyer A selling to Buyer B with a loan that wraps the original underlying loan.

    So taking over a mortgage "without qualifying" with the lender is considered a wrap? Why don't they just say FHA loans must be formally assumed by buyers with qualifying credit?

  • Investor · McKinney, TX · Member since 2012 · 588 posts · 224 votes
    12y

    If you were to find a bank to do a portfolio loan that waived the due on sale clause or approved the wrap, what would be the remaining risks to an investor?

    Predatory Lending?  Buyer stopping payments and you both default?

    Anything else?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Now, let's look deeper. The borrower on the note can have a deficiency judgment, as the seller of the amounts he carried back he is barred from a deficiency judgment as he is entitled to the property under installment purchases financing equity based on an agreed sale price. That means the buyer walks and the borrower gets canned from both directions.

    Now let's toss in a wholesaler type who purchased and sold at that higher price. The original borrower has a cause of action for his non-performance. Let's say it was an assignment of a contract and the seller did the deal, the seller still has grounds to call the strawman in being a party to the transaction, meaning he can sue him anyway.

    Both can go after the buyer walking out, if you can find him and if he is worth going after.

    It could get deeper too if the buyer had claims of predatory dealing with the strawman who put the deal together.

    As to HUD, being barred is a carrier changer, in reality you won't be doing much or getting any license or errors or omission's coverage, liability coverage for a professional RE position. Any decent lender won't hire them nor would a title company give an insured closing letter on someone who has been barred. It does, will and can effect secondary market accounts as at some point all are insured federally. No VA, FHA, USDA, HUD Direct or State Bond Money transactions. We had memos mentioning who made HUD's naughty list and it's common knowledge among Realtors and their Brokers that means you do not deal with them. You're unofficially blackballed. Want to get a commercial loan as an investor, try another bank. You're out of business in many areas and you need to find something else that doesn't require a background check in a or as a fiduciary responsibility being involved or a position of trust......like selling shoes for example.

    Yes Rick, but most deals are residential, most are done with investors who can't write a check and payoff the loan, most can't refinance quick enough either. This type of thing has gone on for years, now with new laws in place, newbies better pay attention, even many of the old operators who though they were really sharp need to pay attention.

    BTW, the EPLS is an administrative action, not a judicial action, (not saying you won't end up in court either), while you will be notified of a hearing I have never heard of any average Joe winning, a few big fish, but we don't have those here regardless of the boasting, if HUD nails you, save yourself some time and money and start filling out job applications. If you act alone and get in some future trouble, bet on things going badly with a judge when he finds you were booted out of the industry by HUD.

    Good find Dion! :)   

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Shawn Thom if you find a lender that allows the assumption, which is the only real solution to avoiding potential DOS, then the assumption would relieve the first borrower of liability and make the borrower liable. In that case, the bank itself would be issuing new credit to the new borrower and they likely avoid predatory practices.

    In the event the new buyer/borrower defaults the typical remedies would apply.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed 

    I believe the title co.s memo regarding Wraps, is presuming that the original note holder is selling via wrap (holding a mtg greater than the underlying note) and isn't referring to a straight sub2 which is then wrapped to a second buyer. Wraps by the original note holder were of course more popular back in the day of rapidly rising interest rates, and wholesaling didn't exist to nearly the extent it does today. It would be much clearer if they just stated "no transfer without the loan being paid off or properly assumed". Any way you slice it, it is of course a sub2 transaction in violation of the DOS.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    @Account Closed 

    I believe the title co.s memo regarding Wraps, is presuming that the original note holder is selling via wrap (holding a mtg greater than the underlying note) and isn't referring to a straight sub2 which is then wrapped to a second buyer. Wraps by the original note holder were of course more popular back in the day of rapidly rising interest rates, and wholesaling didn't exist to nearly the extent it does today. It would be much clearer if they just stated "no transfer without the loan being paid off or properly assumed". Any way you slice it, it is of course a sub2 transaction in violation of the DOS.

    Agreed.  "No transfer of the property without payoff in full of the underlying loans or without assuming said loans with lender approval" is a lot clearer than "no wraps".  At least to me.  But I'm not an agent or escrow officer.  

    Violation of DOS doesn't worry me. Getting investigated or sanctioned or put on a list by the feds IS worrisome.

    Guess I'll just stick to non-FHA loans for now.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 308 posts · 59 votes
    12y

    The way I read it is this applies to agents and title companies, and not so much the individual investor. That's why I asked what would have happened if this was discovered when both loans were still performing. Would HUD have the ability to force the bank to call the note due? No legal advice.

  • Homeowner · Clinton, NJ · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 14 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bryce Y.:

    The way I read it is this applies to agents and title companies, and not so much the individual investor. That's why I asked what would have happened if this was discovered when both loans were still performing. Would HUD have the ability to force the bank to call the note due? No legal advice.

    Just dug into this a little more for you, looks like as per the HUD handbook a wrap-around is acceptable BUT it requires a HUD full review for approval. So from the sound of it if you go the proper channel and get HUD approval on the wrap-around they would not be able to call the note due, but if you do it without their knowing they would. Here is the link to the Handbook section, be aware though its a .doc format so it may try to download.

    http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?i...

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    @Tyler Mills and @Bryce Y. I don't see DOS as the issue in the wrap letters Dion posted. DOS is the least of my concerns. It's about sanctions from a federal agency. Additionally, I was interested to learn that when HUD pays out a claim to a lender on an FHA loan, there is an investigator and an investigation......just like any other type of insurance claim. Lots of sub2 buyers out there think that no harm can come to them if they let the property go to foreclosure. Putting aside their failure to perform per their agreement with the seller, they reason that the loan isn't in their name so there will be no consequences. The case in the letter above suggests otherwise.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed talked about lets say you do one of these in Texas were its common to get a deficiency judgment in the case of a foreclosure.  Seller lets someone take sub too.. this person defaults  the Seller does not have the wherewithal to cure. They thought there problem had been solved.. Bank forecloses it screws up sellers credit for ever and bank gets a deficiency judgment to boot. Investor who talked unsuspecting seller into the scenario is long gone...

    Sub too is just flat dangerous to a Seller in any scenario really.. If your going to look at the risk factor for the seller.  And then all the wanna bee's that can get into title on a house for next to nothing.. its ripe for all sorts of problems..

  • Homeowner · Clinton, NJ · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 14 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Tyler Mills and @Bryce Y. I don't see DOS as the issue in the wrap letters Dion posted. DOS is the least of my concerns. It's about sanctions from a federal agency. Additionally, I was interested to learn that when HUD pays out a claim to a lender on an FHA loan, there is an investigator and an investigation......just like any other type of insurance claim. Lots of sub2 buyers out there think that no harm can come to them if they let the property go to foreclosure. Putting aside their failure to perform per their agreement with the seller, they reason that the loan isn't in their name so there will be no consequences. The case in the letter above suggests otherwise.

    Both letters mention the sanction imposed though, you may be barred from future VA/FHA loans for at minimum a year. Personally I think this is less of a detriment than having your note called and foreclosure. There are many other finance options out there than FHA/VA, so if you get barred you go for conventional financing for the period. Though this would not be the ideal situation, the real threat is the the property as an individual, especially if you don't have the cash reserve to pay the loan in full when it comes called.

    And in a sub2 situation, it is pretty easy for the seller to turn around and rat the person out to HUD if it really comes down to it, and show them the sub2 contract. The belief that there could be no consequences because your name isn't on the note is a pretty uneducated belief to have, even without seeing the above letters.

  • CA · Member since 2011 · 762 posts · 182 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

    I am also wondering, if folks know how to determine an FHA loan from other Mortgagees, perhaps not.

    I give up, how?

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs My sentiments exactly.  I remember one post here where the would be sub2 player asked "isn't the whole idea of doing a sub2  is because I'm not actually responsible for the loan?"  There is way too much of a prevailing attitude that they'll slap together a deal, take a cut, then "move on down the road" and not be around or care when it blows up on someone.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Tyler Mills 

      the reality is most who do sub too are doing it because they do not have any real money to speak of probably no credit and probably would not qualify if they tried to assume. I would venture to guess this is really only viable for an owner occ with good credit and job etc etc.

    Its a risky move for a seller to sell their property in this manner  from many angles.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Tyler Mills:
    Originally posted by @Bryce Y.:

    The way I read it is this applies to agents and title companies, and not so much the individual investor. That's why I asked what would have happened if this was discovered when both loans were still performing. Would HUD have the ability to force the bank to call the note due? No legal advice.

    Just dug into this a little more for you, looks like as per the HUD handbook a wrap-around is acceptable BUT it requires a HUD full review for approval. So from the sound of it if you go the proper channel and get HUD approval on the wrap-around they would not be able to call the note due, but if you do it without their knowing they would. Here is the link to the Handbook section, be aware though its a .doc format so it may try to download.

    http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?i...


     I got all three of you in there.  Sneaky little quote feature, eh?

    Let's be clear because as K. Marie points out, the terminology being used in different posts in this thread gets a little confusing.  

    FHA loans are assumable. FHA requires their approval for any of their loans to be assumed. Assumptions are formal processes. There is no circumventing this requirement and process. Period.

    Default is not a requirement for a HUD loan to be reviewed. The loan can fall into review randomly or specifically regardless of loan performance. All defaulted HUD loans get reviewed since most Mortgagees seek to make claims on the insurance post default and disposition.

    The sanctions do not just apply to licensed agents (RE or Mortgage or Title), they apply to ALL parties involved.  To be clear, that means EVERYONE involved.  If the deal has a original borrower and one investor, those guys are in hot water.  If there is a wrap promoter and two borrowers, all of them.  If there is a title agent or a mortgage broker or an attorney, it will include all of them.  Nobody is absolved and nobody is safe from their reach and/or sanction.  

    If a loan is formally and properly approved for assumption, then there would be no fear of DOS or anything else similar. The darn thing was approved to be assumed.

    Bryce, just because every individual investor in the United States past, present and future did not get a letter from HUD is not reason to think this does not apply.  That is naive.  That is the line of thinking that gets folks into trouble, the "that doesn't apply to me" type thing.  The only way it could be more clear is if it had your name on it.  I am pretty sure if you write them and ask you can get a letter with your name on it.  

    The writing is on the wall for an investor who wants to try and create an arbitrage on an FHA loan.  It is extremely impractical to think or hope that HUD will let Betty Borrower convey title to Paul Promoter who then sells to Wendy Wrap and expect HUD to allow Wendy Wrap to assume Betty Borrower's loan.  I hope that is pretty darn clear to everyone.  Unless Paul Promoter is a licensed facilitator of the transaction, they will not let him be involved.  To be even further clear, they are certainly not going to take a haircut or a risk to allow Paul Promoter, fundamentally an uninterested third party, make some sort of profit.  I hope we can all agree, that is a very laughable idea.  



  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Account Closed 

    Sub too is just flat dangerous to a Seller in any scenario really.. If your going to look at the risk factor for the seller.  And then all the wanna bee's that can get into title on a house for next to nothing.. its ripe for all sorts of problems..

    That's a little strong.  Sellers I've bought from with their house debt already eliminated in a BK have been pretty happy to get rid of the property liability.  Just my experience of course.  I don't think it's "dangerous" in each and every scenario, really.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Wayne Brooks 

      I have seen it happen many times personally.... There was a group here in my market PDX.  That went to a training session on how to do sub two.. they had no real capital. but were gifted in research and closing deals.

    Well they did about 30 of them.. with the strategy to build CASH flow on the delta.

    they took title sub too then sold the houses to owner occ on land contracts which they recorded.  The buyers were buying with 1 to 2k down no credit blah blah blah... The delta was on a given property 200 to 300 a month .. so they got up to about 5 to 6k a month positive.  the down payments went to the people they bought the home from.

    Well as anyone who has ever been around the game very long knows that low down easy credit is basically a glorified renter. 

    Then the house of cards started to fall.. one by the one the new buyers defaulted.. there was not enough cash flow to pay all the underlying mortgages.. and to make matters worse the recorded land contracts in Oregon require a judicial foreclosure to extinguish.

    And of course the dead beat buyer is now squatting in the house... So in this scenario just imagine what it was like to be the original seller.

    You have moved on, you thought your problem was solved.  you now can't make the payment because its not coming in.. and you can't get your property back because you don't own it.  Its a mess and again why I think its a very dangerous strategy for sellers ...

    this company as you might imagine got turned in to the AG and had some other legal issues.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

    I am also wondering, if folks know how to determine an FHA loan from other Mortgagees, perhaps not.

    I give up, how?

     Some secrets are best left to the Gurus David.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed 

      agree K  with that point  if your seller is in CA and there is no deficiency judgement and their credit has been trashed by the BK already.

    so I correct my statement that its dangerous for a seller that still has good credit to do these deals.

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