Talked to my first portfolio lender - bullet points and questions

Talked to my first portfolio lender - bullet points and questions

Catonsville, MD · Member since 2014 · 89 posts · 21 votes

Hi all,

Had my first conversation with a portfolio lender, and thought I'd share how the conversation went and what their products look like. I'll hit the high notes of the conversation, then afterward I have a few questions. I welcome any additional thoughts folks have...

2 products, their conventional loan and what he called a "mod/rehab investor loan":

  • Conventional: 80% LTV, 4.75%, 30 year fixed
    • Non-portfolio; sold to Fannie/Freddie
    • Recommended this to me for my first 3 deals because I haven't met my max of 4 Fannie/Freddie loans (I have 1 for my primary residence)
    • When I pointed out that conventional doesn't include rehab costs, he said I should be buying properties with "minimal rehab" when starting out. He said stay away from hard money if I can.
    • Rehab costs that I provide out-of-pocket are put into escrow, held by the bank, and paid to the contractors only when certain milestones are hit and the work is completed to the bank's satisfaction
  • Mod/rehab investor loan: 60% LTV, 1 year ARM, 4.75%, 2 points, 700 credit score
    • Portfolio: held in-house and not sold to Fannie/Freddie
    • He did NOT need to see deal analysis to make a lending decision; only wanted the address so he could personally do a drive-by and look it up on his own
    • Said he would be using tax assessment valuation to determine market value, which struck me as incorrect
    • Rehab costs are loaned by them, are put into escrow, and paid to the contractors only when certain milestones are hit and the work is completed to the bank's satisfaction

So, now a few questions, if I may:

  • His advice to use conventional mortgages for my first 3 deals makes sense because the terms are better. Is there any reason I should not do this?
  • I have a private lender lined up for down payment support on my first deal. If I use a conventional loan on a house that's livable, but could use some updating (paint and carpet), will a hard money lender loan me just the money for the rehab? Or is, say, $15k not enough for it to be worth their while?
  • Are the bank's escrow policies, for both conventional and portfolio loans, normal? Particularly the conventional, because I would expect the bank to not care about rehab with conventional loans. Maybe it's just a courtesy? It's not unwelcomed (I could use the oversight), but it struck me as strange...
  • How are those terms on the mod/rehab loan?
  • Shouldn't he want to see the deal analysis for the mod/rehab loan?

Again, first call with a portfolio lender, so I'd love a sanity check on how it went before I call the next one. I promise not to post one of these for every phone call. =)

Thanks!

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
10y

@Matt Powell The underwriting does become more strict for properties 5-10.  An invaluable resource I have found is the Fannie Mae Eligibility Matrix (Link Below).  It will take a bit of time to understand it, but when you do, it explains what you need for loans 1-5, then 5-10...what credit score, reserve requirements etc. Also if you do have questions for lender specific things...touch base with @Upen Patel. He is a mortgage broker who is very knowledgeable.  He does the normal Fannie/Freddie loans...but then many other types of lending on top of that too. 

https://www.fanniemae.com/content/eligibility_information/eligibility-matrix.pdf

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    10y

    This doesnt directly answer your questions....but I want to point out you can have 10 Fannie Mae loans.  Some banks will only issue 4 of them, but that is an internal guideline to a particular bank.  The guidelines for Fannie are currently 10 loans.  During the financial crisis they did drop the limit to 4, but have subsequently raised it back to 10.  So really your first 10 properties should be Fannie Mae loans, as they will have the best terms by far.

  • Catonsville, MD · Member since 2014 · 89 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Russell Brazil. I just found this article, which is explaining lots about conventional mortgages for investments. The OP explains that Fannie Mae has separate underwriting criteria for your first 4 ("DU Pure") and for the remaining 5 through 10 ("Multiple Financed Properties"). According to the post, some lenders only participate in the DU Pure program (first 4), while others participate in the Multiple Finances Properties program, which will get you the remaining 6. I guess it varies lender to lender.

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/49/topics/184876-the-ultimate-guide-to-using-conventional-mortgages-to-expand-your-portfolio

  • W Hartford, CT · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 77 votes
    10y

    He's right. Fannie will finance through property #10. By property #5, you'll need a 720 and extra assets (down payment minimum increases, reserves increase).

    A thing to note here is you can't get an investor down payment on these- no gifts or seconds on a investment purchase. Both GSE's want to see skin in the game- and likely on the portfolio side they wouldn't let you take a second as down payment. Also on the renovation loan, look into something like Fannie Homestyle where you can renovate 1 unit investment properties with 20% (or 15% if you want the MI and have an MI company willing to write it).

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    10y

    @Matt Powell The underwriting does become more strict for properties 5-10.  An invaluable resource I have found is the Fannie Mae Eligibility Matrix (Link Below).  It will take a bit of time to understand it, but when you do, it explains what you need for loans 1-5, then 5-10...what credit score, reserve requirements etc. Also if you do have questions for lender specific things...touch base with @Upen Patel. He is a mortgage broker who is very knowledgeable.  He does the normal Fannie/Freddie loans...but then many other types of lending on top of that too. 

    https://www.fanniemae.com/content/eligibility_information/eligibility-matrix.pdf

  • Catonsville, MD · Member since 2014 · 89 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    Does this apply to just the more strict underwriting rules for loans 5-10, or for the first 4 as well?

    What is "a second"?

  • W Hartford, CT · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 77 votes
    10y

    Any investment purchase Fannie or Freddie, even if you qualify with the payment. It's partially to prevent fraud/straw buyers on investment purchases, and partially to see you have skin in the game.

    A second is a second mortgage or second loan.

  • Catonsville, MD · Member since 2014 · 89 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    @Ryan Gillette So if I wanted to use private money for the down payment on a Fannie/Freddie loan, what are my options? Put the private lender on the loan?

  • W Hartford, CT · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 77 votes
    10y

    That's the only option. They would have to go on the loan as a co-borrower. Both names would go on title, both would go on the note.

  • Catonsville, MD · Member since 2014 · 89 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    @Ryan Gillette What about portfolio lenders? They have their own underwriting criteria, so are they open to private loans for down payment? Or would they accept a hard money loan?

  • W Hartford, CT · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 77 votes
    10y

    It doesn't hurt to ask, but it's low odds you'd find a portfolio lender willing to make that loan. Usually the criteria is similar- they just make exceptions when there's compensating factors or can employ a little common sense. Objectively - not you personally, just this type of situation - there's still the fact the borrower has nothing to lose, no incentive to repay aside from credit damage, and there's the possibility it's not even the borrower buying it.

  • Upen PatelPro Member
    Lender · Nationwide Lender · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 814 votes
    10y

    @Russell Brazil Thanks for the mention.

    @Matt Powell Any lender conventional or private will want to be in 1st position. I doubt you will find a private lender willing to give you the down payment and be in 2nd position.

    If you are buying property below market value or in need of rehab, then buy it will HML/Private Lender, let it season for 6 months and then do a refi to conventional with new appraisal. This is one way to buy without putting money in.

  • Business Owner/Investor · Millersville, MD · Member since 2015 · 191 posts · 71 votes
    10y

    @Matt Powell

    I do HML for Small balance (Less than 25K). When are you free to talk?

  • Catonsville, MD · Member since 2014 · 89 posts · 21 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Upen Patel:

    @Russell Brazil Thanks for the mention.

    @Matt Powell Any lender conventional or private will want to be in 1st position. I doubt you will find a private lender willing to give you the down payment and be in 2nd position.

    If you are buying property below market value or in need of rehab, then buy it will HML/Private Lender, let it season for 6 months and then do a refi to conventional with new appraisal. This is one way to buy without putting money in.

    Upen, can you expand on the private lender scenario you mentioned above? Do you mean buy it outright with cash from a HML or private lender, or do you mean use them for a loan?

  • Business Owner/Investor · Millersville, MD · Member since 2015 · 191 posts · 71 votes
    10y

    @Upen Patel

    Upen, it is extremely rare to find any HML that will do 100% of balance while taking a 1st without some substantial point requirements, and very high interest. I would highly caution anyone who is offered this to stay away, as they will almost surely require an "application fee" of some sort, only to deny you, and keep your money.

    @Matt Powell

    Upen is a highly regarded lender in the forums. I would recommend talking to him, charles fitzgerald (Did I spell that right?), Bill bloom, Charles Rattley, or Don Stone.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Matt Powell:

    Does this apply to just the more strict underwriting rules for loans 5-10, or for the first 4 as well?

    What is "a second"?

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