Raising money from friends and discussing their returns

Raising money from friends and discussing their returns

Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2016 · 132 posts · 45 votes

I am currently looking at a great property in my local community. It is about 500k and i need a little over 100k for the Down payment but I thought it would be better to raise 150k and have a little less on the mortgage and there are multiple friends I think would like to invest so I was hoping to have 3 of them each put in 50k for the total needed. Now what I'm wondering is the 7% return they see on their money, is that annual return or is that supposed to be monthly? Right now I'm running it 80/20 they will receive 80% of cash flow and me 20%. With that split it will come out to 7% annual return about $3500 a year/each. Assuming the 7% annual return is enough how should I go about getting their initial investment out of the property if there isn't a whole lot of forced appreciation I can do to the property? There is a little, but not enough to justify refinancing that 150k back into the loan 2 years later. not unless rents start to climb in my area which I feel as though that is a bad gamble to bet on just to get this deal done. So do I do some sort of step return of investment? Give them 50% of investment back with a refinance and then adjust the split to 60/40 or something to where they are still getting 7% annually? The whole math of how they make their money back and how I am supposed to account for that in the deal has always kind of baffled me. If there is a good resource for figuring out how to run the numbers on deals like this I would be greatly appreciative for pointing me in its direction.

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Rental Property Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2018 · 90 posts · 66 votes
7y

I agree with @Tom S.

This specific deal you are talking about has a rather low ROI. Maybe your friends would be happy with that but I believe the majority of people would pass on this.

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  • Real Estate Investor · Burlington, VT · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Chris Marshall  Typically returns are measured annually, and personally I feel 7% isn't a great return, especially for 2nd position (bank will have 1st position).  But they are your friends, so it's whatever you can negotiate. 

    That's correct, you won't be able to refi out and pay them back within a few years unless there's some sort of forced appreciation.  They would have to be more long term owners.  

    Regarding your other questions, (btw - a little hard to follow your numbers because you posted it all in one big paragraph), it's really what your friends are looking for, in terms of when to pay them back.

    Before you get too far ahead, run this scenario by the bank.  Many banks won't like the the downpayment funds to be borrowed, or for you to not have any of own own cash into the deal.

    Good luck,

    - Tom

  • Rental Property Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2018 · 90 posts · 66 votes
    7y

    I agree with @Tom S.

    This specific deal you are talking about has a rather low ROI. Maybe your friends would be happy with that but I believe the majority of people would pass on this.

  • Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2016 · 132 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    @Colton Fairchild @Tom S.

    So in these types of deals is typically the entire deal amount being raised? In syndications do they not use any bank financing? The entire deal is purchased using raised funds?

  • Rental Property Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2018 · 90 posts · 66 votes
    7y

    @Chris Marshall No, you wouldn't want to raise the entire $500k. This would kill any profit you intend to make because you have too much capital in a deal that isn't producing a ton of cash flow. Syndicators definitely use financing... not just bank financing either. There are many non-traditional lending options available. Don't get caught up on trying to start a syndication fund for one property though (the legal fees will be far too high). Just reach out to a RE attorney and explain what you are trying to do. 

    You should ask your friends what type of return they would expect to make annually from a real estate investment. They might say 15% and now you know what your target is. If the property you are looking at doesn't meet that criteria then figure out what purchase price, rate, LTV, etc. you would need to get it for to work. If you can't get it to work no matter what you do then it is most likely not a solid investment.

  • Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    Agreed with what others have said. 7% is low. Most of my investors won't get out of bed unless they think they can well exceed 12%. Depends on risk adjustment, though.

    It is good to start talking with them about real estate generally though. Figure out what would get them interested, write that down, and also keep looking for other investors. You should strive to be able to get soft commits on at least 200% of the money you need to raise because people will back out for unanticipated reasons, even if your deal checks all of their boxes.

  • Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2016 · 132 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    @Taylor L. @Colton Fairchild ok this is starting to make a little more sense now. I’m not actually syndicating the deal just structuring the repayment of my friends investments like one, instead of structuring it like debt. So it sounds like this property just has too high of an asking price. Although it hits all the check boxes the bank wants it still isn’t a good property for an investment?

  • Rental Property Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2018 · 90 posts · 66 votes
    7y

    @Chris Marshall Run the same scenario with this property but assume you purchase it for $400k or $450k w/ 20% down, or whatever LTV you want to use. Then see what it does to your overall return.

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2018 · 82 posts · 123 votes
    7y

    The return of your deal is not 7%. You also need to incorporate the funds from a hypothetical sale or refinancing event. This is commonly illustrated by doing a 5 year scenario where you sell the property at the end of that term. Figure out your NOI and apply an assumed cap rate for the sale, then subtract sales costs such as a broker commission, and then subtract the remaining mortgage balance. Add the residual amount to the returns and use an IRR calculation to value it property. Best practice is also to sensitize the cap rate upon sale, so that you understand how that will impact the IRR.

  • London · Member since 2019 · 722 posts · 386 votes
    7y

    Chris,

    Why do you think this is not a syndication? Multiple passive investors seems to be your intention. How are you legally avoiding a state or SEC registration?

  • Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2016 · 132 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    @John Corey this is my first attempt at even trying to run the numbers on a syndication.

    So even if it’s my friends who’ve I’ve known for years invest with me and the repayment is through equity that is what makes it a syndication? I figured this would be more of just creative financing. I don’t actually know what constitutes a syndication. I haven’t been to a lawyer yet about structuring a deal like this. I figured I’d do that after I found a property that would work and then figure out how it should be structured after I got a sales contract on it.

    So is it that there are limited partners who receive equity in the deal is that what makes a syndication regardless whether they are accredited or non accredited? And then I’d have to do the whole filling stuff and whatever goes along with a syndication?

  • Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2016 · 132 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    @Kaiser J.

    What if I know going in that this is more of a long term equity build deal? I know that in the short term there won’t be much equity or forced appreciation but this is a property in my hometown in the downtown portion right next to the court house. We are growing and the city and our community is making huge strides in trying to bring up our downtown area. We are a touristy town because we have a large number of national parks within a nice driving distance and a bunch of wineries in our area.

    Also our state (Missouri) also ranked 6th in the nation for tech jobs. Between cape girardue, Farmington (where I live, about an hour south of STL) and st.louis they are trying to grow our tech industries. So although it may not be 2 years down the line where we have appreciated I do believe that our area will grow rapidly in the coming 5-15 years.

    Do factors like this need to be accounted for and would you try to structure the debt differently because of it?

  • Member since 2019 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    7y

    You seem to be doing the right research, but need to do more due diligence and answer your own questions. The answers are ALL out there. I would suggest a mentor or partners and several individuals within this thread would be ideal for you. 

    Find several deals and structure a VALUE-ADD components to get to the desired 12-15% ROI. You should also be FULL aware of your own IRR, before offering expected returns on a property you haven't secured. FYI

  • Rental Property Investor · Central, FL · Member since 2016 · 950 posts · 821 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chris Marshall:

    @John Corey this is my first attempt at even trying to run the numbers on a syndication.

    So even if it’s my friends who’ve I’ve known for years invest with me and the repayment is through equity that is what makes it a syndication? I figured this would be more of just creative financing. I don’t actually know what constitutes a syndication. I haven’t been to a lawyer yet about structuring a deal like this. I figured I’d do that after I found a property that would work and then figure out how it should be structured after I got a sales contract on it.

    So is it that there are limited partners who receive equity in the deal is that what makes a syndication regardless whether they are accredited or non accredited? And then I’d have to do the whole filling stuff and whatever goes along with a syndication?

     This is just private money. Not a syndication.  You need to find a way that works for your friends. Whether it be equity position or a 5/7/10 year payment plan. 

        I’m almost finished with a deal and using a friend to pay the down payment, I’m paying him back at 10% interest only in quarterly payments and then I’ll buy down the balance in 10% chunks.  So each time I have 20% of the total amount I pay him and then my interest only payment goes down to the new balance. 

         It’s also a ongoing loan with no end date and a 1 year call provision. So no matter how long I have the loan out once he is done investing with me he calls the loan and I have 1 year to pay the remainder back. 

  • Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Chris Marshall you're offering a return to equity investors who will earn a return passively, therefore you are offering a security and must go through the steps to properly syndicate. It doesn't matter if they're friends and/or family. You'd have to do all the legal work, which would be too pricey for this deal and wash out your return.

  • London · Member since 2019 · 722 posts · 386 votes
    7y

    @Chris Marshall

    https://images.app.goo.gl/vF7DawZoPGCo5gJ67 is a short recording by a securities lawyer well know to the BP community. He explains what a security is.

    If you google Howey test, you will find other descriptions in text format. There are 4 elements in most lists. The Supreme Court set the test and the SEC uses it. Your relationship to the cash investors does not factor into what is a security and what is not. Even a loan from a friend might end up being a security.

    Once you master the topic, you can scale your business. In other words, knowing what a security is and how to correctly raise funds is something to master if you want to grow.

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