Is filing a lien necessary

Is filing a lien necessary

Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes

Hi guys! Ok, so here's the situation....I'm a newbie RE Investor and had plans of going into business with a friend who I've known for over 20 years. This guy has been in the RE business for the past 20 plus years and seems to know the business very well. I never had any reason not to trust him and was excited to get started. Soooo, the first deal we agreed to was somewhat of a JV on a flip project he's doing here locally in California. We had agreed that I would fund half of the rehab ($40k) and receive an 18% ROI. He took me to the property, we met with the contractor that was going to oversee the rehab, we looked at comps in the area, etc. The 5 page agreement he provided me with is titled as a 'SECURED PROMISSORY NOTE' for the amount of $40k plus interest of 18%, and on the last page, states at the bottom, * SECURITY - NOTE SECURED BY 2ND LIEN POSITION DEED OF TRUST ON SUBJECT PROPERTY, and then lists the address of the property. Now, this secured promissory note isn't notarized, he just signed it and gave me a copy. I've since spoken with with a few people in the RE business and found out that it's meaningless unless it's been notarized, so I plan on having him draft a new one up so that we can have that done. HOWEVER, I never looked into that until just recently, again, because I figured I could trust this guy. But here's the thing, he and I were looking at doing a JV deal with a team we met out of state just last month. This was going to be a flip we had lined up and we were going to be using hard money for. So the agreement was that I would provide 10% of the down payment, plus the 3 points, and he would cover the carrying costs. So my total investment on this deal was approximately $24k. Since he had several flips under his belt, we were going to fund the deal through his LLC in order to get a better rate with the hard money lender, so I wired my $24k into his LLC account to cover my half of the deal. Come to find out, he had some back taxes that he owed and therefore the HML had to change the terms on us and the numbers were no longer going to make sense, so we backed out of the deal. Not a big deal, I was disappointed it didn't work out, but figured I'd just find another one. Wellll, when I asked my so-called friend to wire the $24k back into my account, guess what....he didn't have it!! He claims to have only used half of it and has since wired $7k back to me and claims to be working on the rest. Mind you, I just found this out this past Thursday. So obviously he's not to be trusted and has ruined a friendship as well as a potential business partnership. But my question to you guys is, (and I apologize for such a long post) after I get the new 'Secured promissory note' notarized, should I, and CAN I also have a lien put on the property I invested the $40k in? I've been looking up 'Liens' and I'm not sure if my situation would qualify for a 'Mechanical Lien' or not, or if there's some other step I can take to secure my $40k. Any information or suggestions anyone has would greatly be appreciated. Thanks guys!

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
10y

A mechanics lien, or any other "lien"....no. You should have a separate document, that "deed of trust" referenced in the Note.  So you know, the Note is the Obligation to pay, the Deed Of Trust is the security instrument that secures the note, putting the property up as collateral.  And yes, generally that Deed Of Trust has to be notarized in order to be recorded.  You may want to check the 1st mtg....it may prohibit a second mtg, which could cause the first to foreclose.  I'd be talking to the first to see if your buddy is in default, as it seems he has issues.

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  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    A mechanics lien, or any other "lien"....no. You should have a separate document, that "deed of trust" referenced in the Note.  So you know, the Note is the Obligation to pay, the Deed Of Trust is the security instrument that secures the note, putting the property up as collateral.  And yes, generally that Deed Of Trust has to be notarized in order to be recorded.  You may want to check the 1st mtg....it may prohibit a second mtg, which could cause the first to foreclose.  I'd be talking to the first to see if your buddy is in default, as it seems he has issues.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Wayne Brooks, thank you for your response and I will definitely look into having a Deed of Trust drafted up and notarized. I know this particular property is owned by my ex-friend and his LLC, however the 1st Trust Deed Holder is his PM Investor. So like you said, it appears as though I need to have a meeting with his 1st, which I will definitely do. Thank you so much for the advice!

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    You are getting bad advice @Glenn Tracy. Notes do not get notarized. As Wayne said, the deed of trust must be notarized in order to record it. You are throwing a lot of money around not to be getting good professional advice from disinterested parties.

    With no associated deed of trust, your loan is unsecured and is really just an IOU. It sounds like you have no legal recourse to any property. In addition, with an 18% return, your note is probably usurious in CA unless you secured it with real estate and used a licensed CA real estate broker for origination. Money should always be wired to a title company using escrow to manage the paperwork – and there must be paperwork. Poorly documented handshake deals rarely work out, even among friends.

    I hate to say this, but with the amount of money involved, and a "friend" with dubious integrity, you might consider spending a few hundred dollars and speak to a good attorney. Though I fear much of your money is gone, a good attorney could review your situation and possibly help you salvage something. Perhaps somehow turn your loan into an interest in your friend's LLC (with all the skeletons in the closet?) or a partial ownership of the property. Or, assuming your friend would sign, a friendly real estate broker could help reinstate this loan with proper paperwork and a recording.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Hi @Jeff S., thank you for your feedback.  And from what you and Wayne are saying, a notarized Deed of Trust is looking like my best option at this point.  I've definitely thought about speaking with a good RE attorney as well.  And you are absolutely right, I was careless in trusting him and throwing that money around without taking the proper steps in making sure those funds were secure.  This has definitely been a lesson learned, and one that I won't be making again.  Hopefully I'll be able to secure the $40k investment with the Deed of Trust, and only time will tell if he pays me the remaining $14k he said he'd have back to me by the end of this week, but I'm not holding my breath. 

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Jeff S.  Sorry, it didn't highlight your name on that last post.  Thank you again. 

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Huge THANKS to @Wayne Brooks and @Jeff S. for the advice!  I met with a Broker friend of mine today who was nice enough to take the time to write up a 2nd Deed of Trust.  I then went and met with my so-called friend to get his signature and have it notarized.  So now tomorrow I'll be heading to the Recorders office first thing in the morning and have it recorded.  After that, I'll just have to hope for the best, but it's definitely been a lesson learned.  Thanks again guys! 

  • Real Estate Investment Attorney · Kingsville, MD · Member since 2016 · 643 posts · 408 votes
    10y

    @Glenn Tracy

    If your waiting doesn't get all of your money back, you can file a civil suit against your former friend. 

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @Glenn Tracy Be sure to still touch base with the first to see if they're current, and verify if the borrower getting a second was a violation of the first, just so you know.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Wayne Brooks, thanks for the heads up, I will definitely do that.  I actually have a copy of the first as well, but don't really see anything in there that says having a second would be a violation.  But then again, there's a lot of fine print and I'm not exactly sure what wording I should be looking for. 

  • Real Estate Investor · State College , PA · Member since 2009 · 594 posts · 173 votes
    10y

    @Glenn TracyI

    I had a friend do a very similar deal and lost 50k when the builder went belly up.  Plus he lost a bunch of money in lawyer fees, trying to get some of his money back.  I myself would be worried the guy is running out of money and just buying time with my money.  I would want to  see some proof of funds, or something to say he cant get the job done and has enough personal financial stability.   

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Rich Baer Thanks for the advice.  So far he's making good on the $24k by wiring 3 separate transfers in less than a week, one for $3k, one for $4k, and then tomorrow supposedly another $5k, and then he said I'll have the remaining $12k by next Wednesday at the latest, so we'll see.  But regardless, I still want to make sure I take the proper steps in securing my $40k investment as much as possible, and as long as the 2nd Deed of Trust isn't a violation of the first, I think I'll be okay.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Hey @Account Closed,

    There really is no telling what this guy is doing with the funds.  He has several projects going on at once, 2 of which he's had his PM guy fund for a total of close to $900k.  On the particular property I invested the $40k on, it shows the purchase price of $469,500, which is what he told me his PM guy gave him, paying all cash for the property, but then the first TD amount shows $590,000. (?)  So someone who's been in the business for a while was saying that maybe that additional $120k is a rehab loan and he needed my $40k to cover the carrying costs, but I don't know.  Like I said, there's no telling.  But what I'm thinking about doing is having a little sit down with him and give him the opportunity to come clean on what exactly is going on.  Like I said before, so far he's making good on the $24k that he used without telling me, which is a good thing, but none the less, I'll still be doing whatever I can to secure that additional $40k.

  • Real Estate Investor · State College , PA · Member since 2009 · 594 posts · 173 votes
    10y

    @Glenn Tracy

    I hear you Glenn.  IMO a second position mortgage is a risky spot and I would have the same concerns.  There was a BP  podcast on some guy who ran a company, and all they did was buy second mortgage that began to default  They paid something like 10 cents on the dollar.  Was very interesting.  In any event they got them so cheap cause there is usually little equity to cover them when things go bad.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Account Closed

    Ugh, not what I want to hear for sure, but I know it's reality. I thought about speaking with a lawyer and seeing if there was some way I could somehow get that $40k back through the profits of his other flips. And the reason I say that, is because on the promissory note it states, and I quote, "Purpose - Borrower and Holder agree that the general purpose of the loan is to utilize funds to complete all projects owned by and under management of "" LLC and its Managing member "", and all construction and rehab." But from what I'm finding out is that the Secured Promissory Note doesn't carry much weight, so I don't know. I guess that's something a RE attorney would have to answer.

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 251 posts · 123 votes
    10y

    Keep in mind that if your friend or his company owes back taxes and the IRS or state already has a judgment against him, they could have taken those funds from his or his company's bank account without his knowledge or approval. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have revealed the tax issues etc. to you in advance but I have known people who have had major tax issues who were surprised in that fashion when they didn't think it was an issue any longer. Sometimes a tax issue can lay dormant for many years but rear it's ugly head at an inopportune moment. I've no clue if that is the case in this instance but it's something to consider. I saw this type of scenario develop with a friend of mine. Someone I had known for years and who I highly respected and still believe him to be of very high moral character. Fortunately I didn't have any money involved in this scenario but this friend  really thought that because the IRS hadn't taken any action against him in many years that the issue had gone away. Combine that with the fact that he found the whole thing to be highly embarrassing, he did not discuss the potential problem with people, even when they were solicited to invest in his deals. Point being, his motives were not bad and he was acting in good faith from what he thought was true. 

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 113 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Hey @Bill Hamilton,

    Thanks for your response.  My understanding is that his CPA is helping him resolve these back tax issues as we speak, supposedly getting him a much smaller settlement, but I haven't really spoken to him too much on this topic.  Definitely something to consider and an interesting point none the less.  

  • Real Estate Investor · State College , PA · Member since 2009 · 594 posts · 173 votes
    10y

    @Glenn Tracy

    Keep us posted.  Hope it all works out great, and most likely it will.

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