LLC holds real estate and partner wants out.

LLC holds real estate and partner wants out.

Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

We have a family partnership that owns two rental properties (a Single Family House and a Duplex). It started out as a simple partnership in 1995 (Dad & Mom, #1 Son & Wife, #2 Son & Wife). After the unexpected death of my brother in law in 2006 and the complications that ensued by not having a clear operating agreement for the partnership, we agreed to form an LLC. We did so in 2007 with the assistance of an attorney who specializes in business formations of this nature. The property titles were quit claimed to the LLC at that time. Each partner owns "units" in the LLC. The operating agreement clarifies what to do in the event of the death of a partner or in the event a partner wants to sell their "membership interest" and "economic interest" in the LLC.

At this juncture, my sister-in-law wants to leave the partnership and invest her money in other real estate holdings with her sons. She will be selling her "membership interest" and "economic interest". She has consulted with a financial planner and he told her what information she needs to have for tax purposes and other financial planning purposes. She then made this request:

"I have to have copies of all old schedules of depreciation, improvements, and the years we changed percentage of ownership." 

This is complicated, because prior to 2007 the records were not well kept. Many years ago our tax preparer created a depreciation schedule for each property, as best he could, with the information we could provide. Our tax preparer died in 2015, and with him some of the memory about the records and how they were produced, although we do have clear records from recent years. The Duplex was purchased in 1979 by Dad (and Mom) and partial interest in it was later sold to the two sons (and their wives). The house next door was purchased in 1995. The shares were originally uneven: Dad/Mom (2/5 share), #1 Son/Wife ( 1/5 share), #2 Son/Wife (2/5 share). After the death of Son #1 in 2006 and prior to the formation of the LLC in 2007, we decided to change the percentage of ownership to Dad/Mom (1/3), #1 Son's Widow (1/3), #2 Son/Wife (1/3), via some other property exchanges. Here's how I fit in here... Dad/Mom are my father-in-law and mother-in-law, #1 Son's Widow is my sister-in-law, #2 Son is my husband.

From my understanding of the LLC operating agreement, my sister-in-law will be selling her interest in the business, her "units", at a price we agree upon, based primarily on the current fair market value of the properties. The remaining partners have first right to buy her interest and intend to do so. The properties will not be sold and no title transfer is necessary, as they are held in the LLC and will remain so. No mortgages or other encumbrances exist on these properties. Why do you think a financial planner would tell her she needs more details about the properties, such as depreciation and improvement information from the distant past? She mentioned "stepped up basis value at the time of her husband's death" but Executor Deed transfers occurred in early 2007 a few months after the death of her husband. She also mentioned she wants to do a 1031 Exchange by using her share to buy into another property with her son, but it seems to me that would not apply here. Am I missing something?

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Dave FosterBusiness Member
Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
9y

@Marcia Maynard Lots of moving parts that good financial counsel is needed for. The K-1s of the LLC should rule. It sounds like they are trying to assert something that differs from the LLC returns. Hard to tell. One thing I know - she does not have a valid 1031 exchange potential. She is selling membership interest in a business entity not real estate.

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  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    9y

    @Marcia Maynard Lots of moving parts that good financial counsel is needed for. The K-1s of the LLC should rule. It sounds like they are trying to assert something that differs from the LLC returns. Hard to tell. One thing I know - she does not have a valid 1031 exchange potential. She is selling membership interest in a business entity not real estate.

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  • Escrow Officer · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    In the transaction you're describing--she sells her membership units to the other LLC members--she would not be able to use that money for a 1031 exchange. Equity in a business entity is not of like kind with interest in real property. I think her motivation to do an exchange might be one of the reasons she's seeking this documentation. There are steps that closely held partnerships/LLCs can follow to make her share of the property 1031 exchange-eligible, e.g., she trades her membership interest in the LLCs for the equivalent fee simple ownership in the underlying properties and then immediately sells that fee simple interest to you for cash. Transactions like this don't add significant cost or paperwork, but you would need to be sure to use an attorney and a CPA to structure and paper it correctly. She would need a professional to figure out how her basis or recaptured depreciation would be affected, as well. Hope this helps.
  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Marcia Maynard It would be a lot better to draw agreement without an LLLC, and now you need to treat her right, so she can exit without going to court. Good luck.

    The LLC is well drafted and provides a sound business structure. It's actually what will make this transition go smoothly. We are a close family, on very good terms and we are all treating each other right. No opposition here, no need for court. My question is about the information that she is asking for, on the advice of her financial planner. Also, any insight on how such a transition might play out.

  • Escrow Officer · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    As a follow-up, I'd caveat that from your post the specific family connection to your sister-in-law (say, is she your husband's sister?) could add an additional wrinkle to her ability to do a 1031 exchange because of the related-party rules in the regulations for exchanges. That'd be something else her, or your LLC's, lawyer or CPA would need to look into.
  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Dave Foster and @Account Closed. Thank you for your responses. I thought it wouldn't be possible for my sisiter-in-law to do a 1031 Exchange, but maybe there is a creative way for her to do so. She'll need to sort that out with her advisors. She has copies of the the LLC tax returns with their K1s and Depreciation Details. But she hasn't been involved much in the properties and how they are performing, before or since her husband's death. My husband and I have been managing them. Perhaps she just needs us to present the information in a different way that's easier to understand. I looked at the Depreciation Detail documents prepared for tax purposes and think I'll draft a summary for her about what they mean.

    She's my sister-in-law because she was married to my husband's brother. It all started with my father-in-law "Dad" investing in residential rental property with his two sons, in a community property state. We have two LLCs, the first one for the business we have with family members and the second one for the business that my husband and I own by ourselves.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Her financial planner is either ignorant to the agreement or smart enough to try and jack up her buy out.

    Either way you should simply turn it over to your lawyer and have him pilot the sale.

  • Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    All the information should be in K-1s and partnership returns (1065s). I'm not sure what a financial planner is trying to figure out, unless they don't understand that the LLC basis is irrelevant to a member's economic interest. Someone with a CPA can correct me if I'm wrong. Capital gains will be a function of the member's initial investment and the sale of their interest. Things like accumulated depreciation and future capital gains will not apply ... that "stays" with the LLC, so to speak.

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    I appreciate the insight you all have shared. I'd like to tag a few other folks too for their thoughts...   @Jay Hinrichs and @Bill Exeter, other 1031 folks and any CPAs..... what do you think? Indeed, we now know my sister-in-law wants to do a 1031 Exchange with her share. We want to help her achieve her goal if possible. What do we need to know, since the property is held in an LLC? What information does she need to have ready to go? Is it even possible?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Marcia Maynard  @Dave Foster not really my area of expertise but could you change how you hold title to a TIC then 1031 her share out ??? just a thought.

  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Marcia Maynard  @Dave Foster not really my area of expertise but could you change how you hold title to a TIC then 1031 her share out ??? just a thought.

     There's all sorts of issues with her doing a 1031.

    1. If you simply distribute her a TIC % of the property in exchange for her membership in the LLC and she sells her % back to the LLC then she took title to the property primarily to resell it and that would probably disallow her exchange upon audit.

    2. If you want the LLC to keep the property as you stated then you would have to perform #1 above and she would have to then sell her % back to the LLC. Now there's probably related party issues.

    3. If you purchase her membership interest in the LLC then she cannot do a 1031 because she has not sold real estate. She has sold a membership interest in an entity that owns property.

    It sounds like she's anticipating ignoring duly filed and recorded tax reportings from the LLC in favor of some creative interpretation that she's being advised on. with some digging there may be some option if we were to dig into the real nitty gritty of the issues. But this one has potential disaster written all over it.

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  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 177 posts · 64 votes
    9y

    I agree that through interpreting what she is asking for it sounds like she is trying to get creative with the 1031. I would be very careful not just for the LLC but for her sake since she is being advised by someone who is supposed to have her best interest in mind. You didn't specify but if she is taking advise from a true financial planner, I would really encourage her to seek the help of a CPA specializing in real estate or a tax/real estate attorney. Financial Planner is a very loose term and you would be surprised by how little some of them know. Being creative is not inherently bad as long as you take advantage of the tax code and not break the tax code.

    During an audit the LLC could end up incurring attorney fees to get out of a mess you didn't mean to get involved in.

  • Attorney · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 224 posts · 126 votes
    9y
    Dave Foster is dead on. As described, there is no way to exchange this LLC interest (which is personal property) for a real estate interest. There are some ways to buyout members of a LLC prior to or after 1031 exchanges but the exchange of personal property interest for a real property interest is simply not "like kind" and thus disqualified. The documents the CPA is requesting may be helpful for auditing the requesting party's prior returns but at the end of the day the operating agreement controls the mechanism for the buyout process, which presumably includes how the membership interest is valued/appraised. Unless the requested documents are required or contemplated by the Operating agreement as part of the buyout process, there is probably no obligation to deliver them.
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