Are car loans really that bad?

Are car loans really that bad?

Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes

I recently posted some questions regarding financial strategy involving car loan debt, student loand debt, mortgage debt and cash for new acquisitions.

There is a strong contingency of folks that claim you should never borrow money for a car and that if you owe money on a car, you should pay it off. Because a car depreciates.

I actually don't think having a car loan is necessarily bad if you are financing it at below 4 percent. The argument of "it depreciates" doesn't change my opinion because it will still depreciate even if it's paid off. If you plan on keeping the car for 5 to 6 years, the costs for maintenance and depreciation will be the same no matter what.

Lets assume the car payment does not increase your DTI ratio above what will allow you to qualify for a mortgage. Now assume you have 15K. Let's assume that you also need a new car and also want to buy a house. Why not buy the car with a loan at 3% and use the rest of the money to pay for DP and closing costs on a house? In my mind, there is no difference in doing this and doing an 80/20 split on a mortgage (100% financing that so many investors regard as the holy grail). Except it is better because although the car will depreciate, it could be sold in a pinch if you had a couple thousand to cover the deficiency.

So, what I am saying is, in the right scenario, financing your vehicle, rather than paying cash, does not need to be considered any differently than any other form of raising borrowed money. Thoughts on this?

For the sake of a comparative discussion, lets discard the argument that you buy a 2000 beater as an alternative.

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Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
13y

Since I have done BOTH things mentioned here, buying several cars at a Government Auction and bought a 2012 Hyundai Genesis for my wife, since she works in her car. Currently, I drive a 2002 Chevrolet Trailblazer that I bought at a Government GSA auction in Colorado, paid a total of $7,100 for it, cash. It is nearing 200,000 miles and time to start looking for something newer. Personally, I have not bought a new vehicle since my 1988 Cadillac Sedan de Ville. I really like the 2013 Chevrolet Trucks, priced around $40,000. I easily have enough money to pay cash for it, but with financing in the 0-3% range, WHY? I just made some offers to buy some houses, $40,000 each, that rent for $795 a month.

As an investor, do I spend $40,000 on a new truck, and just have a new truck, or do I buy a rental for $40,000, put $10,000 down on a new truck, collect $795 in rent, make a $500 car payment, and have both the truck and the rental?

I have purchased many used cars, even at auctions, and NONE of them have Sirius XM, Onboard navigation, heated/cooled leather seats, etc.... As a matter of fact, the last truck I bought at auction had MANUAL windows, MANUAL locks, NO cruise control and a cassette player.

Why are we all working so hard if not to buy some of the nicer things in life? At some point, we need to enjoy the fruits of our labors!

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  • Real Estate Investor · Central, TX · Member since 2012 · 479 posts · 165 votes
    13y

    Mike M, I totally agree with you. Obviously you are reaping the benefits of your labor, which is what we are all after, I presume. Having a huge net worth and living like your're broke isn't my idea of success.

    There is no hard and fast rule on whether one should finance or pay cash. There are too many variables to list that would impact this decision. Someone who is broke but has and expects to have a steady job for the next 6 years can go finance a vehicle because he has a low risk for not being able to make the payment. Someone who has $50,000 cash but is not confident of their employment status in 6 months may choose to pay cash and possibly spend less.

    There is no right or wrong answer, just preference and risk tolerance.

  • Investor · Appleton, WI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 464 votes
    13y

    Brian - I definately follow your train of thought and like I said before, this isn't a rule of right or wrong but rather a good look at strategy and what works for each person.

    I did find it interesting in your summing up of opinions. I am also a young guy, 27, my wife is basically a stay at home mom and we have a 2 year old son. I was one of the guys that stays away from consumer debt but I actually do do "subject to" deals. My last two properties where done this way and right now as we speak I am working on another one. Mind you this is while I am going through a job change, which is our families primary source of income. I think the reason I am so comfortable undertaking this at this time is because my base is so solid, my families living expenses are so low. It allows us to be very nimble and take advantage of opportunities and weather unexpected events pretty easily.

    Again great topic, definately good to think about all the options we have available out there and what opportunities those options lead us to.

  • Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes
    13y

    The problem a lot of people run into with cars is they buy new, finance, and end up still paying the loan a few years later. If they want to sell the car, the car is sometimes worth less than the remaining amount of their loan.

    I think it would be crazy to pay $40,000 cash upfront for a car. Invest it.

    I also don't understand why people want to lease a car for $800+ a month.

    Get a good deal on a car, whether financing or paying cash.

    Don't get a car loan that you'll still be paying a few years later, and end up selling the car for a loss while you're still paying on the loan.

    I paid cash for my car years ago and got a great deal. It's still worth nearly what I paid for it. I didn't buy "new"-- I bought from someone who bought it new and almost never used it.

    I like the "always pay cash" motto, but... there's a limit on that. If it's a huge wad of cash, invest the cash and finance the car. If we're talking <$10,000 of car, I would try to pay cash.

    I know a couple who leases cars and gets new cars every few years. One of their car leases for $800 a month, the other car for $400. That's $1200 for CARS. Insane. And, we're not talking Bentley's here. They have stellar credit, to boot. It's nuts. One of the cars they're still paying the loan for, and if they sell it right now, it's worth less than the amount of their outstanding loan. They would be selling it for a loss. Insane. They probably put tens of thousands of miles on the cars per year combined, so a car warranty is a must for them. But, still... $1200 a month for 2 cars? Sheesh. Maybe for a Ferrari.

    I like nice stuff, nice cars included. But, a couple paying $1200/month for cars?
    I could get a mortgage on a freaking HOUSE for that amount.

    Look for a good deal. Maybe that means buying last year's model that's never been driven, or buying used from someone who never used the car. Think about what the car will be worth a few years down the line-- will you still have a car loan to pay when you want to sell the car, and have to sell it for a loss?

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    We have several friends who are up there in age & we recommend they lease, because a number of times in the last couple of years we have had to unload financed estate vehicles that in most cases were 'under water'.

    A good friend bought his 'spoiled' daughter a nice salvage title SUV & had it repaired.
    Several years later she & the BF went to trade it on a new Camero they were going to finance.
    When she was denied the trade because of the title she had the audacity to complain to her father. " I can't believe you GAVE me a truck that I can't TRADE"
    We still laugh about it & she still drives it!!!!

  • Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Pat L.:
    We have several friends who are up there in age & we recommend they lease, because a number of times in the last couple of years we have had to unload financed estate vehicles that in most cases were 'under water'.

    A good friend bought his 'spoiled' daughter a nice salvage title SUV & had it repaired.
    Several years later she & the BF went to trade it on a new Camero they were going to finance.
    When she was denied the trade because of the title she had the audacity to complain to her father. " I can't believe you GAVE me a truck that I can't TRADE"
    We still laugh about it & she still drives it!!!!

    Ha, wow. If I was her parent, I would be taking that car back in all of 3 seconds. She could, like, get a job, get some credit, and buy her own car. Kids these days. Sheesh.

    Leasing for older people sounds like a good idea. Would leasing work out very well for people who put tens of thousands of miles on a car each year? Are there huge penalties for going over mileages or trading in cars earlier?

  • Real Estate Coach · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2010 · 72 posts · 23 votes
    13y

    Brian,

    Remember this...Buy something that appreciates and lease something that depreciates. You buy a home because goes up in value and you lease a car because it goes down in value.

    The benefits to leasing a new car versus buying a new is car is there is much less risk because as soon as you drive it off the lot it goes down in value, also there is less money out of pocket and a lower monthly payment on a lease.

    When you lease a car the bank guarantees the value of the car at the end of the term so if the car has equity at the end of the term you can pay it off and keep it, you can sell it and pocket the profit but if the car is worth less at the end of the lease, many lenders will negotiate the price with you and if you can't get the price you want you can turn it in at the dealership and walk away.

    If you are going to buy a car buy a used car so you are not paying all of the depreciation, usually a car that is a year or two old can be purchased for much less than a new car.

    Remember to be successful action is the key...

    Marv Rousselow

  • Investor · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Since cash for clunkers, 2/3 year old cars are no longer half price, they are about 25% off of retail when 50% of the repair free driving has been used up.

    There are two options for me:

    1. Lease and get a new car every three years. Zero down, low mileage leases work well for me as I don't drive a ton and I hate maintenance. I am not brand loyal, I drive whatever catches my eye and is offering the best terms at the moment. VW and Chysler/Dodge/Jeep will practically give away a lease. $250-300 a month has you driving a new Passat, 300/Charger or Grand Cherokee. Even better if you can lease it through the business.
    2. Buy brand new and drive it for 10ish years. You know the vehicle history and maintenance so you are sure it has been maintained properly.

    Of course it is better to pay cash for a 5 year old Toyota or Volvo and drive it till the wheels fall off, but I don't want to do that. Life is too short to drive a 10 year old beige Camry.

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    The wife's financially struggling cousin asked me to go with him to a "find it, fix it, flip it", RE seminar.

    He shows up in a fully loaded 5.3, 4x4, 2013 Silverado, with a $399+ a month pmt.
    "Why the NEW truck" I ask
    "I am going to need it if I get into rehabbing" :) :) :)

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Brian Hoyt

    I've never had a car loan, not because I'm opposed to them, just sort of turned out that way. I'm not sure how many cars I've owned maybe 50. I've had a brand new Corvette, a Porsche, SUVs, trucks, vans and convertibles.

    I good friend of mine has 30 cars, mostly because he can, and mostly because he's always bought real estate. The real estate is the bread and butter, the cars are toys.

    I'd rather put nothing down on a house and pay cash for a car, than put nothing down on a car and maybe not be able to buy a house. One time I saw a single wide trailer on the foreclsoure list, the owner had a Cadillac and a Mercedes. Maybe somethings wrong with that picture?

    Besides the tax deductability, I'd just rather borrow for investments and pay cash for fun and toys, but that's just me.

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