How to Tell If You’re Rich

How to Tell If You’re Rich

Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

I got this article from the Apartment Owners Association. I thought it was informative so I want to share with others.

IRS figures show that the top 10% of income earners make 43% of all the income and pay 70% of all the taxes. The 2% of income earners pay approximately half of all income taxes.

If your annual household income is $108k, you are in the top 20% of income earners. If your income exceeds $150k, you are in the top 10%. If your income exceeds $210k, you are in the top 5%. If your household income is $520k, you are in the top 1%.

According to the Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances, a net worth of $416k puts you in the top 20% of American households. You are in the top 10% if your net worth is $952k. This jives with the findings of Dr. Thomas Stanley – author of The Millionaire Next Door – that 1 in 8 American households has a net worth of $1M or more. If your nest egg totals $1.86M, you are in the top 5%. If you have a household net worth of $6.82M, you are in the top 1%.

How do you get rich if you aren’t currently? The basic formula is pretty simple:

-Maximize your income by upgrading your education or job skills

-Minimize your outgo by living beneath your means

-Religiously save the difference, and

-Follow proven investment principles

Most millionaires are not big spenders. According to Dr. Stanley, the vast majority of millionaires in the U.S……

-Live in a house that costs less than $400k

-Are more likely to wear a Timex than a Rolex

-Generally pay $15 or less for a bottle of wine

-Have never paid more than $400 for a suit

-Are more likely to drive a Nissan than a BMW

-Spend very little on prestige brands and luxury items.

Yes, they’re frugal, but they’re also happy, not to mention financially free. They are not dependent on their families, their employers, or the federal government. If you want to be rich, you have to stop acting rich and start living like a real millionaire.

Good investing

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J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
13y

There are two ways to increase your net worth:

1. Earn more

2. Spend less

But, keep in mind that you're limited in how much you affect #2, while the impact you can have on #1 is effectively infinite. In other words, the ability to increase your net worth by spending less is limited while the ability to increase your net worth by earning more is effectively unlimited.

For that reason, I consider #1 to be much, much more important to focus on when it comes to the net worth equation.

Just my $.02...

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  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    @Account Closed The Millionaire Next Door and Your Money or Your Life are 2 books that I really like.

    However, Dr Stanley started talking a little about the spending rich after his book made him a little coin.

    Read your bio and it sounds like you have it all going. Like the books say if you do things right then time is your friend.

    Driving my Toyota is cool but having my GTO is fun and wouldn't mind having a BMW either.

    How can you afford San Jose to invest? Isn't it too expensive for cash flow?

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y

    There are two ways to increase your net worth:

    1. Earn more

    2. Spend less

    But, keep in mind that you're limited in how much you affect #2, while the impact you can have on #1 is effectively infinite. In other words, the ability to increase your net worth by spending less is limited while the ability to increase your net worth by earning more is effectively unlimited.

    For that reason, I consider #1 to be much, much more important to focus on when it comes to the net worth equation.

    Just my $.02...

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 409 posts · 105 votes
    13y

    The Millionaire next door was written in 1996. There are no dates on his research numbers in that cut and pasted article. I suspect the quoted 'house that costs $400,000" and '$15 bottle of wine' are outdated

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Jeff S.:
    However, Dr Stanley started talking a little about the spending rich after his book made him a little coin.

    Read your bio and it sounds like you have it all going. Like the books say if you do things right then time is your friend.

    Driving my Toyota is cool but having my GTO is fun and wouldn't mind having a BMW either.

    How can you afford San Jose to invest? Isn't it too expensive for cash flow?

    @Jeff S.

    interesting take on Dr. Stanley. I did not know that. $1M was a lot of money in 1996, but not as much now. If you have a $1M net worth of real estate investment, you can retired comfortably with the passive income provided that you live a modest life.

    No doubt it's fun to drive a sport and powerful car. It's just a matter of time before I get my corvette. Still patiently waiting for my daughter to be older.

    With respect to investing in San Jose, it was never known for cashflow. The older investors in the Bay Area told me that you will have negative cashflow for 3-5 years before breaking even with the PITI. When I crunched the numbers in 2009, many properties covered the PITI with $500-$700 extra/month. Duplexes would have $1k extra/month after PITI. I figured this was it and went all in. We bought with our savings, our HELOC, credit cards (3% balance transfer fee for 12-18 months). On a deal earlier this year, I did an early withdraw from my IRA. We maxed out our borrowing limits. We brought in a partner to borrow more, etc. I know it sounded like we bet the farm on it, but we still have a couple hundred in our IRA just in case SHTF. We only borrow credit cards when the money is tied up in some properties for several months.

    Yeah, I did not know about the 2% rule etc, but luckily it has worked out. $500 to $1,000 extra per month can repair a lot of stuff in my opinion. Vacancy is extremely low in San Jose. The rental market is on fire. I just rented my 2/1 condo in San Jose for $1,950/month. Bought it for $210k earlier this year. Financed 75% at 4.125%. Similar condos in the complex are selling for $300-$325k depending on the condition. I figure these condos have a decent chance of going to $400k in the coming years. These were selling $400k in 2006, and they were selling for $145k -$160k in 2009-2012. I bought two in this complex last year for $150k and $155k and had to pay $210k for another one earlier this year. That's how fast our market is moving.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    There are two ways to increase your net worth:
    1. Earn more

    2. Spend less

    But, keep in mind that you're limited in how much you affect #2, while the impact you can have on #1 is effectively infinite. In other words, the ability to increase your net worth by spending less is limited while the ability to increase your net worth by earning more is effectively unlimited.

    For that reason, I consider #1 to be much, much more important to focus on when it comes to the net worth equation.

    Just my $.02...

    @J Scott

    Well said. My good friend and I are into making more money so you can spend more instead of making more and spending less. You can control both, but I agree that #1 is much more important.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by John Rooster:
    The Millionaire next door was written in 1996. There are no dates on his research numbers in that cut and pasted article. I suspect the quoted 'house that costs $400,000" and '$15 bottle of wine' are outdated

    @John Rooster

    Great catch. The article from the AOA was written this month, September 2013. I figure the info from the IRS and net worth, etc should be up to date. The above quoted numbers from The Millionaire Next Door might be outdated. I would revise it to $800k house and $30 bottle of wine. Do they sound about right now?

  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Excellent call on the market @Account Closed Interesting about riding out negative cash flow for a few years. Good to be pretty well heeled to do that IMO.

    There was a large (really large) property owner in Portland that used to preach trying to get PITI +$50. Of course at that time inflation was a given since property had not dropped in value since the depression (pre 1980 downturn).

    Remember Stanley saying that millionaires like to buy cars by the pound as Ford Crown Victorias were the top brand owned. Also heard Ford Explorers are also a top choice.

    IRA great choice for SHTF cash. That is where my reserves are kept too. Plus they are protected.

    Stay at home Dad? Doesn't get any better than that!

  • Real Estate Professional · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2012 · 319 posts · 167 votes
    13y

    @J Scott and @Account Closed

    There are two ways to increase your net worth:
    1. Earn more
    2. Spend less

    If you can manage to grow earnings more than you grow spending, then you are really doing great.

    If two guys make 100k and 120k, but live on 80k. The guy making 120k is getting rich TWICE as fast, because he's saving 40k vs. 20k. They both have pretty nice incomes and pretty good lifestyles.

    I make 200k and live like my neighbors who make 100k. We have a great life and my only financial stress is that I know I'm not capitalizing on opportunities that are out there.

    You have to pick your 'Jones's' - then out-earn them.

    Look for an older corvette, you'll be amazed what you can find for $15k. Lots of those 1970s stingrays out there, and high mileage 1990's.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    @David C.

    Congrats. You're in the top 5% of income earners. Have you seen the 2014 Stingray? Now, that's a beauty.

  • Real Estate Professional · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2012 · 319 posts · 167 votes
    13y

    Saw them at Corvettes at Carlisle. Very nice. But every vette there was nice, that's what got me pricing them. If I had garage space I'd have one of the 1970s stingrays.

  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Prefer the classics myself. At the Barrett-Jackson auction in Reno a 1963 Vette body off restoration sold for a whopping 175k!

    Technology makes the new cars way faster than the fastest classics ever were but the older cars are just plain fun.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    @David C. and @Jeff S. ,

    I'll let you in on a secret. I'm not a fan of classic cars because I don't know how to fix them. In fact, I'm trading in my 2003 Mercedes E500 next month for a ....... I don't know yet. As of now, it's likely a Prius or a Prius V. The vette will have to wait till 2017-2018 when my daughter can sit in the front seat. By then, I can afford to by a 2014 Stingray. Wife already approved it.

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    @Account Closed

    It seemed to me that the 2014 Vette is fairly reasonable priced starting at $51K.

    The numbers don't make you rich. there are poor people living in $800,000 houses and rich people living in $100,000 houses. In my area the median priced house is $159,900, average priced sold $181,000. Only 4% of the houses sold are $400, 000 or above. (figures from 9-7-2012 to 9-7-2013)

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 539 votes
    13y

    @Jeff S. , can you elaborate a bit on your statement about keeping your SHTF cash in an IRA? Are you at least 59 1/2, where you can withdraw with the 10% IRS early withdrawal penalty? If not, what's your reasoning for this strategy?

    I'm a much younger guy with more money than most in retirement accounts, but not nearly what I'd like to have in after-tax, liquid cash. I'm just wondering if you're under 59 1/2 and your strategy works for you, what I might be missing. Thanks in advance.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    For those that are interested there is some great data on "the rich" here:

    Wealth, Income, and Power

    It takes far more money to live a hammock lifestyle than most people think. In fact, the top .1% of the wealthy are FAR different than the next .9%. The bottom half of the 1% is MUCH different than the top half. This linked article is a good read too:

    An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

    Living below your means is both responsible and admirable, but I agree with JScott that growing one's income and learning to earn more while controlling risk is the mark of a good investor. Saving your way to wealth trades off your current standard of living for your future standard of living. Maintaining a non-crazy standard of living and growing your investing skills is the mark of a true investor to me. It is hard to argue you're "rich" if the only way you can get there is to starve your current lifestyle to make it.

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    If you can buy this Chevy without a second thought, you might be rich.

    Pricy Chevy

  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Yes @Mark S. I am 60 but never touched my retirement plan prior to retiring (mine is a 457) and think it is a great place to keep SHTF money. The whole point of operating your business in a responsible way is to not have SHTF.

    If SHTF a 10% penalty will be the least of your problems. That penalty is a great incentive to leave that money alone and operate using OPM.

    I realize many use their retirement funds entirely for investing in RE and that is great too. For me, that cushion feels better than another few properties that create more work and greater risk but that is just me.

    You should probably ask @Account Closed his philosophy about having an IRA as he is a young guy and could offer an opinion about facing a penalty if withdrawn.

    I'd also like to suggest that saving your way to wealth is very unlikely. Saving the difference between your income and expenses is not how wealthy people have gotten ahead. It is done through the tax favored wealth creation vehicle of capital gains. What % of your net worth actually came from saving your income? Of course the initial start may have come from a successful business or being a highly paid professional but all in all most wealth is created through investment IMO.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:

    If you can buy this Chevy without a second thought, you might be rich.

    Pricy Chevy

    Would you consider that rich or wealthy? Thanks for the YouTube clip. That as an eye opener. You couldn't get me to pay $10k for that Vette. This goes to show you how clueless I am about classic cars.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    @Mark S. ,

    Like Jeff, I'm 60 years old.

    Ok. I was just kidding. :)

    This is how I envision it. Say you get match 50 cents or $1.00 for each dollar you contribute to your 401k. You put in $10k and get $5k match. Say you're in the 30% tax bracket. Even with the 10% penalty, you still walk away with $95k instead at $70k. If you decide withdraw early, you could strategize to keep your taxable income low in the withdrawal year. Of course the IRA was resulted from one leaving a company or retire.

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 539 votes
    13y

    @Account Closed , I'm very familiar with retirement plans, however, you're still giving up essentially 1/3 (10% penalty, taxes, etc.) of the distribution with an early withdrawal. To me, that's just silly. As you basically said, if you're still "in service," meaning with your employer, you typically cannot roll those funds to an IRA if you're my age. Yes, there are exceptions (in-service distributions, etc., depending on the plan document), but generally speaking you cannot.

    One thing I am contemplating, though, is backing out CONTRIBUTIONS from my ROTH IRA in order to come up with some down payment money. I just don't have the cash I need to do this without that. I have plenty of other money in Traditional IRAs and 401(k) plan if **** hit the fan. In fact, as of right now with my current employer, I could take a 401(k) loan of 50% up to $50,000 for 3.25% interest. Not too shabby. The downside is that if I separate from service, that loan is due immediately and if it cannot be repaid immediately, it's a treated as a taxable event. So, again, a bit scary.

    The bottom line for me: I WOULD consider backing out ROTH IRA CONTRIBUTIONS without any taxes or penalties due, however, I probably WOULD NOT take an early distribution from a TRADITIONAL IRA or a loan on a current 401(k) plan.

    Thoughts?

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Minh L.:
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
    If you can buy this Chevy without a second thought, you might be rich.
    Pricy Chevy

    Would you consider that rich or wealthy? Thanks for the YouTube clip. That as an eye opener. You couldn't get me to pay $10k for that Vette. This goes to show you how clueless I am about classic cars.

    I don't know that I would define either so differently than you and others have done. Likely, I could not work another day and be comfortable, but it's possible the black swan might glide in and I'd be starving in a week. I like one ancient quote, "Godliness with contentment is great gain."

    The priciest Corvette might appreciate (it certainly has), and might be a blast to drive, but I'd stress about owning it. I'd much rather have that 3.2mm into a nice ranch with a house big enough for my family and friends.

  • Real Estate Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 49 posts · 3 votes
    13y

    Absolutely silly to take early withdrawal from retirement account! With penalty you are effectively borrowing money at 40-50% interest. I invest money in low turnover mutual funds this way most of the money grows tax deferred. If I hold investment for 1 yr I pay capital gains 15% instead of regular income tax which is much higher. When I find great RE deal I always put at least 25% or more down. Getting over leveraged is asking for sthf!

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    @Jon Klaus ,

    There was another poster defining the difference between rich & wealth so I was just yanking your chains. They don't make any difference to me. Same here, if I have that kind of money, I'd be owning more real estate. However, I bet it is also an investment to the Vette buyer. Just like others invest in arts and antiques.

    @Mark S. ,

    All the things you said above are correct. Looks like you did your homework already. I'm not against you backing out of the Roth IRA contributions. I bet you already know that you could withdraw the principal from your Roth IRA tax free after 5 years. You could see that @Bill W has already disagreed with my position, but it's different strokes for different folks. It's all about risk/reward. Some people can take the tax hit now and still make a higher return with real estate or other investment vehicles than with stocks and mutual funds. Some people contribute for diversification purpose.

    To me, it's a form of living less now so you have A CHANCE to be comfortable later. That's not how I want to live my life. I want to live a comfortable live now and a wealthy life later. That's why my philosophy is to make more so I can spend more. I don't like to make more so I can save more. There's no right or wrong answer in my opinion. It depends on each individual's situation and circumstance.

    Just my two pennies.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Mark S.:
    @Account Closed , I'm very familiar with retirement plans, however, you're still giving up essentially 1/3 (10% penalty, taxes, etc.) of the distribution with an early withdrawal. To me, that's just silly. As you basically said, if you're still "in service," meaning with your employer, you typically cannot roll those funds to an IRA if you're my age. Yes, there are exceptions (in-service distributions, etc., depending on the plan document), but generally speaking you cannot.
    One thing I am contemplating, though, is backing out CONTRIBUTIONS from my ROTH IRA in order to come up with some down payment money. I just don't have the cash I need to do this without that. I have plenty of other money in Traditional IRAs and 401(k) plan if **** hit the fan. In fact, as of right now with my current employer, I could take a 401(k) loan of 50% up to $50,000 for 3.25% interest. Not too shabby. The downside is that if I separate from service, that loan is due immediately and if it cannot be repaid immediately, it's a treated as a taxable event. So, again, a bit scary.

    The bottom line for me: I WOULD consider backing out ROTH IRA CONTRIBUTIONS without any taxes or penalties due, however, I probably WOULD NOT take an early distribution from a TRADITIONAL IRA or a loan on a current 401(k) plan.

    Thoughts?

    @Mark S ,

    You typically can arrange to continue making payments on the loan from your 401k; however, that is something you should confirm in doing your due diligence.

    -Steven

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    @Steven Hamilton II ,

    I did not know that you could arrange to continue to make payments on your 401k after termination of your employment. Like @Mark S. , I thought the loan would be due immediately. Good to know although it's no longer applicable to my situation.

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