Do you have to accept applications from Section 8 Individuals?
Investor · Lakewood Ranch F · Member since 2013 · 79 posts · 11 votes
Do you have to accept applications from Section 8 Individuals?
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Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes
12y
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
You can't reject someone because they are on section 8.
But you can refuse to accept a section 8 voucher as payment for rent.
As a landlord you do not have to rent to section 8 renters. You have to apply and have your unit pass an inspection to gain the "privilege" of renting to a section 8 participant.
If they meet all of your criteria without the voucher, then rent to them. But, you are not required to suck at the government tit, at least not yet. Another 5 or 10 years, it might be a whole different ballgame.
50 Replies
- Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes12y
Find out from the S8 inspector if it would pass inspection as-is. If it doesn't then I don't think you are liable for spending more money just to rent to them. (you could sabotage the inspection by removing the window screens for example but the apartment would still be to city code)
Chances are you will be able to reject their application anyway after a background/credit checks and checking past rental references.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Frank Fiore Jr:
When I have an apartment for rent; do I have to accept applications from individuals that are utilizing or qualified for Section 8.
Can I just state I am not renting to Section 8, or that I am not Section 8 qualified?
Or do I have to accept their application and run the full background as I do for others?
I don't want the hassle of going through the process of having the place inspected and approved etc... but it seems like I have no choice in this matter?
"In Massachusetts, it is against the law to refuse to rent to someone just because the person has a Section 8 voucher. See M.G.L. c.151B, §4(10). "
No. But, don't take my word or anyone's word for it unless you are paying them for that opinion.
Just call the local housing office. They will confirm the answer is, "No."
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes12y
If you have a tax credit project you must accept Sec 8, I'm sure you don't, if you did, you'd know it. Sec 8 won't pay to landlords who don't "sign-up" and meet the HUD requirements, and that is not required to do so. When they are speaking of a federally assisted project that's not Sec 8, those would be housing or retirement or nursing assisted projects, not privately owned property. :)
- Peoria, IL · Member since 2011 · 365 posts · 182 votes12y
You can just reject a section 8 tenant for a different reason, such as not meeting income requirements . Odds are if they are on sec 8 they don't have three times rent in monthly income.
That would be treating all tenants the same.
But in my area, we are not required to accept section 8 vouchers.
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
You can't reject someone because they are on section 8.
However as others have pointed out the fact that they are on section 8 could easily mean they will fail to meet some other basic criteria that you have like an income requirement or credit score. Also if you require a security deposit section 8 doesn't pay that so they will need to come up with that on their own. BTW on that note you can't require last months rent from a section 8 person or deny them for that. The idea is that the gubment is guaranteeing the rent so that is good enough.
Also as others have pointed out if your unit fails to meet the requirements then you can't have a section 8 tenant even if you wanted. Do you have a Lead Cert? If not then you will fail.
- Vendor · Washington, DC · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 4 votes12yAs previously stated you don't have to accept them because they don't meet a requirement. You could also say your unit does not meet the "HQS" housing quality standards section 8 mandates all it's units to have. Then state you are not willing to make the adjustments the program is requiring because they are unreasonable. You should have no problem from anyone saying this.
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes12y
You do not have to participate in the Section 8 program as it is an "opt-in" program for an investor unless as stated earlier your property is a tax credit project or another government subsidy program which is usually larger multi-family complexes
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
You need to write down your criteria and apply that criteria to all, fairly. Some locations have "testers" that seek to find landlords who are violating the law. What you say on the phone when someone asks can be illegal discrimination. Tread very carefully.
Be very careful what advise you take, especially from people who do not know your state laws. Texas LL/Tenant law is night and day different than MA LL/Tenant law.
- Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes12y
You don't have to accept section 8 in my city.
Thankfully.
Section 8 requires signing up, inspections, etc. You're not required to participate in section 8 at all-- unless, like someone else said, you get a tax credit or are otherwise registered in the section 8 program.
Have written criteria of what you accept as tenants.
In fact, I wouldn't even say "I don't accept section 8" just in case someone is trying to test you. I would just state my 3 x rent income requirement, etc. if tenants ask me about requirements.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes12y
Bill S. made a very good point, follow it, there are "testers" some are very good, for example, they may say to a Realtor "I'm wheel chair bound, can you pick me up, I'd like to see this house" guess what, Realtor may need to go get an accessible van under ADA. That's for Realtors, check on your own compliance. Anyway, get a set phraseology in speaking to tenants and say the same thing to all of the applicants.
As to Sec. 8, sure see some wild ideas;
All you have to say is "No, I'm sorry, we don't take Sec 8 vouchers, we are not a qualified property." Done!
Next, you don't need sneaky ways, just say no.
If you qualify anyone for income, you must include all qualifying income without regard to any the source as to the dollar amount received. Check you state, some will also depend on the probability of continued income. Means if the get food stamps and have (for two years under your written policy) it may be income. You may not discriminate as to the legal source of funds or any assistance received, including Sec 8 vouchers, so if you count income, they may qualify, obviously if Sec 8 is paying the lions share of the rents.
But you can say no in the beginning.
You can and probably get the basic qualifications out of the way on the phone to save yourself and the caller time. However, you might say 3X rents, that you verify employment and income and past rents. You might say you pull credit.
But don't go into what qualification requirements are, you ask the question they give you the info and you figure it out.
To avoid giving details, I say all things are considered and weighted according to requirements.....almost like you feed the data in and the man behind the curtain figures it out.
When you start giving out what you look for or what ratios must be, then if they are trying to cheat, give fake info, now they have the standards you need. All they need to know is pass/fail and if failed, why.
- Real estate investor · Las Vegas · Member since 2013 · 798 posts · 171 votes12y
The easy answer would be that there is surely an easy way to reject based on your criteria. Most people that accept Sect 8 (voucher program in VA) advertise that, as they have their own site and there are requirements to place them (the house needs to have an approved application, inspections are done, etc.). I would say you likely have no issue not accepting Sect 8, but the BEST answer would be to get familiar w/ your local and state laws.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
You can't reject someone because they are on section 8.
But you can refuse to accept a section 8 voucher as payment for rent.
As a landlord you do not have to rent to section 8 renters. You have to apply and have your unit pass an inspection to gain the "privilege" of renting to a section 8 participant.
If they meet all of your criteria without the voucher, then rent to them. But, you are not required to suck at the government tit, at least not yet. Another 5 or 10 years, it might be a whole different ballgame.
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
Originally posted by @Duncan Taylor:
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
You can't reject someone because they are on section 8.
But you can refuse to accept a section 8 voucher as payment for rent.
As a landlord you do not have to rent to section 8 renters. You have to apply and have your unit pass an inspection to gain the "privilege" of renting to a section 8 participant.
If they meet all of your criteria without the voucher, then rent to them. But, you are not required to suck at the government tit, at least not yet. Another 5 or 10 years, it might be a whole different ballgame.
Maybe this is just at the state level but I have been told many times that you can't reject someone because they are on section 8. They were considering that as discriminatory as rejecting someone because of ethnicity or because they had kids. That is also where I got the thing about not being able to require (And reject because of lack of) last months rent since the government "is good for it".
Now you can reject them for other reasons, just not BECAUSE they have section 8.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
Originally posted by @Duncan Taylor:
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
You can't reject someone because they are on section 8.
But you can refuse to accept a section 8 voucher as payment for rent.
As a landlord you do not have to rent to section 8 renters. You have to apply and have your unit pass an inspection to gain the "privilege" of renting to a section 8 participant.
If they meet all of your criteria without the voucher, then rent to them. But, you are not required to suck at the government tit, at least not yet. Another 5 or 10 years, it might be a whole different ballgame.
Maybe this is just at the state level but I have been told many times that you can't reject someone because they are on section 8. They were considering that as discriminatory as rejecting someone because of ethnicity or because they had kids. That is also where I got the thing about not being able to require (And reject because of lack of) last months rent since the government "is good for it".
Now you can reject them for other reasons, just not BECAUSE they have section 8.
I am not an attorney. I will not stand with you in front of an activist judge who may want to try to make an example of you. You should seek competent licensed counsel backed by a paid up malpractice policy. The law is often misread by laypeople, for example, the anti-discrimination rules for section 8 recipients were not written to force landlords to accept Section 8. There is not one single case anyone can cite where a landlord who had not VOLUNTARILY chosen to participate in the program was forced to rent to anyone holding a section 8 voucher. Show me the case proving you must accept section 8 tenants. Section 8 is VOLUNTARY on both sides of the landlord-tenant relationship.
I have never owned a property that participated in any section 8 program. i have never rented to a section 8 recipient. I have never processed an application from someone using a Section 8 voucher. Their voucher has no value to me, I am unable to convert it to Federal Reserve notes or their equivalent. For the record, I don't accept Confederate currency either for the EXACT SAME REASON.
For their voucher to have value you have to agree to participate in the program, you have to set a rent the section 8 administrator deems fair for the area and the family, your property has to pass an annual physical inspection. Without ALL of that the voucher has a value of EXACTLY ZERO dollars for them to rent from you.
If they pass all of the criteria, INCLUDING INCOME, when you consider the amount you would receive from the housing authority is zero, by all means treat them like you would everyone else.
You are not rejecting them because they on Section 8, you are rejecting them because they don't meet the income requirements.
- Residential Real Estate Agent · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 380 votes12y
I've found two things to be true about Section 8 tenants:
1) The rent always comes in on time.
2) The tenants rarely want to leave.
Why would you not want to rent to tenants like these???
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Jake Kucheck:
I've found two things to be true about Section 8 tenants:
1) The rent always comes in on time.
2) The tenants rarely want to leave.
Why would you not want to rent to tenants like these???
Great question!
- I am not a moocher.
- My rents were higher.
- My costs were lower.
- Ergo, my profit margins were higher by not renting to them.
- Did I mention I prefer not to mooch off my fellow citizens?
- Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes12y
I thought that Section 8 is a "voluntary" program?
Are you forced to accept it in Massachusetts? If so, I think it would be easy to get out of. They require a lot of paperwork, copy of your deed, tax bills, etc. It would be easy to take your sweet time turning that stuff in while you rent to someone else.
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
While it is voluntary, it is my understanding that it is illegal to discriminate against people holding a section 8 voucher in MA. So if you tell them you won't rent to them because they are Section 8 you are illegally discriminating (think fines-big time). If you tell them you won't rent to them because they put on their application their income including their section 8 voucher is only 2x rent and your written requirements are 3x then you are legally discriminating. Subtle difference but a difference none the less.
Famous lawyer once said you can't write a law I can't get around. He could say that because he knew the law.
Every area is different. What is legal in GA may not be legal in MA. Bottom line, know your local laws.
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
Originally posted by @Jake Kucheck:
I've found two things to be true about Section 8 tenants:
1) The rent always comes in on time.
2) The tenants rarely want to leave.
Why would you not want to rent to tenants like these???
People don't rent to section 8 because Section 8 tenants have no skin in the game. They have a reputation of being entitled and destructive to property. I realize not all fall into this category and there are landlords that make great living serving this demographic. I would say that unless you put lots to time into learning about section 8 and have a business model built for section 8 you are better off in most cases avoiding section 8.
Newbies see your post and think easy money. That is far from the case. If you do it without proper preparation you will likely get hurt financially.
- 12yMike HurneyPro MemberReal Estate Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 542 votes
@Jon K. What is your City? Or even State?
- 12yMike HurneyPro MemberReal Estate Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 542 votes
@Frank Fiore Jr I've never had the opportunity to rent to Section 8. When someone asks, I tell them I haven't qualified yet. Then I call the Section 8 office and ask for them to qualify the unit. (I'm still waiting ....)
Many Landlords in our Association think it's great and would not rent to anyone else.
However years ago there was a Massachusetts program called Section 707. Governor Weld ended it overnight in a Budget debate and many Landlords were stuck with Tenants that could not pay, even if they were inclined to.
- Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes12y
I agree with @Bill S., even though we have had only one Section 8 tenant. She scammed us when she moved in, as she knew far more about the rules about S8 and landlording than we did. Lesson learned. She was the most entitled tenant I have come across in the past 6 years. She had no fear of losing her voucher and wouldn't hesitate to call her caseworker or the city if she wanted something that I wasn't required to give her. She moved extra people into the property, got a pit bull, etc. Her only redeeming quality, other than the steady rent check, was that she was an excellent housekeeper. The place was spotless.
Two other tenants we rented to were on temporary rental assistance. And when that ends, which is exactly what happens with "temporary", it's with very little notice and it's the landlord's burden to evict when the tenants refuse to leave.
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
Originally posted by @Bill S.:
While it is voluntary, it is my understanding that it is illegal to discriminate against people holding a section 8 voucher in MA. So if you tell them you won't rent to them because they are Section 8 you are illegally discriminating (think fines-big time). If you tell them you won't rent to them because they put on their application their income including their section 8 voucher is only 2x rent and your written requirements are 3x then you are legally discriminating. Subtle difference but a difference none the less.
Famous lawyer once said you can't write a law I can't get around. He could say that because he knew the law.
Every area is different. What is legal in GA may not be legal in MA. Bottom line, know your local laws.
The subtle difference is what I am getting at. You can find a whole host of reasons generally to justify rejecting a person that has section 8, you just can't have THAT as the reason. At least not around here, per my understanding from several different sources.
It is pretty common for people that are on section 8 to have bad credit, have no job, have (often weird) pets, are smokers and no ability to get a security deposit. Any of these (and many other things) are totally legit reasons to reject them as long as you reject anyone that falls into the particular category.
Also the simplest thing is if your unit isn't already qualified you can say that it isn't and can't rent to them until it is. As Mike pointed out they don't really have a fire under their asses to get out there so if you get other applicants rent to them while the inspectors are sitting on their butts.
- Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes12y
Check with your city/county. Chicago just passed a law that it is illegal to discriminate against anybody with Section 8 - Just like fair housing laws
Second City Real Estate4.821 Reviews - Investor · Lakewood Ranch F · Member since 2013 · 79 posts · 11 votes12y
(Thanks for all the input) This is really just a reply to myself for future reference.
So the bottom line / question here is....
In the state of Massachusetts is Section 8 a voluntary program for landlords or not!
Secondary questions depending on the answer to above question
1. Can I legally state in the advertisement I do not accept Section 8 vouchers? 2. Can I legally state my apartment is not Section 8 approved?
3. Do I have to make an attempt to have the unit approved, if an inquiry is received? If this is the case than the program is not voluntary.....
I understand all the comments regarding 3x rent etc.... and I have all that outlined.
My goal here is, eliminate the application, phone screen, showing on the front end Can I just say "I do not participate in the Section 8 program". This is what I am trying to determine is legal.
There is a difference between discrimination against individuals with Section 8 and not participating in the program.... At least I hope so....
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