Do you have to accept applications from Section 8 Individuals?
Investor · Lakewood Ranch F · Member since 2013 · 79 posts · 11 votes
Do you have to accept applications from Section 8 Individuals?
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Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes
12y
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
You can't reject someone because they are on section 8.
But you can refuse to accept a section 8 voucher as payment for rent.
As a landlord you do not have to rent to section 8 renters. You have to apply and have your unit pass an inspection to gain the "privilege" of renting to a section 8 participant.
If they meet all of your criteria without the voucher, then rent to them. But, you are not required to suck at the government tit, at least not yet. Another 5 or 10 years, it might be a whole different ballgame.
50 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
@Frank Fiore Jr as I understand it.
1) No. In MA it is illegal to discriminate against Section 8.
2) Yes, but I would not. Why be a target or a test case?
3) No, but why not "try" when you get an inquiry. Again, why be a target or a test case.
The best way to deal with Section 8 if you don't want to rent to them is to spend the few minutes on the phone with them and let them answer a couple of LEGAL discriminating questions and be done with them. It's the game you have to play to own property where you do.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
There are a lot of people who do not understand what "you can't discriminate against a section 8 recipient" actually means.
I challenge anyone to cite any case law showing where a landlord was a 'test case' or otherwise and was forced into accepting a section 8 tenant or financially or criminally penalized for refusing to do so, when they had not VOLUNTARILY agreed to participate in the section 8 program.
Bottom line, if you and your unit are not approved, that voucher is worthless to you because it cannot be converted to actual legal currency. Therefore, the amount of their voucher is not income that can be considered when evaluating them.
So me the case law indicating otherwise.
- Investor · Plymouth, MA · Member since 2013 · 64 posts · 9 votes12y
I think a lot of the confusion between users understanding of Section 8 laws comes from each state having differing views on how Section 8 should be handled.
In Massachusetts, it is my understanding that you cannot "choose to not accept Section 8", you must qualify/disqualify the tenant just as any other tenant. I can't cite any legal cases where landlords were found liable, but this isn't what the discussion is actually about anyway. Though I am learning a lot about the certification process here. Good info from Shaun Reilly about the lead certs.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Christopher Reynolds:
I think a lot of the confusion between users understanding of Section 8 laws comes from each state having differing views on how Section 8 should be handled.
In Massachusetts, it is my understanding that you cannot "choose to not accept Section 8", you must qualify/disqualify the tenant just as any other tenant. I can't cite any legal cases where landlords were found liable, but this isn't what the discussion is actually about anyway. Though I am learning a lot about the certification process here. Good info from Shaun Reilly about the lead certs.
If there is no case law forcing a landlord, who has not signed up to participate in the section 8 program, to accept a voucher as valid income for consideration during the application process then there is nothing, absolutely nothing, forcing a landlord to approve section 8 applicants.
If you want to participate in the section 8 program, go for it. But, you are not required to do so and you are not required to pretend the voucher counts as income if you are unable to collect on that voucher.
Now, if there were absolutely no requirements on the landlord to submit an application to be approved for section 8 and to get their rent rates approved by section 8 and to get the unit inspected and approved by section 8, then you might have a point.
Originally posted by @Frank Fiore Jr:
2. Can I legally state my apartment is not Section 8 approved?
I don't think that this would be a good idea. Technically, no apartment is "Section 8 approved" until you fill out the moving packet and Section 8 does their inspection. The inspection comes after you approve a tenant, not the other way around.
Also, your apartment would have to be a real (bleep)hole not to be Section 8 approved. Their standards are pretty low.
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
Originally posted by @Duncan Taylor:
Originally posted by @Christopher Reynolds:
I think a lot of the confusion between users understanding of Section 8 laws comes from each state having differing views on how Section 8 should be handled.
In Massachusetts, it is my understanding that you cannot "choose to not accept Section 8", you must qualify/disqualify the tenant just as any other tenant. I can't cite any legal cases where landlords were found liable, but this isn't what the discussion is actually about anyway. Though I am learning a lot about the certification process here. Good info from Shaun Reilly about the lead certs.If there is no case law forcing a landlord, who has not signed up to participate in the section 8 program, to accept a voucher as valid income for consideration during the application process then there is nothing, absolutely nothing, forcing a landlord to approve section 8 applicants.
If you want to participate in the section 8 program, go for it. But, you are not required to do so and you are not required to pretend the voucher counts as income if you are unable to collect on that voucher.
Now, if there were absolutely no requirements on the landlord to submit an application to be approved for section 8 and to get their rent rates approved by section 8 and to get the unit inspected and approved by section 8, then you might have a point.
I'm not a lawyer so I don't know case law off the top of my head, nor do I have any desire to find it. There may or may not be case law that a landlord that denied a section 8 applicant, based solely on being on the program, was fined or what not. I will guess there is no case law that they were NOT if a suit was brought since everyone chiming in from MA seems to agree that you can't do it.
From @Frank Fiore Jr 's original post:
"In Massachusetts, it is against the law to refuse to rent to someone just because the person has a Section 8 voucher. See . "
Looks pretty clear cut.
Now you are right that you aren't obligated to do any of the things needed to make it qualify and you aren't obligated to sit on it for weeks waiting to get inspections done and all that. You also don't have to take crappy applicants that fail to meet other criteria.
In GA you might very well be correct in everything that you said. MA is possibly the most tenant friendly state in the country so many things that are a given in most places are strictly prohibited here.
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
Originally posted by @Rob K.:
Originally posted by @Frank Fiore Jr:
2. Can I legally state my apartment is not Section 8 approved?I don't think that this would be a good idea. Technically, no apartment is "Section 8 approved" until you fill out the moving packet and Section 8 does their inspection. The inspection comes after you approve a tenant, not the other way around.
Also, your apartment would have to be a real (bleep)hole not to be Section 8 approved. Their standards are pretty low.
I think that the level of inspection that they do and how hardcore they are varies a lot from different areas. I actually have a couple section 8 tenants in the city that his units are and both places initially failed.
Now the work needed amounted to less than $150 total for both places (With some of the stuff being things I would have wanted done anyway) and I wanted the tenants so I did it, but I don't think I had to if I didn't want to.
You want to fail the inspection? Cut a big hole in a screen and have the place perfect otherwise.
"Sorry we failed the inspection and I can't afford to do the work that they require."
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
Originally posted by @Rob K.:
Originally posted by @Frank Fiore Jr:
2. Can I legally state my apartment is not Section 8 approved?I don't think that this would be a good idea. Technically, no apartment is "Section 8 approved" until you fill out the moving packet and Section 8 does their inspection. The inspection comes after you approve a tenant, not the other way around.
Also, your apartment would have to be a real (bleep)hole not to be Section 8 approved. Their standards are pretty low.
I think that the level of inspection that they do and how hardcore they are varies a lot from different areas. I actually have a couple section 8 tenants in the city that his units are and both places initially failed.
Now the work needed amounted to less than $150 total for both places (With some of the stuff being things I would have wanted done anyway) and I wanted the tenants so I did it, but I don't think I had to if I didn't want to.
You want to fail the inspection? Cut a big hole in a screen and have the place perfect otherwise.
"Sorry we failed the inspection and I can't afford to do the work that they require."
I also meant to say that if you do though that rigmarole I'd think you could legitimately tell any future applicant that your unit has previously failed a section 8 inspection and leave it at that.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Actually, I stand, er rather sit, corrected.
Three states require landlords to accept section 8 applicants assuming they meet all of your criteria and you must include the value of the voucher in your analysis.
Those states are MA, CT and MD.
NJ requires you to accept it is an existing tenant becomes available.
- Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes12y
Yea @Duncan Taylor I was going to ask you for clarification. As of Aug 1 it is illegal in Chicago and I have heard of a tenant calling and asks "do you accept Section 8?" and they say "no" they are being charged with discrimination
Second City Real Estate4.821 Reviews - Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
My Comments:
1) Not all property meets HQS requirements. An efficieny condo in Myrtle Beach, for instance, would not qualify. It does not have a stove. It is not S-8 eligible. It will never pass inspection, and therefore saying "no Section 8" is not discriminatory in the least. About 7% of housing in Wake county also meets these kind of criteria, some of these I manage. They are not S-8 eligible.
2) Not all landlords are eligible. Landlords with certain criminal records, past issues with federal programs, or have prior violations are not eligible. These states can't mandate these bad actors accept S-8 applicants per federal (HUD) contract.
3) Assuming you are already "in" the program, the contract can't make you continue to accept a voucher. In the HAP contract, Paragraph 8. Termination of Tenancy by Owner, section d(3)(c) clarifies that the owner may terminate tenancy for good cause, and "good cause may include... A business or economic reason for termination of the tenancy (such as sale of the property, renovation of the unit, the owner’s desire to rent the unit for a higher rent)." Further, the section also says "The examples of other good cause in this paragraph do not preempt any State or local laws to the contrary." http://www.hmgapt.com/docs/HAPcontract.pdf I have not seen laws to the contrary, but don't know laws in all 50 states.
4) Calling it what it is. Personally, if an applicant met all your requirements (e.g. income criteria, past housing screening (no evictions), credit screening, no criminal history) then you shouldn't discriminate if they have public assistance. Veterans also fit this bill (disabled or not) and I see that MA doesn't allow discrimination against Vets either. Kudos. Every state should have that as public policy, IMO. If an applicant meets all your requirements, you should rent to them (again IMO) regardless of who (self pay, SSI, S-8, parent, other private or gov't agency, ...) pays the bill.
5) Establish written policy that protects your interest. My company "takes a binder" to hold a property. The binder requires the applicant to pay one full month's rent, and that binder will take the property "off the market". The binder holder then has 10 days to sign the lease (and that includes paying a full deposit) or the binder holder will forfeit the payment (the binder consideration) to hold the property. This policy is geared towards conducting our business and if the local HA (or other agency) can't conduct an inspection quickly, then the S-8 voucher holder will need to have funds to follow our process. In the context of this post, our policies are not meant to discriminate against anyone. It's the way we conduct business.
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
Originally posted by @Duncan Taylor:
Actually, I stand, er rather sit, corrected.
Three states require landlords to accept section 8 applicants assuming they meet all of your criteria and you must include the value of the voucher in your analysis.
Those states are MA, CT and MD.
NJ requires you to accept it is an existing tenant becomes available.
Doh! Yeah some stuff is just ridiculous.
Don't know about MD but CT seems to follow pretty close to what I see in MA from what I have heard. Lots of silly things that most people would never even think would be issues. You can always make it work in your area, but these places don't do anything to attract people to investments with the hard core rules and restrictions.
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes12y
So in the states listed an owner must accept Section 8 ? I am forced to let the Government(Housing Inspector) enter my property and require me to fix anything that he requires after I may have to wait 6 weeks or so with my property vacant for them to show ? I must risk the my rent will not show up if my tenant fails to show up for any re-certification even though I am not involved or contacted( Yes it happens) and if the Government is shut down I may not get paid at all ?
Does everyone else have a huge problem with this like I do ?
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
So in the states listed an owner must accept Section 8 ? I am forced to let the Government(Housing Inspector) enter my property and require me to fix anything that he requires after I may have to wait 6 weeks or so with my property vacant for them to show ? I must risk the my rent will not show up if my tenant fails to show up for any re-certification even though I am not involved or contacted( Yes it happens) and if the Government is shut down I may not get paid at all ?
Does everyone else have a huge problem with this like I do ?
I don't read it that way but, if I were actively investing in those states, I'd seek an opinion from an attorney.
The way I read it and they way it was explained to me by an attorney is as follows...
If someone approved for a section 8 voucher wants to apply to rent from you, you must accept the application and process it the exact same way you would any other application. You must include the amount of the voucher as part of their income if you use an income test.
If they meet all of your criteria for your rental, then you are obligated to seek an inspection of the unit from the housing authority. If the unit passes the inspection and your rent amount is acceptable to the housing authority, you then complete your normal process of signing a lease or rental agreement, collecting the damage deposits, etc. If the unit does not pass inspection, you are not required to make the changes necessary to meet the section 8 requirements. If your advertised rent is higher than the housing authorities guidelines, you are not required to lower it.
It is a sad and pathetic situation we find ourselves in this country today where the leeches are more valued than the producers.
- Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes12y
Originally posted by @Duncan Taylor:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
So in the states listed an owner must accept Section 8 ? I am forced to let the Government(Housing Inspector) enter my property and require me to fix anything that he requires after I may have to wait 6 weeks or so with my property vacant for them to show ? I must risk the my rent will not show up if my tenant fails to show up for any re-certification even though I am not involved or contacted( Yes it happens) and if the Government is shut down I may not get paid at all ?
Does everyone else have a huge problem with this like I do ?I don't read it that way but, if I were actively investing in those states, I'd seek an opinion from an attorney.
The way I read it and they way it was explained to me by an attorney is as follows...
If someone approved for a section 8 voucher wants to apply to rent from you, you must accept the application and process it the exact same way you would any other application. You must include the amount of the voucher as part of their income if you use an income test.
If they meet all of your criteria for your rental, then you are obligated to seek an inspection of the unit from the housing authority. If the unit passes the inspection and your rent amount is acceptable to the housing authority, you then complete your normal process of signing a lease or rental agreement, collecting the damage deposits, etc. If the unit does not pass inspection, you are not required to make the changes necessary to meet the section 8 requirements. If your advertised rent is higher than the housing authorities guidelines, you are not required to lower it.
It is a sad and pathetic situation we find ourselves in this country today where the leeches are more valued than the producers.
Not an attorney and no legal advice, but I have always interpreted things pretty much how Duncan said it.
Basically in those states you just add people with housing assistance to the list of protected classes. You can ALWAYS reject someone in a protected class if they do not qualify you just can't reject them BECAUSE they are in the protected class.
I also do not think in the case of section 8 if you have 2 qualified candidates and one you have to wait for an inspection and the other you don't that you have to lose money waiting. For example you got 2 applications last week one is a run of the mill working couple that has all the deposits and check out and want it for Jan 1st. The other is a fully qualified Section 8 applicant that will be ready to move in as soon as they get the inspection. NO CHANCE you will get an inspection before the other people would move in.
In that case you would in the best case lose 1-2 weeks of rent if they get the inspection pretty snappy and the unit passes. If it doesn't then you have to spend whatever money is needed to fix it and most likely lose another 1-2 weeks of rent, or you don't fix it and best case is the other people are still willing to take it but more likely they are gone and you need to find a new person, which could be easy or take months.
- Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes12y
@Shaun Reilly Kudos to you for knowing your state's tenant laws, and being able to look them up. Kudos to @Duncan Taylor for researching the law and admitting when he was wrong and clarifying it for the rest of the folks reading. The quality of some of the folks who post here is amazing. While I do not agree with most of the rules the government makes we have to live with them as people who are engaged in business. Both of you have earned my respect in how you handled your differences.
- Investor · Lakewood Ranch F · Member since 2013 · 79 posts · 11 votes12y
OK, how or who fixed the typo in the title of thread? It was "accpet" and obviously it was a typo but it has been corrected?
Thanks again for all the input, obviously i was not the only one with questions around this subject. @Bill S. and @Shaun Reilly and @Duncan Taylor
Shaun see you at the next local meeting! Spoke with you for a short time @ the unofficial BP meeting in Woburn Ma.
Shout Out to anyone in Lake Worth FLA, nice area, I was down there for the Pat's vs. Miami game! Looks like the market came back and is coming back strong in that area.... from the little investigating I did....
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes12y
I haven't kept up, just noticed, the heading asks if you have to accept an application, I think it was originally asked if the OP had to lease to someone on Sec 8. Yes, take the application, you can't count Sec 8 unless your property is qualified and there is no requirement for you to qualify it. I bet you folks all already got there.
I see the tail end of something up there, really you rent to the first qualified applicant, regardless of qualified sources of income (illegal income is not qualifying income, part time may not qualify, etc) but if you're not in the program, you don't count Sec 8 since you can't receive it. Just to clear up my original post, that you don't have to lease on Sec 8. :)
- Investor · Milford, CT · Member since 2012 · 592 posts · 285 votes12y
Here in CT there have been many cases, just do a google search on Landlords paying serious $$$ fines if they indicated no to section 8. So far its been easy to disqualify them according to 3x income, credit, background and criminal. To be honest if they did meet those qualifications I would rent to them. Typically when they ask over the phone I say that I don't have a problem with Section 8 and inform them of my qualifications as well as no smokers and no pets. So far I have not had any takers to view the property and fill out an application.
@Duncan Taylor stated that Maryland prohibits Section 8 discrimination. A law attempting was defeated in the 2013 legislative session, by one vote, in the Senate. Please see the following article:
http://wamu.org/news/13/03/27/maryland_housing_debate_centers_on_section_8
It will probably come up again this year, and hopefully also be defeated, provided enough people voice their opinions to their Delegates and Senators.
You can lose more than a month's rent waiting for Inspector's to pass your property. There was a news story recently about $20,000 in damages done to a property that had a Baltimore City Inspector as the tenant that left. http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/i-team/landlord-section-8-housing-inspector-trashed-my-home/-/10640252/23350220/-/h1c5wm/-/index.html
I can manage the tenants; it is the agency I don't want to be required to have a contract with.
- Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes12y
Someone posted this review (search Source of income Section 8 and you'll find it) back in 2012 on court cases for "source of income" discrimination:
http://nhlp.org/files/03%20NHLP_Bull_NovDec08_source%20of%20income%20defense.pdf
And in Maryland, unfortunately, I am finding out that while the state as a whole has avoided it, the City of Annapolis and several others within Maryland passed their version of it. If there is no other legitimate reason to deny an applicant, you must submit to the process (which, according to the cases in the link, means even submitting to their lease requirements even if you object to some of the terms ... infuriating on every level I can think of). And apparently there is a yearly license and inspection process for any residential rental unit in Annapolis, Section 8 or not, so either way to rent it out, you have to pass a city inspection.
We were considering renting our Annapolis condo out and buying another, building rentals here in Annapolis instead of focusing on Raleigh, but after my research this weekend, I will certainly not be purchasing another rental in Annapolis, and we'll plan on selling this one when we're done with it.
- Boston, MA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes9y
These responses are very interesting!! Some are giving legitimate answers, while others are down right discriminative. I will have to bring this to the attention of my other fellow realtors, Landlords and housing lawyers.
- Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes7y
Check your state or local county statutes on "source of Income" discrimination.
- Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 930 votes7y
You can't reject because they are Section 8. That's considered discrimination in housing. Find another reason to reject them, or simply select another qualified tenant. One way people get out of renting to Section 8 is making the rent higher than what Section 8 plus tenant contribution would pay.
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