would you start eviction over $50? $160?
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Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12ySince a number of people have posted the idea that it's not worth the $30 or $50 to go through an eviction. I say it's not about the money it's about who is in control. It was said to me early on "The landlord's in charge the tenant is not."
I say it's absolutely worth the cost of an eviction to maintain control over my property and investment.
There are plenty of tenants out there that will follow the rules. The cost of the eviction is my education in tenant screening. That cost reminds me during my next vacancy that "a vacancy is a blessing compared to a bad tenant". If I do let someone in who won't follow the rules that's on me and I should in now way compound that error by letting the terms of the lease slide. The longer I do so, the greater the peril.
As @Gerald K. said allowing things to slide can be construed as rewriting the lease. The lease governs and all things not in compliance get brought into line or the tenant moves on one way or another. What's the point of a lease if you let the tenant do whatever they want more or less? Where do you draw the line?
46 Replies
- 12yRoy N.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Originally posted by @Thomas Williamson:
I'm going through a situation now where a tenant signed a one year lease that began Nov. 1st. She called last week and said, "Oh I'm sorry, I have to move out because I'm pregnant and the apartment won't be big enough for me two kids and a baby." I said no problem, just pay the balance of the remaining lease, the rent you currently owe, and you won't be getting your security deposit back. She moved out and told me I was crazy if I thought she was going to pay all that.
We now have court in two weeks.
Once she saw I was serious, she told me I could keep the security deposit, she paid all of January's rent, even though she moved out this past weekend, she's now trying to negotiate the remainder of the lease. I refuse to let people steal from me. The moral is, kick them out and get better tenants and enforce the rules upfront each and every time. Good luck.Thomas,
It has been our experience, in all jurisdictions with which we are familiar, when a residential tenant breaks the lease, they continue to be responsible for their obligations under that lease until a) you relet the property or b) the original termination date of the lease is reached. In many instances, the law also requires the landlord to make commercial best efforts to relet the property.
Legal aspects aside, it is simple good business sense to work with your tenant to find the best path out of the situation for all involved. Digging in your heals and being pedantic about the lease is not going to make her stay; it is only going to add stress to both your lives. When this happens to us, we explain to the tenant their obligations and enlist their cooperation to try and get the apartment cleaned, repaired, shown, and re-rented as soon as possible. We have found this will motivate even formerly sloppy tenants to make the property shine and precludes any "stick-it-to-the-a$$hole" damage on the way out.
... what's that old adage about flies, vinegar, and honey?
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
Since a number of people have posted the idea that it's not worth the $30 or $50 to go through an eviction. I say it's not about the money it's about who is in control. It was said to me early on "The landlord's in charge the tenant is not."
I say it's absolutely worth the cost of an eviction to maintain control over my property and investment.
There are plenty of tenants out there that will follow the rules. The cost of the eviction is my education in tenant screening. That cost reminds me during my next vacancy that "a vacancy is a blessing compared to a bad tenant". If I do let someone in who won't follow the rules that's on me and I should in now way compound that error by letting the terms of the lease slide. The longer I do so, the greater the peril.
As @Gerald K. said allowing things to slide can be construed as rewriting the lease. The lease governs and all things not in compliance get brought into line or the tenant moves on one way or another. What's the point of a lease if you let the tenant do whatever they want more or less? Where do you draw the line?
- Real Estate Investor, Flipper, PM, vacation rental, Wholesaler · Athens, GA · Member since 2013 · 260 posts · 210 votes12y
You are right on about the future obligation of the lease. However, from this county's perspective, you will not get a judgement in Clarke County Magistrate awarding you "future" rent under the terms of an existing lease. The best you can do is for past due months, late fees (approx 15% in this county regardless if the lease specifies more in this county) , other administrative and legal fees not only spelled out in the lease, but determined as "reasonable" by the judge.
Contract Performance proceedings will yield different judgments about reimbursement for future values, but leases, in this county, are rather cut and dry as far as what to expect. You might try to tell the tenant anything you want to scare them to action, but be ready to be put in your place by the judge, and they don't like landlord bullies around these parts.
So you can only expect remedy when you evict and a judgement for only "past" and "present" damages... and of course your Writ of Possession. You are right about catching flies with honey, but know when to wield the proverbial flyswatter.
No legal advice.
- 12yRoy N.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
A willful breach of a contract is a tortious action. Even if the tenancy law in your jurisdiction is very explicit about obligations, our observation has been a magistrate is likely to take a paternalistic position vis-a-vie the tenant; give them a tongue lashing; and let them off the hook ... very much like the scenario you described.
That is precisely why I advocate working with the tenant rather than being pedantic about the terms of the lease. My time is better spent getting the property rented to new tenants than chasing old ones through the court system.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes12y
Originally posted by @Thomas Williamson:
I'm going through a situation now where a tenant signed a one year lease that began Nov. 1st. She called last week and said, "Oh I'm sorry, I have to move out because I'm pregnant and the apartment won't be big enough for me two kids and a baby." I said no problem, just pay the balance of the remaining lease, the rent you currently owe, and you won't be getting your security deposit back. She moved out and told me I was crazy if I thought she was going to pay all that.
We now have court in two weeks.
Once she saw I was serious, she told me I could keep the security deposit, she paid all of January's rent, even though she moved out this past weekend, she's now trying to negotiate the remainder of the lease. I refuse to let people steal from me. The moral is, kick them out and get better tenants and enforce the rules upfront each and every time. Good luck.
If she just found out she was pregnant in january , and she has been there 2 months , the 9 additional months that a pregnancy takes moves her into the 11th month of a 1 year lease . I have 2 kids , when they were first born they were in that bassanett thing for at least 2 months in our bedroom . I dont see the need for more "room" right away
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Thomas Williamson:
I'm going through a situation now where a tenant signed a one year lease that began Nov. 1st. She called last week and said, "Oh I'm sorry, I have to move out because I'm pregnant and the apartment won't be big enough for me two kids and a baby." I said no problem, just pay the balance of the remaining lease, the rent you currently owe, and you won't be getting your security deposit back. She moved out and told me I was crazy if I thought she was going to pay all that.
We now have court in two weeks.
Once she saw I was serious, she told me I could keep the security deposit, she paid all of January's rent, even though she moved out this past weekend, she's now trying to negotiate the remainder of the lease. I refuse to let people steal from me. The moral is, kick them out and get better tenants and enforce the rules upfront each and every time. Good luck.
I hope you understand in Georgia you can only force her to pay the rent due until you have found a replacement tenant. AND you must pursue a replacement tenant in an active manner. You can't just let the unit sit vacant. She could nail you for a lot of money if you slip up.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
There is a lot of great information here and yes, it all starts with a strong lease saying the absolute LAST thing a payment is applied to is the current rent. That way, even if they pay and leave off the fees they still have not paid the rent and are subject to eviction.
And to the original question, yes, you absolutely file for anything over $1 because if you don't you as a landlord can lose your ability to ever evict anyone.
Another thing I would encourage is sitting down with a new tenant and reading the lease to them. Then after you read the paragraph about late fees and how payments are applied you can look them in the eye and say, "That means if you owe anything more than the normal rent amount and you just pay the rent, you have not paid the rent and I will start an action to evict you. Do you understand?"
A cheap audio recorder is a wonderful aid in helping them remember your discussion later. ;-0
- Investor · atlanta , GA · Member since 2012 · 287 posts · 148 votes12y
@Joel Owens @Duncan Taylor @Roy N. @Matthew Paul and everyone else who commented on my post. I'm very familiar with the eviction laws in GA and what you can and can't recover. Don't focus on what you can and can't legally recover.
Remember I said, "she's now trying to negotiate the remainder of the lease."
Just because you can't get the money that's owed you while trying to re-let the unit, doesn't mean that you shouldn't try and recover lost rents.
I could just throw up my hands and say, "Well I can't do that in GA, so don't even try." Or the tenant can believe you can do that and negotiate the return of some of the balance of the lease.
Don't leave money on the table just because someone says, "Oh you can't do that." There's nothing illegal about telling a tenant that you're going to try and re-coop lost rents from the remainder of the lease via the courts. If they believe you will and see that you're serious, they just might want to negotiate, as in this case.
Come on folks, be creative.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
You might want to go back and re-read my post. I didn't say you can't recover lost rent.
But, you can't collect double rent. Not even if the former tenant agrees to you collecting double rent.
Just because you successfully negotiate the remainder of the lease with her does not mean you can actually keep the money. If that amount exceeds the actual lost rent amounts you can document and prove, she will have recourse. And depending on how 'creative' her contingency fee paid lawyer might be, it could end up being a very expensive result for you.
- Investor · atlanta , GA · Member since 2012 · 287 posts · 148 votes12y
@Duncan Taylor Your post was clear, and your assuming I'm going to "slip up" as stated in your post.
I'll be more specific for you.
If the tenant agrees on her own to pay whatever balance of the lease that is agreed to by both parties, then that's her decision. Your assuming (again) that this matter is going to court. If we reach a settlement outside of court, then the matter is finished.
There is an anticipated time frame for which the unit will be vacant, therefore those losses can be re-cooped. Your assumption is that I'm getting a large amount of the lease paid for, which is not the case. Again, based on other rent times for the same units, we know how long the unit is going to sit vacant.
So, I don't get caught up in "you can't do that" or "don't slip up."
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Thomas Williamson:
...
If the tenant agrees on her own to pay whatever balance of the lease that is agreed to by both parties, then that's her decision. ...Mr. Match, meet Mr. Gasoline.
Good luck to you, sir.
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes12y
Thomas everyone has the right to run their ship they way they want to.
I understand what you are saying but choose not to do business that way. People that ride close to the flame can get burned. I have spent too many hours in eviction courts and have seen too many cases with tenants and judges to want to play that game.
The key to the whole thing Is has the tenant left the unit yet and removed all personal property or not??
If they are still there pissing them off and having them thrash the place getting thousands in damage to try and collect another 500 in advance rent ( do not know what your monthly rent is just using an example) doesn't make sense. You have to know if the tenant is even judgment proof even if you win in court. The goal for most landlords is to get them out as fast as possible with the least amount of damage to re-rent immediately with a quality tenant and not trying to squeeze them for a couple more bucks. The tenant likely has to have some funds for moving expenses. As you comedown on their world and they see in their eyes what is nickel and diming them to death they usually retaliate in like kind.
You know YOUR lease,YOUR tenant, and YOUR screening process when you placed that tenant and we do not. So again it's your business decision how you go about things. I have seen landlords try all kinds of things in the past including riding the line of self-help evictions. The more it gets to more suburban to rural locations the crazier stuff I usually see. I have seen many landlords get away with things but the few who get called on it pay a heavy price.
- Accountant · Thornton, CO · Member since 2011 · 170 posts · 33 votes12y
Originally posted by @John Thedford:
Your other option is not to renew their lease. If you explain to them you won't be able to renew if problems persist they might straighten up. Sometimes if you tell a tenant you won't renew you run the risk of them getting to be bigger headaches. Diplomacy but firm are the two key words.Personally I like this one if its only $50-$100 in late fees we are talking about. And make sure they know that all late fees not paid will be deducted from their deposit plus interest.
But make sure you communicate that non-payment/late payment is not acceptable and that you aren't just letting it slide. Otherwise they WILL continue to take advantage of you.
- Investor · atlanta , GA · Member since 2012 · 287 posts · 148 votes12y
Update to my situation:
The tenant has now paid three months of the lease in addition to January's rent, and has forfeited her deposit. The the tenant vacated the apartment this past weekend (again as agreed upon) and now I can contact the court today and cancel the upcoming court date.
I'd say that was a pretty successful negotiation (without getting burned or slipping up ;)
I have to say I'm still quite amused at how quickly some investors / landlords are quick to give up without even trying to re-coop money that is owed to them.
Don't let the naysayers stop you.
- Involved In Real Estate · Potomac Falls, VA · Member since 2012 · 203 posts · 31 votes12y
The bottom line is that you are running a business. I learned this the hard way over the past few months. There should not be any room in your business to constantly deviate from your system. You need to make a system that works and stick with it. As your business grows, if you do not have this system, your problems will only multiply. In my system, every new tenants gets one courtesy late payment (if it's only a few days). Otherwise, I NEVER waive a late payment fee, I send a pay or quit notice on day 5 (or whatever the day # is in your state) and on day 10 I send documents to the court. Usually by day 10 I'm getting emails and phone calls with stories about how a unicorn landed on the roof, gored their hedgehog right through the heart which, in turn, shot out a quill that stuck into a visiting father's neck who then lost 7 pints of blood and is in the hospital. The poor tenant is now responsible for the hospital bills. My system no longer has room for sad stories, true or not. You rent only to ADULTS. Your job is not to teach adults how to be adults. Thus, the system.
Get your system in place and stick to it and I think you'll be much happier in life. I'm constantly working on mine and as it improves, so does my blood pressure.
- Real Estate Investor, Flipper, PM, vacation rental, Wholesaler · Athens, GA · Member since 2013 · 260 posts · 210 votes12y
@Thomas Williamson congrats. I guess this time the good guy wins (I wish there was a "sarcasm font"). Not sure if the good guy is defined as a landlord that knowingly intimidates a departing tenant into paying pre-rent that he would not be awarded in a court of law.
You achieved your goal of moving out the tenant and even covered costs with the back-rent and deposit. Now I'm curious, but dubious, if you would consider doing the "right thing" and voluntarily refunding any of those pre-rents if you place a new tenant that covers those periods?
I'm not one to pick a fight, or play holier-than-thou, but greedy landlords hurt the rest of us good ones. Call it Karma or Golden rule, brother. I hope that you don't find yourself over the other side of the barrel someday and in your own words, a "creative" frivolous lawsuit squeezes you and doesn't want to "leave money on the table"? Wouldn't that just stink? Food for thought.
Regardless, thanks for sharing your experience for the review of the collective conscientious. It has certainly sparked discussion. Best of luck in your endeavors.
- Investor · atlanta , GA · Member since 2012 · 287 posts · 148 votes12y
Originally posted by Jack Tucker
"If you had a store, would you let customers walk out with merchandise without paying and then invite them back next month just so you can keep a store full of customers? I agree with everybody posting here - this is business."
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Thomas Williamson:
@Jack Tucker
Originally posted by Jack Tucker
"If you had a store, would you let customers walk out with merchandise without paying and then invite them back next month just so you can keep a store full of customers? I agree with everybody posting here - this is business."
I feel like I am pointing out the obvious here but retailers do exactly that every day.
But your analogy is very flawed. It's just not worth the effort to click the keys to pick it apart.
Everyone gets to run their business any way they want, until someone with more power than they posses steps in.
- Real Estate Investor, Flipper, PM, vacation rental, Wholesaler · Athens, GA · Member since 2013 · 260 posts · 210 votes12y
Thomas, thank for your PM. I'm posting my response as a public softening:
Both our reactions are visceral. I've been hit by deadbeat tenats in my business and love to win back some lost ground by using that strategy. I totally get your point, but have made conscious decisions not to go that route.
Now, if it will take several months to fix up and/or re-let the unit, then that changes the math and your damages are certainly appropriate to do a pre-collect. I'd still suggest that refund of unused pre-rents also be considered after the dust settles once a new tenat is placed.
I am sorry for the satirical tone and really do wish you well.
- Yes it is worth it! They are stealing from your business. Couple of ways to look at it: 1. They already are in control, your losses will begin to mount with eviction, legal fees, vacancy and eventually repairs. 2. Your ride has already begun, you should of served the notice the first month they were late and 11 days is already to long for this month. Once you serve it they won't pay next months either so now will be out 2 months at least. Figure that into your returns. 3. 50 x's the months late pulse the daily rate, add that to your total cash flow and see how it affects your returns.
I have had a couple of properties in Athens GA, one for approximately 15 years, the other for 12. Currently going through my first eviction and hopefully it will be the last. Now getting ready to find help to move furniture out of the house. Tenants occupied the property for 9 years, then separated, and both decided to quit paying rent. I am at the end of my rope and will not tolerate this in the future, be assured.
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