100 amps to 200 amps electrical upgrade for 1000 sq ft unit?

Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2020 · 14 posts · 16 votes

Hello! My property manager is telling me I need to upgrade the electrical panel on one of my units from 100 to 200 amps - the cost will be around $4k. For reference, the unit is a 2/1 and around 1000 sq ft. It is half of a duplex, with the other half having its own 100 amp panel (that has been fine). The pm is telling me the panel is buzzing because it is overloaded and is trying to overwork itself, and that it keeps blowing breakers. This overload has also left the panel extremely damaged. I understand if it needs repairing or even replacing, but does upgrading to 200 amps seem like overkill for a 1000 sq ft unit? If the tenant's needs are requiring more than 100 amps should this be on them? Thanks!

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Henry ClarkPro Member

Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

Not that the box doesnt need replaced but it probably not going to be solved by moving up to 200 amps.

As mentioned have an electrician look at.

Look on the box and see what is connected to each breaker. Also ask the tenants what they have turned on when the breaker blows and which breaker.
.
You probably have several large draws on the same breaker. Should have all of these going to different breakers. Oven, frig, freezer, washer, dryer, heating, cooling, dishwasher, etc. Number of plugins per.

If you have several of these wired together you will still blow breakers with 200 amp.

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Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
2y
See what is in your lease. If it is NNN you have a case. If not, it is most likely on you and that cost sounds about right. Power consumption has increased a lot.
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Dan M.
Real Estate Investor · Unadilla NY · Member since 2017 · 418 posts · 297 votes
2y
Id say just do it and be done with it. You wont have any worries about it for 30+ years and it will add value to resale. Its a cost you probably don't want to deal with but what if now a fire breaks out (unlikely but possible), you were made aware , and did nothing about it? Think it through.
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Scott Mac
Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
2y
Renters should not have to pay for upgrades to your assets.
These breaker cabinets Do have a service line, some have aluminum interior parts, and some have copper interior parts.
Both the cabinet and the Breakers have a service life.
If it is buzzing, it should not be. That seems like it might be a fire hazard.
It definitely needs attention right now.
Electricity on rentals too many people is a foreign language.
If it were mine, I would have an electrician, a master electrician come out [pay for this, and meet the person at the site) and have an assessment done of both units regarding end of service life, needed fixes, and anything else the person notices that needs to be dealt with.
Doing so, with attitude towards possibly having to refurbish, replace the electrical systems in both units. Wires plug switches light fixtures, add fixtures add switches etcetera.
Which may have already been done by the management company electrician. Check with them and see if there's a written report on both units.
Will it get you any more rent, probably not. This isn't 1949, the electrical code has changed for good reason, and it's your asset you can rent it out any way you want.
But you're aware of a potential hazard, the buzzing, in fact this is to be fixed asap. It should not be buzzing.
Good Luck!
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Danielle Hake
OP
Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2020 · 14 posts · 16 votes
2y
Thank you all for the quick responses. I will proceed with the upgrade to a 200 amp panel today, just wanted a sanity check here.
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Glen Wiley
Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2023 · 459 posts · 474 votes
2y
Did the Pm get that info from an electrician or is he playing the role of electrician.
This is important - we have a few 1000sf rentals that run just fine on 100A panels. If you are not using electric heat then you do not need 200A service (ours have natural gas for heat, stove and hot water).
I recommend you get a licensed electrician to diagnose the problem.
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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
2y
@Danielle Hake
That does seem like overkill
Have you checked on what is drawing that much juice as there should be no reason a 1000sf home needs 200 amps
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Henry ClarkPro Member
Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y
Not that the box doesnt need replaced but it probably not going to be solved by moving up to 200 amps.

As mentioned have an electrician look at.
Look on the box and see what is connected to each breaker. Also ask the tenants what they have turned on when the breaker blows and which breaker.
.
You probably have several large draws on the same breaker. Should have all of these going to different breakers. Oven, frig, freezer, washer, dryer, heating, cooling, dishwasher, etc. Number of plugins per.
If you have several of these wired together you will still blow breakers with 200 amp.

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David M.
Morris County, NJ · Member since 2020 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
@Danielle Hake
100amps insufficient for a 1000 sqft rental in this day and age? We have regular size houses, 2000+sqft, still running on 100 amps no problem in my area.
You really should check into what is the cause of the issue. If the breakers are popping, then there is too much being drawn on the circuit. Is every breaker popping? Or, just certain ones? Is the tenant running a bunch of heaters or something? Even if you replaced, the panel, the individual circuits can only handle so much electricity. So, upping the feed into the house won't help.
Maybe its something wrong with the wiring --- probably not so likely if the other half of the duplex is okay.
What is age of the house?
What are the utilities? Is it electric resistance heated? OIl or natural gas?
Yeah, ignoring electric issues is bad, but it should be addressed correctly. Happy to chat. Good luck.
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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Let me be blunt. Your PM is an idiot. Tell him to put his 'opinion' in writing and that you may go to court with it. You know he won't because he has zero clue.
100 Amps is a sufficient service for 1000 SF unit. Your problem is likely something else....now the panel if older may have deficiencies, but if in good order it should fine. Save your money and fire your PM.
However, if you have money to burn, go ahead and upgrade, it never hurts....
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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Bear in mind that the 100 Amps is never being used all at the same time. Even if they have a Meth Lab going, 100 Amps should be fine....
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Account Closed
Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Henry Clark:

Not that the box doesnt need replaced but it probably not going to be solved by moving up to 200 amps.

As mentioned have an electrician look at.
Look on the box and see what is connected to each breaker. Also ask the tenants what they have turned on when the breaker blows and which breaker.
.
You probably have several large draws on the same breaker. Should have all of these going to different breakers. Oven, frig, freezer, washer, dryer, heating, cooling, dishwasher, etc. Number of plugins per.

If you have several of these wired together you will still blow breakers with 200 amp.

What has likely happened is someone has spliced a line or two from another line for "convenience" (likely in the attic). The draw on the breaker exceeds it's limit, just barely and when certain lights/outlets/appliances start up, it trips the breaker.

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David M.
Morris County, NJ · Member since 2020 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
@Bruce Woodruff thanks saying what I was thinking!! LOL
I could see them literally burning up 100amps if they had crypto miners, in which case the place would be a loud sauna…
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Jeremy Horton
Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Danielle Hake:

Thank you all for the quick responses. I will proceed with the upgrade to a 200 amp panel today, just wanted a sanity check here.

If you HAVE to replace the electrical box because it's old/had a recall or there is some issue with it - then ok. That's a reason to replace the electrical box. If a breaker keeps flipping then maybe it's just an old breaker, maybe that individual breaker is overloaded
A 100 amp box for a 1000sqft rental unit is completely fine. Only place I could see a problem MAY be the kitchen - if they were running a toaster oven, microwave etc at the same time on the same outlet/circuit. Anything that heats up should essentially have it's own breaker. Regardless the tenant can simply plug their small appliance in somewhere else. I'm not spending 4k so you can have the convenience of plugging 10 things on one circuit lol.
Wtf would you need a 200 amp box for? A 200 amp box in itself will not solve any issues - this will just give you more room to add breakers. And there is no way anywhere close to 100 amps is ever being used at once.
Crazy. I'd get an electrician to take a look at the "buzzing" but that could be something very simple
1 Reply
Michael SmytheBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit · Member since 2023 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
1) have licensed electrician check if they can swap lines on breakers to better distribute the house loads. May only have 1 or 2 overloaded breakers that the loads can be distributed to other breakers.
--NOTE: many contractors won't want to do this and will push for the upgraded panel simply because they'll make more money off you!
2) Get at least one other bid as $4k seems high.
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Carlos Ptriawan
Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y
hahaha whatever the reason and outcome is , you just need one honest electrician to access the house. LOL.
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Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y
@Danielle Hake We have 100 Amps on apartments, no issues. It may be the box is bad or there what is connected to each circuit breaker isn't balanced. If you have to replace the panel which if it is buzzing you may have to have them quote upgraded service to 200 amps vs just a panel replacement and addressing the breaker loads. You should be talking to the electrician and not through the PM on this one. Get quotes other than her preferred guy but make sure they have good references/qualifications. We also have 150 amps on an all electric 3 bedroom so not sure if upping to that level saves any money/trouble.
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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
2y
While 100 amps should be sufficent, it either A) is not in this situation or B) Something is wrong with the existing panel to have these problems constantly.
In either case it sounds like the panel needs to be replaced, and if it is being replaced...the cost of the upgrade is marginal to go to a 200 amp service versus just replacing it with another 100 amp panel.
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Bud Gaffney
Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
It's on you. Just upgrade to the 200 amp and move on.
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Bud Gaffney
Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
The 4K is a write off and adds value to your asset. Cost is on you.
1 Reply
Sean Mahoney
Member since 2022 · 1 post · 0 votes
2y
200 amp is excessive for a 1000 sq ft unit.
Get a price on a 150 Amp 30 circuit.
Upgrading the panel will add value to the unit. Older units had 100 amp panels installed before instant ( tankless ) electric hot water heaters , microwaves, wine coolers, sp,it HVAC units for garages etc were used. A load calculation can be done by an electrical contractor.
All of those options would be possible with a 150 Amp upgrade.
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Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y
@Danielle Hake Also if the box is bad your real issue will be how long will it take to get 200 amps in. We had an issue with involving the electric company for an upgrade so we went with the same amp service because the additional time to get the electric company in. That said half the electric to the house was gone and the electrician was saying we were better off doing it immediately. Possibly we needed additional service from the road to upgrade and a new meter? so talk to the power company depending on what you are doing.
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Jacob Beavers
Member since 2021 · 5 posts · 3 votes
2y
@Danielle Hake Hey, There i'm local Electrician in Dayton, Columbus area. 100 amps is more than enough for, apartment unit. In brand new multi-family buildings today we only install 100-125amp panels. if you have a super old panel have to the property look and see if its been recalled or find out if multiply breakers are tripping and not just the same one a tenant pluging in multiply electric heaters in on the same breaker/circuit. Also 4k is a little step unless they are also pulling permit and getting it inspected.
1 Reply
Alan F.
Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Danielle Hake:

Hello! My property manager is telling me I need to upgrade the electrical panel on one of my units from 100 to 200 amps - the cost will be around $4k. For reference, the unit is a 2/1 and around 1000 sq ft. It is half of a duplex, with the other half having its own 100 amp panel (that has been fine). The pm is telling me the panel is buzzing because it is overloaded and is trying to overwork itself, and that it keeps blowing breakers. This overload has also left the panel extremely damaged. I understand if it needs repairing or even replacing, but does upgrading to 200 amps seem like overkill for a 1000 sq ft unit? If the tenant's needs are requiring more than 100 amps should this be on them? Thanks!

The amperage of the panel is relevant also to the amount of circuit breaker spaces, sometimes referred to as poles. A single pole breaker occupies 1 space, a 2 pole (240volt) circuit occupies 2 spaces. Its very common to upgrade to a 200 amp panel in order to accommodate using full size breakers, and eliminate "twins", "slims" or double tapped breakers.
The material difference between the 2 panels is minimal and the labor is typically comparable. Thus its better to have the 200amp panel which will have spaces left for future additional circuits.
Buzzing or chattering is typically a loose connection where the breaker is plugged onto the buss bar. An individual breaker will chatter due to a heavy load on that specific circuit. Space heaters, blow dryers and other high loading items can exacerbate the chattering. 1 thing to note is when a breaker trips, that's a good thing. We want the breaker to be the weak link, thus not burning up the conductor (wire)
I'd get 3 estimates from licensed electrical contractors and carefully compare the scope of work. Whomever does the work should be permitting it and your PM should be there and report back to you accordingly.
It would be best if the panels breakers have both magnetic and thermal overload protection.
In electrical, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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Henry T.
Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
200 is overkill, but there's nothing wrong with moving up and being ready for the future. You'll have the extra amperage available for EV charging. Get lots of bids. I did 3 panels this year. The bids ranged from 3.2k to 8k. I hired the 3.2k guy. No complaints.
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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Henry T.:

200 is overkill, but there's nothing wrong with moving up and being ready for the future. You'll have the extra amperage available for EV charging. Get lots of bids. I did 3 panels this year. The bids ranged from 3.2k to 8k. I hired the 3.2k guy. No complaints.

Yeah, I used to pay $3000 - $4000 for panel upgrades. And as you say, more is better. I just don't think it's necessary in this case....
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