Is it normal to have to hand-hold an architect on design?

Is it normal to have to hand-hold an architect on design?

Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 5 votes

I’d love to hear your experiences with architects.

I'm not impressed by his design skills. While he knows standard dimensions well, I found myself providing my own ideas for floor plans to get the most out of the square footage.

The buildings or lots we work with are tight, so we do have to be very creative, but I found that my general contractor (/investor partner) and I are finding much better floor plan ideas than he did and I wasn't impressed by his creativity.

For example, for a flip we were able to fit 2 master bedrooms where he proposed a far less efficient design, and on a rental, I had to point out that we could extend the building length by 4 feet and that he was too conservative with the rear setback. My general contractor and I also easily pointed out a way to expand the building which allowed for a few more bedrooms across the multiple floors, things he missed completely. Is this lack of creativity normal, or should I find someone new?

I’m working on my third flip/rental project. My architect is great with technical code and dimensions, but lacks the vision.

Since I’m paying premium fees, I expected more proactive design work.

Is this typical for investor-focused architects, or should I switch?

I never worked with a different architect and I think I might want to try my luck elsewhere. How much hand-holding do you do?

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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
7mo

This is not normal. You'll want to find architects specific to what you are doing, similar to doctors. There are different types of architects that specialize in different types of things and you want to find an architect who is good at home remodeling and has a vision. Typically these firms have some type of interior design component to them as well. 

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  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7mo

    Not all Architects are good at everything, much like not all Doctors can do everything.  When I'm designing, I want a lot of input from my clients, but that's just so I have an understanding of what they like and need.  Sometimes the client is overbearing, meaning they don't listen to their Architect because they have their own predetermined solutions and just want the Architect to "sign off" on them.

    The relationship between the Architect and the client is much like a marriage sometimes.  Each has their own skills and talents which should be exploited and understood by all parties.

    My suggestion would be to find an Architect that is involved with rental RE, maybe even an investor too. I've had a number of relationships like that and they all worked out much better for all parties because the Architect has a base understanding for what the client, in this case a REI, is looking for.

    As far as efficient creativity goes, like any profession, not all Architects have the same level of skill here.  Some have their own ideas that they try to inject into designs that really don't belong.  Architects have their own preferences just like the client.  Sometimes the relationship works, and sometimes it doesn't.  If this one isn't working, you may need to look elsewhere, or the cost of doing business will be out of control.  One of the partners of efficient space design is efficient cost design.

  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 681 posts · 476 votes
    7mo

    Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 

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    • Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 5 votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Jared W Smith:

      Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 


       Licensed architect. I'm just not impressed by their creativity.

    • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
      Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 681 posts · 476 votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Ron S.:
      Quote from @Jared W Smith:

      Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 


       Licensed architect. I'm just not impressed by their creativity.

       Hmm.. what you explained isn't complex. I agree. Sounds like he's outside his element.   

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    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Ron S.:
      Quote from @Jared W Smith:

      Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 


       Licensed architect. I'm just not impressed by their creativity.


      its really importnat to work with the arch  they cant read your mind. U can have the best plans then when they go to frame the house the framer has to change things because the plans done really work.. been there done that many times. 
    • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
      Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Ron S.:
      Quote from @Jared W Smith:

      Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 


       Licensed architect. I'm just not impressed by their creativity.


      its really importnat to work with the arch  they cant read your mind. U can have the best plans then when they go to frame the house the framer has to change things because the plans done really work.. been there done that many times. 
      I had a structural engineer in school who had a saying, "if you can't build it, don't design it".  This covers a lot of things such as structure, construction options, cost (that's the biggest one), and more.  Creativity isn't restricted to aesthetics. 
      Buildings are a combination of many systems that must work together...like the human body, or a car.  You can have the greatest fuel system in the world, but if the electrical system is so fouled up the car won't start, how good is the fuel system?  On the same mindset, if the design works in every way, but the budget is so far out of Wack it can't be built, how good is the design?  All the systems must work together.  This is the true test of the Architect, and the true test of the relationship between the Architect and client.
    • Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 5 votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Joe Villeneuve:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Ron S.:
      Quote from @Jared W Smith:

      Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 


       Licensed architect. I'm just not impressed by their creativity.


      its really importnat to work with the arch  they cant read your mind. U can have the best plans then when they go to frame the house the framer has to change things because the plans done really work.. been there done that many times. 
      I had a structural engineer in school who had a saying, "if you can't build it, don't design it".  This covers a lot of things such as structure, construction options, cost (that's the biggest one), and more.  Creativity isn't restricted to aesthetics. 
      Buildings are a combination of many systems that must work together...like the human body, or a car.  You can have the greatest fuel system in the world, but if the electrical system is so fouled up the car won't start, how good is the fuel system?  On the same mindset, if the design works in every way, but the budget is so far out of Wack it can't be built, how good is the design?  All the systems must work together.  This is the true test of the Architect, and the true test of the relationship between the Architect and client.

      That's true. I make sure to bring it up as soon as possible that this is a rental and not my dream home. It's important to factor construction costs and return on investment. Build what I need, not what I can. I don't need a super spacious 2-bed if it will only bring in $50 more in rent a month than a more modest one. I also don't need a balcony if it's a liability.

      There's a fine balance to walk

    • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
      Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Ron S.:
      Quote from @Joe Villeneuve:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Ron S.:
      Quote from @Jared W Smith:

      Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 


       Licensed architect. I'm just not impressed by their creativity.


      its really importnat to work with the arch  they cant read your mind. U can have the best plans then when they go to frame the house the framer has to change things because the plans done really work.. been there done that many times. 
      I had a structural engineer in school who had a saying, "if you can't build it, don't design it".  This covers a lot of things such as structure, construction options, cost (that's the biggest one), and more.  Creativity isn't restricted to aesthetics. 
      Buildings are a combination of many systems that must work together...like the human body, or a car.  You can have the greatest fuel system in the world, but if the electrical system is so fouled up the car won't start, how good is the fuel system?  On the same mindset, if the design works in every way, but the budget is so far out of Wack it can't be built, how good is the design?  All the systems must work together.  This is the true test of the Architect, and the true test of the relationship between the Architect and client.

      That's true. I make sure to bring it up as soon as possible that this is a rental and not my dream home. It's important to factor construction costs and return on investment. Build what I need, not what I can. I don't need a super spacious 2-bed if it will only bring in $50 more in rent a month than a more modest one. I also don't need a balcony if it's a liability.

      There's a fine balance to walk

      I have come across many Architects that feel the need to design monuments to themselves.  The client knows what they want/need.  The Architects job is to find the best, most cost-effective ways, to achieve that.
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Joe Villeneuve:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Ron S.:
      Quote from @Jared W Smith:

      Sounds like a novice. Is this person an actual licensed architect? Or are they a drafter or unlicensed person within the architectural industry? They may just not be creative in the scenarios that you need them to be. Why pay a premium if they aren't holding their weight. I'd say figure out what you need most in your projects and seek out another architect that is more aligned with those things. 


       Licensed architect. I'm just not impressed by their creativity.


      its really importnat to work with the arch  they cant read your mind. U can have the best plans then when they go to frame the house the framer has to change things because the plans done really work.. been there done that many times. 
      I had a structural engineer in school who had a saying, "if you can't build it, don't design it".  This covers a lot of things such as structure, construction options, cost (that's the biggest one), and more.  Creativity isn't restricted to aesthetics. 
      Buildings are a combination of many systems that must work together...like the human body, or a car.  You can have the greatest fuel system in the world, but if the electrical system is so fouled up the car won't start, how good is the fuel system?  On the same mindset, if the design works in every way, but the budget is so far out of Wack it can't be built, how good is the design?  All the systems must work together.  This is the true test of the Architect, and the true test of the relationship between the Architect and client.

       I have also run into this with Engineers designing roads and utls and then the underground guy is like  " I cant build that the way he designed it wont work"  :)

  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7mo

    I use a drafter. He measures the site  and then he draws what I want to completion.  $50/hr. Adds in all the rest that the permit office wants to see and it sails right thru. I know what I want and I have some construction knowledge. I usually draw my own hideous plan with dimensions, he makes it pretty and includes all details. That's more than hand holding I guess. My last DADU took him 20 hours. Would have been less but he changed things after he finished the first draft. Fun and easy to work with.

    • Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 5 votes
      7mo
      Quote from @Henry T.:

      I use a drafter. He measures the site  and then he draws what I want to completion.  $50/hr. Adds in all the rest that the permit office wants to see and it sails right thru. I know what I want and I have some construction knowledge. I usually draw my own hideous plan with dimensions, he makes it pretty and includes all details. That's more than hand holding I guess. My last DADU took him 20 hours. Would have been less but he changed things after he finished the first draft. Fun and easy to work with.


      That's cheap! I don't have construction knowledge, but I'm getting there and the general contractor that does my work is a good friend so he gives me insights. I can sketch a crude layout.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7mo

    This is not normal. You'll want to find architects specific to what you are doing, similar to doctors. There are different types of architects that specialize in different types of things and you want to find an architect who is good at home remodeling and has a vision. Typically these firms have some type of interior design component to them as well. 

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  • Jonathan KlemmBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7mo

    100% always you have to hold everyone had in the real estate world until you've worked with them enough and know, like, and trust them.  @Ron S.

    That specifically includes architects and general contractors!  As Chicago GC myself, I've found that many many clients with go to an architect and design exactly what they want, have it take 2-3X longer than expected, and then not have the budget for what they got approved.

    The better you can give your architect a crystal clear scope with something that you have already budgeted out for the better.  

    Don't design then budget, budget and then design to that budget!

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