Rejecting the pain in the butt applicant without getting sued

General Landlording & Rental Properties
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Rejecting the pain in the butt applicant without getting sued

Kimberly H.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes

So we all agree obvious PITA applicants are to be avoided. To those more experienced out there, how do you reject them without them claiming discrimination and suing you? I'd like to tell this applicant that "I'm renting to someone else" but what if I don't get that someone else for a while?

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Account Closed
Property Manager · Big Bear Lake, CA · Member since 2013 · 585 posts · 330 votes
12y

@Glenn McCrorey She means PITA: "Pain In The ***".

If they call and ask about their application, tell them that you are still taking applications. Then as soon as someone qualifies, tell them you have accepted another applicant and wish them good luck in their search.

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  • Phillip Dwyer
    Real Estate Agent · Henderson, NV · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 550 votes
    12y

    @Kimberly H. The advice others have given about incomplete applications is your best bet here.  The first thing I do when I receive an incomplete application, including an application only filled out by one of the adult parties that plans to live there, is contact the applicant to explain that the application is incomplete as received.  I then tell them that their application will be placed on hold until all required information is received, and that I will continue to process other applications as received.  

    Read Mike Butler's book on land lording.  His tips on tenant screening are great.  Consider adding to your rental criteria:  a fully completed application.  Then define what that means.

    2Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    12y

    I suggest you establish a scoring system where you grade an applicant on various criteria; the applicant must achieve a certain minimum score to pass and be accepted. @Michele Fischer has a spreadsheet that does the trick (or at least it can be a starting point); maybe she will share that. 

    1Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    How many of you who worry about this stuff have been SUED on this issue.

    I bet NO one.. unless your just an absolute blatant A hole  IE you tell them to their face you rent to them because they are such and such.. NO is going to SUE you .. get over this stuff. these folks can hardly afford rent much less SUE you...

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  • Michele FischerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    This has been a really fun thread to read, even before I was tagged in it.  I am shaking my head at two of you... dialog and different perspectives are good, but chill out!

    We try to weed through some of the applicant BS by trying to make some of the subjective attributes more quantifiable and verifiable.  We have started to rate applicants on these PITA items:

    Reason for moving: responsible/compelling vs. drama/noise/neighbor issues

    Indications fussy or drama: long messages, repeats self, overly assertive, many/late calls/texts

    Google/Facebook search: responsible, or high drama, etc

    I'd be happy to send my scoring system to anyone who wants to send me their e-mail address (PM or tagging me).

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  • Dean Letfus
    Specialist · Memphis, TN · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Tenants a pain??? Surely you jest :-)  Tenants make property investors rich don't they??

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  • Gary Shaw
    Real Estate Investor · Country Club Hills, IL · Member since 2013 · 67 posts · 22 votes
    12y

    @Michelle L.

    To whom would this dangerous/intimidating behavior have been directed?  Would the PITA applicant have to have said something d/i to you during the course of the conversation, or to someone else, and how would you know they did it to someone else?

    Just in case PITA-Americans do become a protected class, I like to know how to deal with rejecting them. :)

    0Reply
  • Kendall T.
    Real Estate Investor · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2014 · 132 posts · 57 votes
    12y

    Lots of great info in all these comments.  This is one of the reasons bigger pockets is so great.  

    I really feel that if a potential tenant is rude to you before they move in, it will only get worse  later.

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  • Kimberly H.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs 

    replace "sue" with "contact HUD with a complaint"

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  • Kimberly H.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs And btw, you should know that tenants *can* sue without having money because lawyers can take cases contingency fee only, as in, the client doesn't have to pay anything if the lawyer loses, and if the lawyer wins the lawyer gets a cut of the winnings.

    1Reply
  • Lynn McGeein
    Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    I recently had one of these, We're moving into town and want to rent sight unseen, and didn't want to take, Sorry, I don't rent sight unseen, for an answer.  Even with a very firm statement from me, they kept contacting me trying to convince me what great tenants they would be (which only damaged their case further).  While I have some sympathy for them as we moved across the country for work and had to find a place in 3 days that also accepts a large dog, it also gives me some perspective.  I finally ended with, Sorry, I don't rent sight unseen, but there are several apartment complexes that rent short-term, like we had to do when we moved to this area, and then you'd have time to view properties after your arrival.  After that, they didn't call back.      

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Kimberly H. 

    I fully understand pro bono legal aid shops and complaints to HUD I owed over 200 homes that had HUD tenants in them.. Unless your just blatant ( which I doubt you would be since your already worried about it enough to post on a public forum about the issue). The tenant gets turned down for whatever reason they just go the next landlord that is desperate to rent and will take a HUD voucher as the only qualification from the tenant. this is very common in areas with very large % of Hud tenants.

    I guess I just fall back on my 40 years at this and people just get crazy worried about getting sued.. of course it happens but its far more common in partnership disputes than with contract disputes or tenant disputes. At least I have never had one.. and If I did here is how it would go.

    Tenant gets mad goes to pro bono shop.. you get a letter.. You respond and make piece end of the discussion those that get in trouble get bull headed and try to fight these little fights instead of just moving on and maybe giving the aggrieved tenant 500 bucks to go away that will usually do it :)

    Now if your a serial offender and have a big operation this is another story completely but for all intense and purposes some small time investor with a few homes to rent just does not fall into the category of deep pockets. Law suits cost a heck of a lot of money

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  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs is right about the lawsuits. A banker I know, who is also a landlord, told me that a tenant once tried to sue him for blocking off part of the property's sidewalk while he had it repaired. The tenant's kid removed the blockade, witnessed by neighbors, and rode his bike across the hole, fell, and there was an instant "scare" letter sent from an attorney. 

    The banker told me that tenants with money will have to pay an attorney as opposed to getting free legal aid, and any attorney that realizes there's no chance of winning will go no further than a scare letter without a retainer. And with a very small chance of winning, the tenant didn't want to spend any money on it. The banker said he didn't even answer the letter....he said if a certified letter with a court date arrived, then he'd acknowledge it. It never did.

    3Reply
  • Adam K.
    Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 74 posts · 40 votes
    12y

    That should have disqualified them right there if they don't provide all required documents.

     I send out "Tenant Screening Criteria" with all applications so it has been disclosed upfront what they need to do, provide and what disqualifies them. They must sign and return the criteria with the application. Usually they sign it and don't read it and neither do their agents but either way you can deny them for there.

    Here is a few lines from my TSC form, (not in order)

    - Applicant(s) shall be disapproved if we are unable to verify income, rental, credit, or criminal history. False, incomplete, or misleading statements or omissions on the application(s) will result in disapproval of the rental applications(s).

    - A decision on an application may be delayed due to delays in the verification process. This could result in the home being offered to another applicant who submitted their application later but the information was readily verifiable, which concluded in being able to make a decision of approval or disapproval and offer of home prior to another earlier dated rental application.

    - Any information listed on the application that is not provided, left out, incomplete found to be false or intentionally misleading will result in the application being denied.

    - You declare that you have read and understand the information in this RESIDENT SELECTION CRITERIA document. You acknowledge that by signing this document if your application is denied due to items, situations or circumstances listed in this document that your application fee will not be returned.

     You shouldn't be working this hard on an applicant for them to follow the simple directions of your process , dump them. The right one will come along with everything in line, filled out and ready to go. If this is your only application then re-evaluate your pricing and product to find out why.

    5Reply
  • Kelli Bristol
    Real Estate Broker · Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 11 posts · 3 votes
    12y

    I would think their inability/unwillingness to easily follow the rental application process would be a legal reason to not rent to them.  I would document the calls, questions, and strange behaviors.  If you're using a smart-phone, utilize the "block number" technology and get these crazy people out of your life.  

    Regarding phone use, I don't see how anyone can effectively do business without talking to people face to face or on the phone.  Call me old fashioned, but the telephone is the most powerful tool we have in this business.  Plus there are many states (Louisiana included) that also require phone numbers and a host of other information on every single marketing piece, electronic or paper.  

    0Reply
  • Kimberly H.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    12y

    @Aly W. 

    I'm not talking pro bono. I'm talking contingency fee. It doesn't exist in all states, but it does in my state. "The basic concept of the contingency fee agreement is that the client is out little or no upfront expenses; you as a client do not pay legal fees unless and until you win, and then the lawyer receives a percentage of your recovery as his or her fee. If you lose your case, there is no legal fee at all for the lawyer."
    And of course when they lose, which they will, I'm out my legal fees. You can't hire contingency fee defense when the person suing has no assets.

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Kimberly H. 

      of course in theory your correct.. but in practice at least in my years in the bizz.. No lawyer is going to take this kind of case on a continency .. Case's have value  there is a value if it goes to trial and there is settlement value. The damages must be established and the damages just are not enough to fuel this kind of litigation on either side.

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  • Kimberly H.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs I see, good to know!

    @Adam K. thank you very much! I do have a "tenant screening criteria" document that one of them signed but it doesn't have all that verbiage in it. I am putting that in going forward.

    After the 5th call I have had all their numbers going directly to voicemail. I will not be corresponding with them on the phone any more, only email if absolutely needed.

    0Reply
  • Troy Owen
    Investor · Whitefish Bay, WI · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 7 votes
    12y

    @Kimberly H. Some states do not require you to provide a reason.  You may want to contact your local apartment association for your answer.  Its hard to say with Illionois :)

    1Reply
  • Kimberly H.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    12y

    Great point @Troy Owen ! I had been thinking my only option was my insanely expensive landlord-tenant attorney. I just joined NTN and the guy who runs ours is a wealth of knowledge, I will try him.

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    Lots of good advice and you probably have a few ways to reject them now.  

    I have to say though when I was reading this a phenomenal 21st century development named call blocking came to mind...    

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  • Kimberly H.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    12y

    Talked to a knowledgable guy at NTN who's been dealing with rentals for years. He said although PITAs are not a protected class, since these people *are* in a protected class, he doesn't advise that I summarily brush them off until I have a better reason than PITA-ism. 

    Not exactly sure why people think I haven't figured out the call routing/blocking technology after the third call...(I've had it routed directly to vmail so I can see how many times they called so I can assess PITA levels and not be disturbed)...

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    I didn't think you hadn't thought of it ,   it is just what that kind of PITA person brings to mind no reflection on you or intent to offend.     I am happy we have such tools to manage this kind of  behavior these days! 

    1Reply
  • Lynn McGeein
    Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Kimberly H.:

    Talked to a knowledgable guy at NTN who's been dealing with rentals for years. He said although PITAs are not a protected class, since these people *are* in a protected class, he doesn't advise that I summarily brush them off until I have a better reason than PITA-ism.... 

    So their rationale that they should not have to fill out an application or be screened properly and don't want to both appear at your scheduled viewings and want a discount on the rent on top of that is not a better reason than just PITA?

    I'm actually really enjoying this thread, as I always have apprehension with every prospective tenant thinking I'm going to do or say something that could get me in trouble.   I've learned to have a system and stick with the system to avoid issues, but people are always trying to throw wrenches in it.    I've learned that the ones that try to make you think they are the exception to the rule are the ones to stay far away from, but sometimes it's hard to know how to do it without compounding the problem.

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  • Kimberly H.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    12y

    @Lynn McGeein That's exactly it, I have a system and then someone shows up and presents a situation that isn't in the system yet. 

    @Colleen F. I just wised up this time around with VAs, Google Voice, Gmail with filters and canned responses; all that has made this less work. A couple years ago when we figured out our stood up rate on rental showing was about 50% and went to rental open houses twice a week was another breakthrough. Then I join BiggerPockets a few months ago and see others have already figured all this out. Trying not to reinvent the wheel myself every time by taking advantage of the collective BiggerPockets knowledge and local REI meetings.

    0Reply
  • Adam K.
    Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 74 posts · 40 votes
    12y

    I have mentioned this in other posts.

    No showings until a completed application is received and I have made a few phone calls. . I get responses from applicants that act as if they are insulted and ask why they have to submit an application before even seeing the property. I tell them the same thing everytime

    " I have to make sure your qualified to rent the property.....    ...... Ok great, fill out the application and if everything is good we can possibly see it tomorrow.......... "

    And they never send the application back, I just screened them with a phone call or email.

    I am not aware of the law that states you must show a property to every person that requests it.

     Its not feasible to run out and show the property to every person that clicked on the listing who may be just looking, still a few months out, looking for someone else, etc.

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