Billings, MT · Member since 2013 · 102 posts · 11 votes
I have a guy who wants to do a roof job for me on the side. He works for a licensed roofer, but is not insured or licensed himself. Should I run away and why? By the way, it would save me about $2000.
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
12y
typical BP answer.
"No dont do it. Only do it by the book"
Real answer.
"Saving 2k is awesome. Yes there is risk involved. If the guy gets hurt and sues you your screwed. How well do you know him? How likely is it that this will happen? Is he a standup guy?
You have met him, none of us have. It's a calculated risk that only you have enough information to make the correct decision.
It is not about having no risk. It is about taking calculated risks and making money in exchange for taking those risks.
Anyone who has done a large amount of business & claims to have never hired someone to do something under the table EVER is probably lying to themselves or to the forums.
Investor · Pearland, TX · Member since 2014 · 11 posts · 0 votes
12y
Is the $2000 savings enough reward if he or his crew injures themselves and sues you? Is the $2000 savings enough reward if the city shuts you down mid-repair? Is the $2000 savings enough reward if he does shoddy work and you get sued in the future by tenants or new owners? Etc...
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
Roofing doesn't generally require a license, at least not in Texas.
I was raised by my grandparents. Every spring my grandfather shingled a couple of houses. We used that money to take an amazing 2-week vacation every summer, while the aerospace contractor he worked for was doing turnover at their plant.
He had been a roofer, when he was younger. His 2 brothers were roofing contractors, and he would occasionally help them. But, his reputation was so stellar in our town that people sought him out.
If I had a roofer that had references from people I knew & trusted, I would use him in a heartbeat. His status with licenses &/or insurance wouldn't dissuade me.
Investor · Lafayette/Baton Rouge, LA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 915 votes
12y
@Dennis Nemitz I'm going to ask a rhetorical question, so you only have to answer this for yourself, not me. What is your personal net worth and would you bet that against $2000? That's all that you are risking.
Wow! I guess I think a little like J Scott, because I typed this at the same time he was typing and his message appeared above my post!
Littleton, CO · Member since 2014 · 195 posts · 72 votes
12y
If you decided to use this guy and something happens to him or his helpers while doing your roof, how much will it cost you in higher insurance rates (and deductible) if you have to file a claim? Does he have the capability to buy the shingles at a supply house at the same discount that his regular boss gets? What happens if the quality of work does not pass the inspections by the county/city when they come by to do inspections? Will he come back and fix the problem items in a timely matter?
Not worth the stress or any problems that might arise IMHO.
How did you meet this guy? Did he approach you or is he a mutual acquaintance?
How many estimates have you gotten? Curious minds want to know.
Billings, MT · Member since 2013 · 102 posts · 11 votes
12y
Multiple estimates. Then when I call them to do the job, they either don't respond back or say send me half the money and we will get to you when we get to you. We had a major spring hail storm and al the roofers have more work than they can handle. I met him through another contractor that uses him. I was reluctant to use him for multiple reasons, but wanted to learn from the real experts here in this forum. By the way, flat roofs are a pain in the rear.
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
12y
typical BP answer.
"No dont do it. Only do it by the book"
Real answer.
"Saving 2k is awesome. Yes there is risk involved. If the guy gets hurt and sues you your screwed. How well do you know him? How likely is it that this will happen? Is he a standup guy?
You have met him, none of us have. It's a calculated risk that only you have enough information to make the correct decision.
It is not about having no risk. It is about taking calculated risks and making money in exchange for taking those risks.
Anyone who has done a large amount of business & claims to have never hired someone to do something under the table EVER is probably lying to themselves or to the forums.
Investor | Syndicator | Instructor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2008 · 435 posts · 198 votes
12y
Dennis-
My post would have been exactly as James Wise above. Reality of running any investment asset has costs, risks and benefits. Only you can make the judgment since only you know all the facts.
You have met him, none of us have. It's a calculated risk that only you have enough information to make the correct decision.
It is not about having no risk. It is about taking calculated risks and making money in exchange for taking those risks.
Anyone who has done a large amount of business & claims to have never hired someone to do something under the table EVER is probably lying to themselves or to the forums.
Absolutely agree about taking calculated risks. For me, it's well worth the risk to hire an interior painter without insurance; it's well worth the risk to hire a plumber without insurance; it's well worth the risk to hire a tile guy without insurance. The reason it's worth the risk is that the likelihood of any of them getting hurt on the job is small, the likelihood of any of them getting seriously hurt is almost none.
That's not the case with roofers. It's a high-risk job, as evidenced by the fact that they have higher workers comp rates than most any other residential contractor. Even if the guy is a great guy who would never do anything unethical, that doesn't mean he won't slip and fall off a roof. And if he does, there's a pretty good chance he'll choose his own financial/health considerations over yours. And it doesn't even have to be him who gets hurt -- it could be one of his guys.
Not saying someone else shouldn't do it...everyone has their own risk/reward thresholds. I'm just saying that I personally wouldn't do it with a roofer, regardless of how well I knew him and how good he was at his job...
Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
12y
I paid thousands additional trying to save pennies. Get someone who is licensed, bonded, and insured. If you get it done right the first time by qualified people you probably avoid any headaches. Or..you could encourage this guy to start his own company, get insurance, get bonded, and then hire him and demand the same price:)
Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
I would be concerned about the no insurance part. As far as not being licensed, when you hire a roofer, there might be eight guys on your roof and not one of them is licensed.
I would be concerned about the no insurance part. As far as not being licensed, when you hire a roofer, there might be eight guys on your roof and not one of them is licensed.
That is true Rob...but I bet the company they work for IS licensed and has insurance if their employees get hurt on the job!
Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
I lost $1500 on a roofer. He was licensed, bonded and insured the first time I worked with him. But I didn't check all of his credentials the second time. He lost his license two months prior to me signing a contract with him for a roofing job and handing him money to get the materials to start the job. He and his buddy took off with the money and never came back. I went to file a claim against him with the Washington State Department of Labor and Industries. That's when I found out there was no current bond. It could have been a lot worse if he and his buddy had had an injury on the job or feigned an injury on the job. For some jobs, checking the credentials each and every time is important.
Real Estate Broker · MA · Member since 2013 · 361 posts · 297 votes
12y
No insurance? What could go wrong?
I don't hire unlicensed individuals/companies where a license is normally required. I require a current certificate of insurance naming my entity as additional insured from all trades.
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
12y
Nobody gets up in the morning and plans to fall off a roof , thats why they are called accidents ," Hey today sounds like a great day to drive my truck into a tree" Not too likely . Him or his buddy fall off the roof , they are going where the money is .
I agree with J on this. As a primarily paint and floors contractor, I always get asked for license bond agreement and insurance. I'd happily get those documents (though not required in my county), but that means my cost-to-do-business increases. That increase flows over to my pricing. After doing so, the pool of clients I have drastically decreases. As a contractor, we want investors to be successful so we could conduct more business. But we contractors also have to stay in business too.
Question for you J, is that would you hire an unlicensed plumber to do plumbing work? Also for HVAC and electrical?
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Ashton Astillero:
Question for you J, is that would you hire an unlicensed plumber to do plumbing work? Also for HVAC and electrical?
First, if the plumbing work required a permit, I wouldn't hire an unlicensed plumber, as they wouldn't be able to pull a permit (and I'll never try to get around pulling permits, as that's a liability risk I don't want to take)...
But, if we're talking about work that doesn't need to be permitted -- for example, replacing a trim kit on a faucet, replacing a toilet, etc. -- I'm happy to hire a handyman or a "plumber" who isn't licensed and/or isn't insured. There is very little a plumber could do to injuring himself or create a serious liability in terms of bodily injury to a homeowner or tenant (liability for property damage is a risk I'm often willing to take).
As for electrical and HVAC, I nearly always want to have someone licensed and insured, as the liability is MUCH higher. With electrical, there's a risk of the electrician injuring himself (electrocution) or killing an occupant (fire hazard from improper wiring). With HVAC, there isn't much risk to the technician, but an improperly installed gas furnace can leak carbon monoxide, which can kill an entire family while they sleep.
If there's a chance of the contractor getting hurt -- and more importantly, if there's a chance of a homeowner or tenant getting hurt -- I want to be as free as possible from the liability of hiring an unlicensed contractor and as confident as possible that if there is a lawsuit, the contractor has insurance to protect himself and me. Hiring an unlicensed/uninsured contractor makes for an easy argument of negligence against a rehabber -- that will pierce the corporate veil (i.e., your business won't protect you) and create bad-will from a judge and jury.
Real Estate Broker · Mount Olive, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 310 votes
12y
Welcome to BP.
J Scott said it all (usually he does).
Hiring an unlicensed, uninsured worker especially when safety is involved, will be a huge mistake. You must see the long term effects because in a short run, you could save some money, but if something goes wrong, you will lose a lot of money. Most people sue in millions.
Question for you J, is that would you hire an unlicensed plumber to do plumbing work? Also for HVAC and electrical?
First, if the plumbing work required a permit, I wouldn't hire an unlicensed plumber, as they wouldn't be able to pull a permit (and I'll never try to get around pulling permits, as that's a liability risk I don't want to take)...
But, if we're talking about work that doesn't need to be permitted -- for example, replacing a trim kit on a faucet, replacing a toilet, etc. -- I'm happy to hire a handyman or a "plumber" who isn't licensed and/or isn't insured. There is very little a plumber could do to injuring himself or create a serious liability in terms of bodily injury to a homeowner or tenant (liability for property damage is a risk I'm often willing to take).
As for electrical and HVAC, I nearly always want to have someone licensed and insured, as the liability is MUCH higher. With electrical, there's a risk of the electrician injuring himself (electrocution) or killing an occupant (fire hazard from improper wiring). With HVAC, there isn't much risk to the technician, but an improperly installed gas furnace can leak carbon monoxide, which can kill an entire family while they sleep.
If there's a chance of the contractor getting hurt -- and more importantly, if there's a chance of a homeowner or tenant getting hurt -- I want to be as free as possible from the liability of hiring an unlicensed contractor and as confident as possible that if there is a lawsuit, the contractor has insurance to protect himself and me. Hiring an unlicensed/uninsured contractor makes for an easy argument of negligence against a rehabber -- that will pierce the corporate veil (i.e., your business won't protect you) and create bad-will from a judge and jury.
Hiring an uninsured plumber is risky. I've done plumbing work myself and the work involves using a reciprocating saw and grinder, which can easily cut someone, not to mention the risk of getting stuck and injured in a crawlspace.