Investor · lehigh valley, PA · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 23 votes
O boy here goes try to make a long story short
Had first, last and security upfront.
Couple moved in july, he was arrested in september.
Rent was due September 1st never paid still as of today. I was forced to use their last month rent on 9/30 by them since they were so far behind and I needed to pay the mortgage. They are telling me I should have about $400 on october 10th and will be caught up by end of October, he started a new job (Also repaying back last month that I used, september rent even thought it was not intended for that, its not their last month)
He seems very controlling and was cursing me out on the phone f this and f that. I will bring my lawyer and sue you because your place is not up to code (1 thing they caused, wired fan wrong idk why) and that I am not allowed to step foot on " his house" without 24hrs notice. ( read the lease I can), and legally he said he has 5 days to pay the rent, anyways I am trying to resolve the issue with them but seems he is always looking to start more trouble.
So not sure if I should charge them late fees for september rent since I really used the last month rent but its not intended for that or even now if I can charge them September fees since i used last month rent temporarily.
Would you charge them fees for September and October or how would you handle this?
Afraid if i charge them late fees about $250 it will be just to much to handle for them and really screw me over, damage the place, and make me evict them.
If it was a better time of the year I defiantly would have evicted them but with winter coming and oil heat the place is going to sit a couple of months and i will need to pay to heat it, plus not to mention the $400 in court fees I would need to pay. I am willing to ride it another week to see if they give me any money but if not I will file for eviction.
How would you handle this, this has been 1 of my worse experiences as a landlord in 4 years and not really sure how to handle this.....
Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 268 posts · 162 votes
11y
I would have started the eviction last month. Say little. Do not try to "be right". Complete the eviction and get them out asap. People who have just been arrested are not the most friendly. Avoid talking or communicating with them. Just get them out, politely but professionally. ANYTHING he says is bluster to con you into another free month of rent. Do not talk to them, just evict them.
Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 268 posts · 162 votes
11y
I would have started the eviction last month. Say little. Do not try to "be right". Complete the eviction and get them out asap. People who have just been arrested are not the most friendly. Avoid talking or communicating with them. Just get them out, politely but professionally. ANYTHING he says is bluster to con you into another free month of rent. Do not talk to them, just evict them.
Lender · Denver, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 597 votes
11y
Hard on the problem not on the tenant. Meaning be cordial to them but explain you can not have a property/tenant that is not paying. I used to hate these type of issues because it really creates a scenario where you have to look in the mirror and figure out how you are going to handle it. But now I just follow the same procedure regardless of the tenant or situation.
Keep eviction process going as that is your procedure when you do not receive rent. Already a pretty difficult tenant for you why try to keep them in?
or there is the magical and ever so effect cash for keys - you will give them x dollars if out by z date and the property is in good condition. Even if negotiating this arrangement the eviction process does not stop.
I would not recommend handling an eviction on your own, especially in this situation too much recourse for the minimal difference in price.
Lastly - if you don't collect the late fees now, when will you?
Riverside, CA · Member since 2010 · 92 posts · 28 votes
11y
If these were my tenants and I had them on a rental agreement and If the location of the property can bring better quality tenants I would tell them I am sorry this was a mistake and it will not work out. I will then serve a 30 day notice terminating the tenancy. The piece of mind this will give me far exceeds the potential loss of rents in my world.
Couple moved in july, he was arrested in september.
Rent was due September 1st never paid still as of today. I was forced to use their last month rent on 9/30 by them since they were so far behind and I needed to pay the mortgage. They are telling me I should have about $400 on october 10th and will be caught up by end of October, he started a new job (Also repaying back last month that I used, september rent even thought it was not intended for that, its not their last month)
He seems very controlling and was cursing me out on the phone f this and f that. I will bring my lawyer and sue you because your place is not up to code (1 thing they caused, wired fan wrong idk why) and that I am not allowed to step foot on " his house" without 24hrs notice. ( read the lease I can), and legally he said he has 5 days to pay the rent, anyways I am trying to resolve the issue with them but seems he is always looking to start more trouble.
So not sure if I should charge them late fees for september rent since I really used the last month rent but its not intended for that or even now if I can charge them September fees since i used last month rent temporarily.
Would you charge them fees for September and October or how would you handle this?
Afraid if i charge them late fees about $250 it will be just to much to handle for them and really screw me over, damage the place, and make me evict them.
If it was a better time of the year I defiantly would have evicted them but with winter coming and oil heat the place is going to sit a couple of months and i will need to pay to heat it, plus not to mention the $400 in court fees I would need to pay. I am willing to ride it another week to see if they give me any money but if not I will file for eviction.
How would you handle this, this has been 1 of my worse experiences as a landlord in 4 years and not really sure how to handle this.....
Even if you didn't share with us that the tenant is "controlling and cursing"... as well as a law breaker and obviously a "rule breaker" by not complying with the terms of the rental agreement..... I would address the problem head on. Be polite, professional, firm, fair and swift!
Proceed with the eviction process immediately. I would never use last month's rent or the security deposit prematurely. You see, September wasn't really their last month, was it? You must have sufficient reserves to survive in the REI business. After you survive this ordeal, and you can, focus on building up your reserves and screening better for tenants.
This is what I would do:
1. Gather together the financial resources you need, even if it means selling something or taking out a loan.
2. Review the rental agreement and outline for yourself how many terms of the rental agreement he has violated.
3. If you haven't done so already, begin documenting every conversation and written communication you have had with the tenant.
4. You can enter the dwelling legally. Serve a "Notice to Enter" or whatever is required in your jurisdiction to inspect the property. Document what you find, in writing and with photos if possible.
5. Accept the fact that chances are you will never recoup the past due rent and you will never have a chance to recoup the late fees, especially if you never charge for them. What you really want at this juncture is for the tenant to vacate and leave the property without hassle and without damages. Then you will have a better chance of quickly turning the apartment and getting new tenants in. Don't fear the approaching holidays and winter... people need housing at all times of the year. Begin the eviction process by serving the "Pay Rent or Quit" notice, or whatever is required in your jurisdiction.
6. At the same time, try to get the tenant to move out on their own without damages. Present him with a form to sign by which he can give his notice to terminate tenancy by a certain date. Everything is negotiable. Offer an incentive. Let them break their lease without penalty if he cooperates. Provide 3mil thick large plastic bags, boxes, etc. to make their move easier. Let him know that it will be easier to find another place without a recent eviction on his record. If he leaves (as well as anyone else occupying the residence), you will not need to file the eviction. If he doesn't move, you will already be set to proceed.
7. I strongly advise you to take this to an attorney that specializes in landlord-tenant law considering the tenant has threatened you and that you may lack experience to do this yourself. When you file for the eviction with your attorney, you simply add the late fees to the lawsuit. Also, unless you told the tenant otherwise, do not consider that he paid September rent with the "last month rent" deposit money. At this point, he owes you two months rent and two late fees. The last month has not yet been determined until you have a final date set and documented.
Investor · lehigh valley, PA · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 23 votes
11y
I will wait till the 10th and if no money is givin like promised I will file for eviction.
If you do the math its going to sit for at least 1 or 2 months + court fees + oil heat is at least $2500 loss so 7 more days I think I can wait. I did call his employer and he did start his job yesterday.
Agent / Investor · Clearwater, FL · Member since 2014 · 573 posts · 281 votes
11y
@Jimmy S. - Even though you are trying to be nice and give them a few days, you still want to take action sooner rather than later. You want to give the impression you will take no #@%#% from them and you mean business. Otherwise you are just setting the precedence that late rent is acceptable.
I say this out of experience, there are people who we call "professional tenants". They know all of the loopholes they have as tenants, they know how long they can get away without paying rent, and don't really care about their credit. If evicted they will just go apply for another place owned by an individual in hopes that person does not pull credit, etc. If they ask for leniency and agree to pay by certain days, they can sometimes get away with 2-3 months of free rent before having to move. Unfortunately too many states still have rules that favor the tenants and scumbags know how to use these rules to their advantage.
And don't ever waive late fees, you do it once to be nice they will ask for it again and again when they are late. It might be tough sometimes but you have to treat this like a business and stick to your guns.
Investor · Hampton Roads, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 418 votes
11y
Start the eviction and sleep peacefully through the winter knowing you will have to pay the mortgage and heating fuel costs.. It's better then dealing with what you have now....
Rental Property Investor · South FL · Member since 2014 · 92 posts · 16 votes
11y
Nate M.
Evict them and have a certified letter written by your lawyer stating that they are being evicted and any damages they cause to your property on purpose they will be held responsible for and all communications go through your attorney from now on.
Your lawyer will phrase it so it's all legal and will hold up in court in the meantime have no contact with them at all not even over the phone let your lawyer handle all communication. So if they're professional tenants you won't get tripped up or conned any further.
Rental Property Investor · South FL · Member since 2014 · 92 posts · 16 votes
11y
Nate M.
Evict them and have a certified letter written by your lawyer stating that they are being evicted and any damages they cause to your property on purpose they will be held responsible for and all communications go through your attorney from now on.
Your lawyer will phrase it so it's all legal and will hold up in court in the meantime have no contact with them at all not even over the phone let your lawyer handle all communication. So if they're professional tenants you won't get tripped up or conned any further. Make sure it's a real estate attorney who knows what they're doing just any lawyer won't so.
Investor · lehigh valley, PA · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 23 votes
11y
o boy update everyone was right I should of evicted them asap. I cant get ahold of my attorney on thursday or friday.. what the heck. So hopefully monday I can file.
anyways they owe me $2200 and all the damages and court costs. Now tenants said heat does not work, I fixed it. NOW there's a major water clog in the house. Main sewer stacked they clogged. Water is all over the floor, toilets wont flush right , showers and sinks dont drain really and it smells bad
I feel like not fixing this because they owe me so much money and just want them gone. Legally do I have to fix it? What if I dont? Let them pay for it and take it off the rent or what they owe me. Plus they ran out of oil and have no heat or hot water.. Why would they want to stay.
o boy update everyone was right I should of evicted them asap. I cant get ahold of my attorney on thursday or friday.. what the heck. So hopefully monday I can file.
anyways they owe me $2200 and all the damages and court costs. Now tenants said heat does not work, I fixed it. NOW there's a major water clog in the house. Main sewer stacked they clogged. Water is all over the floor, toilets wont flush right , showers and sinks dont drain really and it smells bad
I feel like not fixing this because they owe me so much money and just want them gone. Legally do I have to fix it? What if I dont? Let them pay for it and take it off the rent or what they owe me. Plus they ran out of oil and have no heat or hot water.. Why would they want to stay.
Any advice?
Legally you have to fix it ... it's a health issue. Besides, the longer the water sits and leaks, the more damage to your property.
Here the tenant could demand you put them up in other accommodations until it is fixed as it is a health issue.
I would get a plumber in there ASAP to determine if the clog is accidental, negligence or intentional. I would also advise the tenant that they are responsible for the cost to repair all damages caused by their actions.
You need to get an attorney started on the eviction now! It sounds like these folks may know what they are doing and you are about to go for a very, very bumpy and expensive ride.
SFR Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 604 posts · 243 votes
11y
you can't not fix something that could be a health issue because they are in the eviction process, that could come back to haunt you.
"You" don't make a decision to pay a certain months rent with the deposit, etc,,,,go by your agreement, if they paid first, last and security,,,then when if they are late on the second months payment, file for eviction, they will be credited by the courts for last month and security deposit, but they are still late with the second months payment
I am very friendly to my tenants, but I explain when they move in, that this is business, and I have mortgages to pay, so if they aren't paying rent I will file for eviction,,,
Landlord · Syracuse, NY · Member since 2011 · 120 posts · 96 votes
11y
Nate M. You didn't use last month's rent for September; they owe you rent monthly and the last month is to pay the LAST month which is when they either get thrown out or give you 30 days notice.
As for the clog, it depends on your lease but you need a clause in your lease stating that the tenant is responsible for fixing items caused by the tenant (ie clogs). If they are responsible for utilities and haven't paid the oil bill, of course there's no heat. But it's October they can survive without it for now (I do at my house).
Investor · lehigh valley, PA · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 23 votes
11y
update
filed court paperwork, waiting for hearing.
In the mean time, had roto rooter and a plumber out, main stack is fine and toilet is fine. Shower drains slow but is packed with hair and sink is still very clogged and does not drain at all yet. Its been 6 days they cant use the sink. Main problem is that its an old house and they are lead drain pipes and most plumbers do not want to touch it because pipes will break.
Whos responsibility is it for clogged sink and tub, not my fault they clogged it with hair and food. I am till trying to get a plumber out but they all want me to sign a disclosure saying if it breaks it not their fault and cant be held responsible. I don't to get a bill for a $1000+ or even $2,000 + if they need to replace the drains.
What would you do? Court hearing is coming up and they are threatening me that its not up the code but they will not leave the property. They broke the lease in so many ways, not to mention the oil tank now is on rock bottom, no heat, no hot water and ill need to pay to have it restarted once they are gone. I told them they can leave and wont be penalized for breaking the lease (they still owe me $2200ish for rent + late fees and water/sewer they never paid).
If that property still has lead or galvanized drain lines, I'd be planning and budgeting to replace them all. Once they start constricting due to deterioration of the internal wall of the pipe, your plumber visits will continuously increase.
You will find fewer and fewer plumbers who know how to work with lead piping ... and probably none of them will want to repair a wipe joint ... molten lead solder is just not a healthy thing. We took a bunch of lead drain lines it out of an old building a couple of years ago, many of the pipes were down to 25% of their original internal diameter at one or more joints.
Investor · lehigh valley, PA · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 23 votes
11y
update
plumber said it was from grease or lard going down the sink which clogged the drain. They suggest replacing the pipes which I will have to do but really want them gone before I fix it. Is it landlord or tenant responsibility for fixing the clogged sink? Worked fine when they moved in.
Its been 7 days and its still clogged and im getting estimates and they are threatening that they have rights and are calling code department and department of health, however they have been living there 6 weeks rent free and owe me more then $2500. They still refuse to leave unless I give them back there security deposit. Can I get into trouble for not fixing it when I did not clog it and in the lease it says use care when using plumbing. Dumping geese down the sink is not care. I am making efforts to get it fixed but I want to get a few estimates before spending $1000.
Investor · lehigh valley, PA · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 23 votes
11y
they also stated that they have been making payments in an escrow account which they never told me about until a few days ago. However they cant even put oil in the tank to have heat and hot water. I find this hard to believe. Dont they need to take me to court or something to put money into an escrow account?
plumber said it was from grease or lard going down the sink which clogged the drain. They suggest replacing the pipes which I will have to do but really want them gone before I fix it. Is it landlord or tenant responsibility for fixing the clogged sink? Worked fine when they moved in.
Its been 7 days and its still clogged and im getting estimates and they are threatening that they have rights and are calling code department and department of health, however they have been living there 6 weeks rent free and owe me more then $2500. They still refuse to leave unless I give them back there security deposit. Can I get into trouble for not fixing it when I did not clog it and in the lease it says use care when using plumbing. Dumping geese down the sink is not care. I am making efforts to get it fixed but I want to get a few estimates before spending $1000.
Proceed with the eviction. Monitor the condition of the property. Document everything and have a witness with you during all interfaces with the tenant. Make sure your offer to let them break the lease without penalty was in writing. Keep all communications in writing. Make sure you are making a good faith effort to maintain a habitable residence. Do what you need to do to ensure the plumbing is working. Have the professional plumber attest to the condition of the plumbing and what he pulls out that may be attributing to the clog. Don't worry about the Department of Health. The residence is still habitable if one toilet and one sink is working. Tenant rights come with tenant responsibilities. Number one tenant responsibility is to pay rent/utilities on time and number two is to take care of the property and number three is to follow all other rules of the rental agreement. One-two-three strikes... they are out!
plumber said it was from grease or lard going down the sink which clogged the drain. They suggest replacing the pipes which I will have to do but really want them gone before I fix it. Is it landlord or tenant responsibility for fixing the clogged sink? Worked fine when they moved in.
Its been 7 days and its still clogged and im getting estimates and they are threatening that they have rights and are calling code department and department of health, however they have been living there 6 weeks rent free and owe me more then $2500. They still refuse to leave unless I give them back there security deposit. Can I get into trouble for not fixing it when I did not clog it and in the lease it says use care when using plumbing. Dumping geese down the sink is not care. I am making efforts to get it fixed but I want to get a few estimates before spending $1000.
Proceed with the eviction. Monitor the condition of the property. Document everything and have a witness with you during all interfaces with the tenant. Make sure your offer to let them break the lease without penalty was in writing. Keep all communications in writing. Make sure you are making a good faith effort to maintain a habitable residence. Do what you need to do to ensure the plumbing is working. Have the professional plumber attest to the condition of the plumbing and what he pulls out that may be attributing to the clog. Don't worry about the Department of Health. The residence is still habitable if one toilet and one sink is working. Tenant rights come with tenant responsibilities. Number one tenant responsibility is to pay rent/utilities on time and number two is to take care of the property and number three is to follow all other rules of the rental agreement. One-two-three strikes... they are out!
Thanks alot of the advice and help
The only way they agree to leave if I give them their security deposit back first, then they will leave, NO WAY. they did not pay rent for 2 months and they want me to give it back not to mention all the damage and violations of the lease.
Also found out they were evicted before and he was arrested for probation violation. He claims the prison wrongly convicted him and he is now suing the state prison LOL.
I gave them every change in the book more like 20 changes and enough is enough, I wish I would have filed for eviction 4 weeks ago. Now waiting for court date.
I never had anything like this to happen to me and when he started to threatening me to bring in the health depart and everyone else, zoning, police, codes, yes it did scare me. I am making efforts to get the sink fixed but really could care less if it takes another week with all the hell and stress they are putting me through. Yes its been 7 days and cant use the sink and starting to smell but I want to get estimates from different people. Its alot of money im going to be spending so I might be another 4 or 5 days till its fixed. They also refuse to leave or put oil in the tank for heat and hot water. I almost feel like putting pictures on here to show everyone what the house looks like.
Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
11y
@Jimmy S. You said..."Also found out they were evicted before and he was arrested for probation violation. He claims the prison wrongly convicted him and he is now suing the state prison LOL."
Nate, I am so sorry this is happening to you. This is why establishing rental criteria and then doing thorough tenant screening is so important. Find out as much as you can now, so you can understand their M.O. and protect yourself. Do not engage with them. They are playing you. They probably sense your fear, just like a wild animal would, do not give them that satisfaction. Focus on the end game... stay within the law, watch your property, document, don't talk to them without a witness present. Follow your attorney's advice.... and please tell me you are working with an attorney and not trying to handle this on your own.
Investor · lehigh valley, PA · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 23 votes
11y
update
court hearing is 31st. attorney said 2 ways to play it and tenant agreed.
Give tenant security deposit back $1100 minus the water/sewer bill (around $150) and they will vacate the premiss on the 29th before the court date
or
take them to court spend $600 in attorney fees and court eviction paperwork and keep the $1100 but tenant can do alot more damage and will not be gone till November 15th - 25th. attorney said its a easy win and will get judgement but no money because they have none
so it comes down to $500 loss for getting my property back 2 or 3 weeks earlier and knowing they wont do any more damaged.
I am leaning towards giving security back and letting them win but they will not get a penny till attorney says its ok and they have vacated the property and did not cause any more damage, sucks but either way I lose