New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes
Ok so I was having this debate with a local landlord and I’d like to hear your opinion…. You charge $25 for your application fee. You show the house to a nice couple and they want to apply but they don’t speak, read or write English. They have an interpreter there to help them fill out the application and the interpreter would also be there to help them understand and sign your lease agreement if they’re granted the rental. And of course you don’t speak their language. Would you automatically disqualify them? If so, would you still take their $25 application fee knowing that they’re not going to get the rental? Let’s keep in mind that we’re all ETHICAL investors AND we don’t want to be sued for DISCRIMINATION.
Okay, a deaf person would be considered disabled. But you still can't discriminate against someone because they don't speak English if they have an interpreter.
Here is a case from the HUD website from 2013 for a Virginia company that had to pay a $82,500 settlement because they refused to rent to a Hispanic woman who didn't speak English.
The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in the rental of housing on the basis of national origin.
“Denying housing because a person does not speak English well violates the Fair Housing Act,” said John Trasviña, HUD Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. “This settlement reaffirms HUD’s commitment to combating discrimination against a person because of their national origin or the language they speak.”
@JScott: I have treated more than a few that were brought to the office or hospital from jail, in manacles accompanied by a deputy. All docs treat some people for whom they write off part or all of their care. Does that mean all landlords should be held to the same standard? Of course not.
So, why should they necessarily be held to the same standard as medical professionals when it comes to language?
Everyone has lost the point of the OP. Nobody is saying we shouldn't be hospitable or show charity to those that are non English speaking people.
The question concerned discrimination and the poster wanted to know if it is considered discrimination to not rent to someone that doesn't speak English. The answer is, it depends on the SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, and those are set out in the Federal and State Housing Laws.
Everyone has lost the point of the OP. Nobody is saying we shouldn't be hospitable or show charity to those that are non English speaking people.
The question concerned discrimination and the poster wanted to know if it is considered discrimination to not rent to someone that doesn't speak English. The answer is, it depends on the SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, and those are set out in the Federal and State Housing Laws.
AND how the courts have ruled on those laws. The OP stated the applicant came with an interpreter and completed an application and was going to be denied shelter because they did not speak english. That is clearly discrimination. I stated that twice on page one. I am flabbergasted that over 100 posts later we're discussing ways we can skirt around the law.
The applicant is not asking for "charity" or "hospitality". If you make those kind of ignorant statements when agreeing to rent to one of THEM you'd probably be in as much trouble as if you'd just denied them outright if it was documented.
Just out of curiosity as to thinking behind this type of behavior, what specific circumstances would allow you to deny shelter based on the applicant's english speaking ability (other than a small scale/roommate type situation)?
Yes, that is discrimination. Unfortunately, it happens all the time in real estate (ex. multifamily investors advertising only in Korean newspapers [New York] or hiring Spanish-only speaking staff who can only communicate with Spanish speaking prospective tenants). Unfortunately, for various reasons, and I don't see this disappearing any time soon.
We are unique as for 200 years we have been importing foreign language speakers and in essence creating more new citizens with their offspring. The Romans did essentially the samething but by force. It is not the English language that holds the country together, it is the combined mix of the American value system and the common currency we have that hold this country together. Turns out our American ideas translate to any language and the underlining resin hardener is the dollar.
Everyone can understand what the dollar means and what it represents. It is written in "Latin" right on our currency "E pluribus unum" Out of many one.
This partially why the Euro was created. To compete with our known proven united currency language system. The American currency language that ultimately ended up ruling the world in many if not all languages perhaps.
Everyone has lost the point of the OP. Nobody is saying we shouldn't be hospitable or show charity to those that are non English speaking people.
The question concerned discrimination and the poster wanted to know if it is considered discrimination to not rent to someone that doesn't speak English. The answer is, it depends on the SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, and those are set out in the Federal and State Housing Laws.
Very true, but we assumed long ago that the landlord was under compliance requirements, he doesn't meet the exceptions as most don't. And, yes under the law, as applicable, discrimination is illegal as to language, accommodations are required. :)
Yes, that is discrimination. Unfortunately, it happens all the time in real estate (ex. multifamily investors advertising only in Korean newspapers [New York] or hiring Spanish-only speaking staff who can only communicate with Spanish speaking prospective tenants). Unfortunately, for various reasons, and I don't see this disappearing any time soon.
I just checked the housing-for-rent listings on craigslist for one my farms. Two of the listings on the first page are in Spanish only. I had no idea advertising in anything other than English was against HUD regs. Which makes no sense in practice because Spanish and Chinese language newspaper classifieds are not in English. Does HUD actually require all housing ads to be in English? How do landlords who don't speak English deal with that and stay within the law?
Yes, that is discrimination. Unfortunately, it happens all the time in real estate (ex. multifamily investors advertising only in Korean newspapers [New York] or hiring Spanish-only speaking staff who can only communicate with Spanish speaking prospective tenants). Unfortunately, for various reasons, and I don't see this disappearing any time soon.
I just checked the housing-for-rent listings on craigslist for one my farms. Two of the listings on the first page are in Spanish only. I had no idea advertising in anything other than English was against HUD regs. Which makes no sense in practice because Spanish and Chinese language newspaper classifieds are not in English. Does HUD actually require all housing ads to be in English? How do landlords who don't speak English deal with that and stay within the law?
Can you require someone to learn English? I don't think so...
So, to answer your question...my guess is that they don't.
Just like the tax code, the law is not always black and white...most of it is gray. So, it's best to consult your attorney if you're working in an area where the law is gray so you can intelligently weigh the risks.
In an earlier post I suggested that we should have a law or amendment that requires English to be the official language of the country. It's not being political, or discriminatory. It's common sense. There are 6900 languages spoken in the world, with many of them having hundreds of different dialects. It is an impossible requirement to impose on business (and our school systems) that we have to be able to relate and do business with each one. The cost of such requirements are astronomical and put many small businesses out of business. We have lost touch with reality, in favor of political correctness, and it has to stop.
Karen, the countries that have official language are perhaps the most backwards, middle age thinking, zero womens rights, beheading as common place, countries on the planet.
Places of doom by design and especially for women. With only one exception, Israel, but they are dealing with issues as a result. Thanks, matt
Hi Cameron, I am a lawyer and spent many years as a class action civil rights attorney. I could spend a long time about how you could arrive at limited English proficiency as a Federally protected class under National Origin but suffice to say, if qualified, this couple would become my tenants. More important is as landlords we need to have knowledge not only of the Federal classes but the state and local protected classes. I believe DC now has 16 protected classes.
Karen, the countries that have official language are perhaps the most backwards, middle age thinking, zero womens rights, beheading as common place, countries on the planet.
Places of doom by design and especially for women. With only one exception, Israel, but they are dealing with issues as a result. Thanks, matt
Do we really need to have another conversation about the differences between correlation and causation?
You know, the countries that have the largest military budgets also tend to have the highest rates of obesity...if we cut our military budgets, will we all get thinner? :-)
You know, the countries that have the largest military budgets also tend to have the highest rates of obesity...should we cut our military budgets in order to get healthier? :-)
This is either the dumbest or best idea I've heard in a long time. There's just something so attractive about reducing military spending and waistlines at the same time.
Hi Cameron, I am a lawyer and spent many years as a class action civil rights attorney. I could spend a long time about how you could arrive at limited English proficiency as a Federally protected class under National Origin but suffice to say, if qualified, this couple would become my tenants. More important is as landlords we need to have knowledge not only of the Federal classes but the state and local protected classes. I believe DC now has 16 protected classes.
Best, Teresa
I'm clear now about how language is a protected class. But why keep it under National Origin. Why not just make language a protected class and call it that?
You know, the countries that have the largest military budgets also tend to have the highest rates of obesity...should we cut our military budgets in order to get healthier? :-)
This is either the dumbest or best idea I've heard in a long time. There's just something so attractive about reducing military spending and waistlines at the same time.
If you can figure out how to actually implement it, it would certainly be the best idea ever... :)
@Account Closed Inferring that I am "ignorant" or in some way prejudiced thinking I'm better than others (capitalizing THEM) is ridiculous. As to some of the circumstances that may EXEMPT people from some of the laws, they are:
The Fair Housing Act covers most housing. In some circumstances, the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members.
That is NOT the total extent of the laws governing housing, and as I've said in several posts, everyone needs to familiarize themselves with ALL the Federal and State housing laws and the effect they have on their SPECIFIC circumstances.
@Account Closed Inferring that anyone that posted is "ignorant" or in some way prejudiced (capitalizing THEM) you've missed the point, and are trying to turn this into something it's not. As to some of the circumstances that may EXEMPT people from some of the laws, they are:
The Fair Housing Act covers most housing. In some circumstances, the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members.
That is NOT the total extent of the laws governing housing, and as I've said in several posts, everyone needs to familiarize themselves with ALL the Federal and State housing laws and the effect they have on their SPECIFIC circumstances.
The reason to consult would be because you are ignorant of the laws. Look it up, it doesn't mean what you think it does.
Karen, the countries that have official language are perhaps the most backwards, middle age thinking, zero womens rights, beheading as common place, countries on the planet.
Places of doom by design and especially for women. With only one exception, Israel, but they are dealing with issues as a result. Thanks, matt
Matt:
You are talking though your hat!
Canada has two official languages; Belgium and Norway have three; Switzerland has four. Beheadings do not occur in any of these countries; in fact capital punishment has been abolished in all four. On the matter of equality and quality of life for women, all four have been ranked ahead of the U.S.A. by UN, the OECD, and a 2011 statistical study conducted by Lauren Streib for the U.S.A. publication Newsweek.
@Account Closed Inferring that I am "ignorant" or in some way prejudiced thinking I'm better than others (capitalizing THEM) is ridiculous. As to some of the circumstances that may EXEMPT people from some of the laws, they are:
The Fair Housing Act covers most housing. In some circumstances, the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members.
That is NOT the total extent of the laws governing housing, and as I've said in several posts, everyone needs to familiarize themselves with ALL the Federal and State housing laws and the effect they have on their SPECIFIC circumstances.
Karen: I'm not sure what point you trying to make. The circumstances under which a landlord can legally discriminate based on national origin (and hence language) in rental housing are few. Even when property is exempt from certain Fair Housing because it's owner occupied, it's never exempt from Fair Housing advertising regs. What's the point of insisting on special circumstances here? We're talking about offering housing and accepting rental applications from applicants who have limited English. There's a lot to be learned. IMO studying up on the exemptions to Fair Housing is probably not the best use of the information in this thread.
@Account Closed The point I was trying to make was in addressing the original posters question asking if it was discrimination to not rent to someone because of a language barrier. I merely posted the link to Fair Housing, and a paragraph that shows the few exemptions. In EVERY post I have said everyone needs to familiarize themselves with the law, and how it may affect their SPECIFIC circumstances (NOT just the exemptions). I stand by that. And your comment "IMO studying up on the exemptions to Fair Housing is probably not the best use of the information in this thread."
Seriously?
I AM NOT TELLING ANYONE TO STUDY UP ON ON THE EXEMPTIONS TO FAIR HOUSING. IN FACT I AM TELLING THEM TO READ THE LAWS SO THAT THEY ARE NEVER IN A SITUATION WHERE THEY ARE DISCRIMINATING.
I wasn't addressing any regulations on advertising (that came in later in the posts by someone else) nor was I talking about filling out written forms. I was strictly addressing the original posters question on renting to someone SPEAKING a different language they didn't understand.
How so many of you have taken what I have posted and run with it and jumped to the conclusions you have totally baffles me. Read what is written and don't read into it with assumptions.
Karen, the countries that have official language are perhaps the most backwards, middle age thinking, zero womens rights, beheading as common place, countries on the planet.
Places of doom by design and especially for women. With only one exception, Israel, but they are dealing with issues as a result. Thanks, matt
Matt:
You are talking though your hat!
Canada has two official languages; Belgium and Norway have three; Switzerland has four. Beheadings do not occur in any of these countries; in fact capital punishment has been abolished in all four. On the matter of equality and quality of life for women, all four have been ranked ahead of the U.S.A. by UN, the OECD, and a 2011 statistical study conducted by Lauren Streib for the U.S.A. publication Newsweek.
But, do they recognize gay marriages? That's the real question.............
not that there's anything wrong with that :) I'm just more traditional, LOL
Amsterdam would make San Fran look like Little Rock. Love the Queen too. :)
not that there's anything wrong with that :) I'm just more traditional, LOL
Amsterdam would make San Fran look like Little Rock. Love the Queen too. :)
Out of context to Matt's rant, but to answer your question: Canada, Norway and Belgium recognise same-sex marriages. Switzerland introduced legislation last year, which I believe has been ratified, but I have not confirmed.