Ethics & Discrimination…. A question of Right vs Right!!
New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes
Ok so I was having this debate with a local landlord and I’d like to hear your opinion…. You charge $25 for your application fee. You show the house to a nice couple and they want to apply but they don’t speak, read or write English. They have an interpreter there to help them fill out the application and the interpreter would also be there to help them understand and sign your lease agreement if they’re granted the rental. And of course you don’t speak their language. Would you automatically disqualify them? If so, would you still take their $25 application fee knowing that they’re not going to get the rental? Let’s keep in mind that we’re all ETHICAL investors AND we don’t want to be sued for DISCRIMINATION.
Okay, a deaf person would be considered disabled. But you still can't discriminate against someone because they don't speak English if they have an interpreter.
Here is a case from the HUD website from 2013 for a Virginia company that had to pay a $82,500 settlement because they refused to rent to a Hispanic woman who didn't speak English.
The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in the rental of housing on the basis of national origin.
“Denying housing because a person does not speak English well violates the Fair Housing Act,” said John Trasviña, HUD Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. “This settlement reaffirms HUD’s commitment to combating discrimination against a person because of their national origin or the language they speak.”
The State of Wisconsin has in addition to the 7 protected classes, an additional five, of which one of them is "Ancestry". National origin, ancestry and languages are separate but often times are tangled together.
I'm sure the landlords that got the $82, 500 JUDGEMENT against them thought they were profit based.
You can't just ignore the parts of my post that don't fit your narrative...
To quote part of what I wrote above:
"Do I always operate my business that way? Of course not. Sometimes the government tells me what I can and can't do."
Again, we're talking about opinions. And my opinions don't always line up nicely with government rules and statutes. Does that mean I break the laws? Of course not. But, I can still disagree with them.
That was NOT directed at you J. Otherwise I would have quoted you. If anyone gets anything about me from my posts it should be that I am not shy.
Now to your claim of profitability I can say I have experience with renting to non english speakers two times. I do have higher end rentals so my experience may not be typical of ALL non english speaking renters. I found that people that bring interpreter s tended to be more timely for any appointments. I am also sure that several communications never reached me because the interpreter handled the situation without involving me. Sometimes my english speaking tenants chit chat a little more than I want but it's all about customer service. So my experience has been very positive with both english and non english speaking applicants & tenants and have not experienced a loss of profits by choosing to deal with both.
See my post above...
I liken this discussion to, "All other things being equal, who would I rather rent to -- someone willing to pay $1000 or someone willing to pay $1100?"
Someone I have difficulty communicating with will take more time, effort and risk, which will ultimately lower my profitability. With a limited number of units to rent, and all other things being equal, I will choose higher profitability over lower profitability every time (keeping in mind that time/stress/effort contribute to my definition of profitability).
Now, if someone who can't speak English is a better choice (i.e., more profitable choice) than any other candidates, I'm happy to rent to someone who doesn't speak English. But, my guess is that that's unlikely to be the case.
In other words, I discriminate against customers who are less profitable than others. If it makes me sound like a dick business-person, so be it. I have a feeling that if someone looked at how I conduct my life in general, they'd understand that being a dick isn't my life's goal...I don't typically get accused of being someone who takes and takes and doesn't give back... :-)
The housing business is probably different from other businesses you have run, I'm guessing. Housing is not a business left to the marketplace. It's a public health and welfare concern. They do not allow you to always put profitability first. The Feds have rules that will sometimes prohibit you from choosing the most profitable customer.
I consider myself very pro-tenant. I'm pro government regulation for housing. I thought I was clear on protected classes. So I'm surprised that I didn't understand how language and national origin are considered as one by the HUD. Even though I have no trouble with accommodations for disability, I'm challenged by the idea of forcing landlords to accept tenants with whom they cannot communicate.
I wasn't trying to make you look bad, I was just laying the cards on the table, if all other things being equal, that my applicants are equally qualified, I'd choose that path of least resistance too, there is nothing wrong with that, however, there is an issue when that deficient applicant is the only applicant or applied before another applicant.
I've got experience in "charity", non-profit and public housing, none operate without revenue considerations or aim to run inefficiently or to lose money, even public housing has a zero based budgeting goal to pay for it's own operations.
In reality, it's the luck of the draw as to who will be your next applicant, you get what is dealt to you, unlike poker where you can fold, in leasing you have to play the hand you get. How smoothly your operation runs is more about your management abilities, not your tenants. A professional, highly efficient operation must make contingencies to comply with the rules of the game, you can't change the rules to make your business more efficient. If you agree to sit at the table, you must accept the rules, following those rules will define the ethical player, playing under the same rules as everyone else at the table.
You could apply the same matters of running an efficient operation to having to take time out to oversee a ramp being set for wheelchair access, putting in grab bars in a shower or removing lower cabinet doors in making reasonable accommodations.
Is it a pain in the tail, sure it is, do you always have a choice and still remain in compliance? No. Making reasonable accommodations is part of the business. Making excuses to the contrary is really pointless, those are the rules of the game.
Besides, I have dealt with non-English speaking tenants, borrowers, homeowners and workers, it's not that big of a deal. It didn't disrupt my business, it didn't cost me any more other than a bit more time which I took from my non-productive time. The most difficult was a loan, communication was simply delayed until a daughter of the applicant was available, no big deal. Most issues are not time sensitive, collections are not on a minute by minute basis or even hour by hour. Not only that, but none of the non-English speaking personas I ever dealt with were a problem, the problems were those who spoke English, they might be assumed to be the more likely who think they are aware of their tenant or other rights and they will consume much more of your time than someone who can't read laws or regulations, those folks are usually very easy to deal with as they know they are unaware of local rules, regulations or laws as opposed to the dinks that you get who think they know more about tenant law than the landlord does. So, in speaking as to efficiency in leasing, I'd not say dealing with a non-English speaking tenant is anymore inefficient as others who do speak English. The application process is pretty short compared to the term of a lease, I don't see any justification for the assumption of inefficiency. :)
If you read the HUD statement it said the applicant did not speak English well. If you have someone who contacts you, cannot speak any English, cannot relate they want to rent a unit, cannot relate any interest in setting up a showing, etc I don't believe that makes them a protected class.
is it unethical not to rent to foreign language speakers. Yes.
is it against the law not to rent to foreign language speakers. Yes
is it bad business to eliminate part of your tenant pool. Yes
in LA, if we discrimnated against foreigners we would have 50% vacany rate, residential and commercial.You better hope there are foreigners coming to your town if are you in this longterm as the opposite is not pretty.
thanks, Matt
Having read a few of the posts, there are some excellent points made to be as matter of fact as possible. There's a certain difference between state / federal law and business ethics. IMO, noone is wrong whether a landlord / PM chooses to go the extra mile or so in order to secure that tenant or if the landlord decided that its not worth it to put in that additional time and effort to secure that tenant. How one investor runs there business as long as its law abiding and ethically sound does not need to be an exact replica for every other investor/business owner. Its not going to happen....
However, technology today can alleviate most of the extensive work of yesteryear. Forget about the landlord / PM or tenant hiring someone to communicate for you. There are translation apps that are available on apple as well as android phones. A few freebies and others with a slight monthly fee(usually on apple). This being a simple and non-expensive fix for the most part, the landlord doesn't have many excuses in this case. On that note, if you as an investor/landlord learn that one of your properties are getting applications from non-english speaking individuals then its may be a good thing to try to learn another language. As a landlord / PM in todays world its coming to a norm to be bilingual and often times the tenant will learn words/terms from them as well.
The landlord likely had a few sleepless nights after turning them away and wanted to get a professional's opinion (being as though you two go way back) that has a good history with them, to try to clear his/her conscience. Its just one tenant today but maybe there are other non-english speaking applicants to follow(or not). They will need to make the decision to turn away one (means to turn away several, since word of mouth marketing is still the most effective) taking monies out of their/the owner's pocket. My coin.
Kudos,
Mary
@Bill Gulley ALL rentals are not covered by the Fair Housing Act. The question is, what are the specifics of the original post, as they weren't given, and the devil is in the details.
Everyone that rents units should familiarize themselves with the laws of Fair Housing in addition to all the State laws that may affect their properties.
RE: Federal Fair Housing
1.) What Housing Is Covered?
The Fair Housing Act covers most housing. In some circumstances, the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members.
As in my first response, I encourage anyone that is unsure of what the laws require, should consult an attorney knowledgeable in Fair Housing, etc., as the laws change continually.
As another poster mentioned above, there are many apps that can translate now days, making it easier to deal with these issues, and also the ability to translate typed documents online, so different languages doesn't have to be a barrier.
Personally I'd like to see a law passed making English our official language; and those going to school here, doing business, or working in America be required to know English, not vice versa. By having everyone speaking different languages, it does more to segregate our country than make us a "melting pot", we need a "common" language, and English should be it.
Those are thoughtful comments about business ethics. I have thought about this a lot. We know that self interest and the profit motive dictate that we put up from some stuff from tenants which we wouldn't take from a house guest. Irritating and unprofitable are not the same.
A $20 expense from a tenant I like won't bother me half as much as a $4 expense from a tenant I don't like. Even though I could never get prosecuted, how I respond is a business ethics issue.
I have to constantly talk to myself about what I think regarding tenants. I know landlords who have turned into really negative, unattractive people.
On the other hand, like @Roy N. said, when I can make myself be flexible I often find lucrative tenants and quality people I enjoy dealing with.
is it unethical not to rent to foreign language speakers. Yes.
is it against the law not to rent to foreign language speakers. Yes
is it bad business to eliminate part of your tenant pool. Yes
I don't think anyone here in this thread has disputed any of those things.
For reference, I'm a foreign language speaker, and I've never had any issue renting places.
@Bill Gulley ALL rentals are not covered by the Fair Housing Act. The question is, what are the specifics of the original post, as they weren't given, and the devil is in the details.
Everyone that rents units should familiarize themselves with the laws of Fair Housing in addition to all the State laws that may affect their properties.
RE: Federal Fair Housing
1.) What Housing Is Covered?
The Fair Housing Act covers most housing. In some circumstances, the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members.
As in my first response, I encourage anyone that is unsure of what the laws require, should consult an attorney knowledgeable in Fair Housing, etc., as the laws change continually.
As another poster mentioned above, there are many apps that can translate now days, making it easier to deal with these issues, and also the ability to translate typed documents online, so different languages doesn't have to be a barrier.
Personally I'd like to see a law passed making English our official language; and those going to school here, doing business, or working in America be required to know English, not vice versa. By having everyone speaking different languages, it does more to segregate our country than make us a "melting pot", we need a "common" language, and English should be it.
Karen: IMO this thread is about landlords in the business of owning and operating rental housing and the issue of national origin and language of tenant applicants as a protected class. Yes, there are exemptions to Fair Housing regs when owner occupants live in the property. Given that the bulk of rental housing in the US is non-owner occupied, I think this thread is best served by a discussion of compliance with (and challenges of) HUD and FHA regs and rulings. English as an official language is off topic, political and a thread killer.
We know that self interest and the profit motive dictate that we put up from some stuff from tenants which we wouldn't take from a house guest. Irritating and unprofitable are not the same.
I would give up financial profit in a heartbeat if it meant having an easier relationship with a tenant. For me, profitability is as much based on time/effort invested as it is just pure cash flow; earning $800 on a unit with nearly no time of mine invested is better than earning $1000 on the same unit having to deal with a tough tenant (my personal opinion).
I avoid irritation and grumpiness in this business by doing everything I can to deal with people who are easy to deal with. And good communication is one key to a good relationship.
Btw, for me, it's not about nationality or ethnicity. Most of my contractors and tenants aren't American and speak broken English. I moved from Atlanta because it wasn't very diverse, and I want my kids growing up around diversity -- different races, nationalities, languages, cultures, etc. I don't care if someone only knows 30 words of English...as long as they're the 30 words required to make for an easy tenancy, I'd happily rent to them.
But, when communication is too difficult, it's not worth it to me. I'd give up all my profits if it would make me happier...money can't replace happiness...
And, I mentioned that for those who actually read my comments. :)
Ok so I was having this debate with a local landlord and I’d like to hear your opinion…. You charge $25 for your application fee. You show the house to a nice couple and they want to apply but they don’t speak, read or write English. They have an interpreter there to help them fill out the application and the interpreter would also be there to help them understand and sign your lease agreement if they’re granted the rental. And of course you don’t speak their language. Would you automatically disqualify them? If so, would you still take their $25 application fee knowing that they’re not going to get the rental? Let’s keep in mind that we’re all ETHICAL investors AND we don’t want to be sued for DISCRIMINATION.
To answer your original question.... No, I would not automatically disqualify them. I would use the $25 application fee to process their application. I would work with them and their support system and with my support system (a myriad of resources available to me) to process their application, to enter into a rental agreement (if they met our minimum criteria to rent), and to maintain a successful tenancy. Note, we have written rental criteria... and being able to speak, read and write English is not part of our rental criteria.
So if someone who was deaf wanted to apply to your unit, and they had an interpreter (because you did not know sign language), would you refuse to rent to them as well?
I'm pretty sure that would qualify as a disability, which is protected from discrimination based on the specific disability. So, that would be illegal.
Deafness is indeed a qualified disability. You would need to make reasonable accommodations. The goal would be to achieve effective communication. This can be accomplished in a number of ways depending on the communication skills of the tenant and the communication skills of the landlord. Written communications and sign language being two common methods. Other reasonable accommodations to consider would be visual doorbells, visual smoke/CO detectors, and allowing hearing assistance animals.
@Bill Gulley ALL rentals are not covered by the Fair Housing Act. The question is, what are the specifics of the original post, as they weren't given, and the devil is in the details.
Everyone that rents units should familiarize themselves with the laws of Fair Housing in addition to all the State laws that may affect their properties.
RE: Federal Fair Housing
1.) What Housing Is Covered?
The Fair Housing Act covers most housing. In some circumstances, the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members.
As in my first response, I encourage anyone that is unsure of what the laws require, should consult an attorney knowledgeable in Fair Housing, etc., as the laws change continually.
As another poster mentioned above, there are many apps that can translate now days, making it easier to deal with these issues, and also the ability to translate typed documents online, so different languages doesn't have to be a barrier.
Personally I'd like to see a law passed making English our official language; and those going to school here, doing business, or working in America be required to know English, not vice versa. By having everyone speaking different languages, it does more to segregate our country than make us a "melting pot", we need a "common" language, and English should be it.
Karen: IMO this thread is about landlords in the business of owning and operating rental housing and the issue of national origin and language of tenant applicants as a protected class. Yes, there are exemptions to Fair Housing regs when owner occupants live in the property. Given that the bulk of rental housing in the US is non-owner occupied, I think this thread is best served by a discussion of compliance with (and challenges of) HUD and FHA regs and rulings. English as an official language is off topic, political and a thread killer.
>> K Marie, As I mentioned, we don't know what the specific situation the original poster was inquiring about was. The point I was making was that everyone should become familiar with the law, and consult an attorney if they're unsure of what they are required to do, which I think is good advice. As noted above, the law states "the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members." Therefore, each person needs to know exactly how the Federal law as well as their State laws effect their business.
A worry with expanding the HUD case to say it includes you must do accommodations for language is would you then have to have your materials translated for a non English speaking tenant? I am seeing a possible challenge to a 3-day notice to pay or quit that isn't in a language they can read.
Here is my take on this:
You would not be required to have written materials translated into any language other than the official languages of the jurisdiction in which the rental property is located. The legal documents must be in the language of the courts.
Would it be prudent for someone to employ a means to explain to the tenant the meaning of the written documents, in a language that can be readily understood by the tenant? Absolutely. The tenant may be able to do this by reaching out to their support system. Is it the landlord's responsibility to do so? Not necessarily. But I think the landlord would need to make a good faith effort to ensure interpretation of legal documents were made into the language of the tenant, if not by the tenant or by a third party, then by themselves.
From a risk management point of view, it may be riskier to have an English document translated (written) into another language and then have the translation proven to be faulty. Interpretations (spoken) are fleeting and there is no paper trail. Also, you would be facing another form of discrimination if you translated written materials for one language group and not another. Not to mention, there is no guarantee the tenant is literate in their native language. Written translations of usable quality can be very costly to produce. If so, it may make it cost prohibitive and fall outside of being reasonable to do so.
The reason for mentioning the children of our tenants and the rate at which they become proficient in English or French was to illustrate that non-English speaking tenants quite likely will not remain non-English speaking tenants.
I agree! Language acquisition research shows that languages are easier to learn at younger ages. The ideal window for language learning being ages 0 - 10. Enculturation studies show that recent immigrants may learn the language of the host country sooner if there are children in the home, especially as the children become teenagers. This is because the children are absorbing the language and culture of the new country at a fast pace and bring it home. Parents who do not keep up can lose their influence and the balance of power in the home can tip. This is additional motivation for the adults to learn the dominant language of their new home country. For landlords, this is significant, as the need for ongoing language support services thus declines over time and the ability to communicate effectively with our tenants increases.
I am perhaps not professional enough. I have rented to folks from Taiwan who did not speak english, I had one tenant who appeared to be from India who I did not understand, and on several ocasions rented to someone who spoke spanish but I was unable to understand them in English. It never occurred to me to not rent to them. In each of these situations I had a lot of fun attempting to communicate, but obviously had an interpreter at the beginning, in one case the child acted as interpreter when we had to enter to work on the sewer. I was never completely sure we had a full understanding, but we got the job done. I never had a non speaking person fail to pay rent. We did have some cultural issues but they were pretty easy to solve. It has been my experience that non english speaking folks are very insecure and afraid of the court system probably due to not understanding it. I am sure there are some who might use language to try to gain an advantage. In my case the employer always had someone who could translate, even if was via a phone call. Leases were either co signed by the employer, or read to them by the translator. I would ask questions to make sure they understood. I truly found it interesting and enjoyable. I hope my tenants did also.
I avoid irritation and grumpiness in this business by doing everything I can to deal with people who are easy to deal with. And good communication is one key to a good relationship.
Btw, for me, it's not about nationality or ethnicity.
I sure wasn't trying to start a fight. I agree with you, especially with the three above statements.
I'm not personally in a position to give up all my profits, but like you said, I will generally take somewhat less to make the relationship work smoothly. For example, I try to be $50 to $100/month under market and I waive late fees if my tenants are proactive about contacting me when they will be late. Also, I don't charge for clogged drains and that kind of stuff. I feel like I make back most of the money in high occupancy and low damage and other hassles. Plus, like you said, dealing with people who like me. My tenants are mainly college students and I fill most vacancies with referrals from current tenants so that I have an idea what kind of people they will be to deal with. I know I get a better grade of tenant than average in my area. Even so, I can't avoid some grumpiness, but I am working at it.
Related story:
When I went to Germany, being in the Army, I rented an apartment in a high rise and didn't speak German. There were no techie things and real estate terms were not in the handy translation book. An Army housing specialist came over for my contract and he translated. Lots of stories, it was a fun experience, had a great time with the manager. My 2bdr was pretty nice, modern and about 900 sq ft, the only way you could tell the kitchen from a bedroom was that there drain and water lines stubbed out in the wall. At least the toilets and sinks in the bathrooms were there. You had to furnish your own cabinets, sink, stove/oven!
When I was leaving, back stateside, I had everything moved out but left the base cabinets and sink, figured the next guy could use them and chance were good another American would be moving in. There was a new manager who had been there just a few months, he hit the roof.
Part of the process in leaving was having an Army housing specialist come out for termination of the lease. By that time, my German was fairly good including technical terms. The manager was demanding damages because the unit was not in the same condition as when I moved in. Not just about the cabinets, when I moved in the paint was something like 9 days old, he wanted the place repainted and would accept the unit with paint not being more than 9 days old!!! Absurd I thought.
Something else was going on too, I had not spoken German to either of these guys, the Army guy was cutting a deal with the manager to get a kickback from the damages he could collect!
At that point, I spoke German, their eyes almost popped out and chins dropped almost to the floor as they say. I told them I was reporting both of them, that I was done and left.
The Army housing guy had to show up with my commander, a LTC, who had the guy relieved of duty in minutes, no idea about the manager, but the manager had confessed to others, story being he thought the Army guy was suppose to get a commission.
I left without a hitch about the apartment.
So, I've been on the other side of the language barrier, those who have lived overseas on the "economy" will know what it's like not to be able to communicate. It can be frustrating.
So, when I meet others who aren't from here, I suppose I make a little more effort to communicate and exchange ideas or thoughts.
You might consider a little more humanity and being a better host as an American citizen. Overall the Europeans were excellent hosts while I traveled all over the area and there were more English speaking people over there (actually, kids are better educated in languages) but there were still times I suffered the communication bite.. Consider being a good host to foreigners. :)
You might consider a little more humanity and being a better host as an American citizen.
I lump my hosting work in with my charitable giving work -- both are very important, but neither has a place in my for-profit business.
But again, that's just me...others are welcome to run their businesses however they want...
I found this on CL. It had the Fair Housing emblem at the top. Notice the second bullet point:
3. national origin