To Evict or not?

To Evict or not?

Lawrenceburg, IN · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes

So, we've got this one tenant that has always been a thorn in our side. He always pays a week or two late, although he always pays the late fee so it's not a big deal. But, and this is the key part, is that every time we come over there, there's something new that's broken. It's been doorknobs, toilet seats, door frame, we even had a plumber out to snake his bath tub because he said it was draining slow. After the plumber snaked it he installed the stopper (since there wasn't one before) and we wanted to make sure that it wouldn't get blocked up again. Well we were over there the other day to replace all the batteries in the smoke detectors and noticed that it had been removed...

Besides being rough on the apartment, the other tenants have told me that he's yelled at them numerous times, slammed doors right before they could get to him, etc. Anyway, I could go on and on about this guy.

Last month his kids are by our driveway pulling rocks off the retaining walls and throwing them with other neighborhood kids. We call the cops. After the cops leave he goes absolutely wild texting me. Long and short is that as a retaliation he says he's going to call the health board about mold in his bathroom. I tell him 1) None of the other tenants have any mold issues, nor have they ever, it's his responsibility to vent the room and clean the walls. and 2) I'll have someone come out and inspect it. So I have a company come out and inspect, ask them to write me a recommendation on what to do. They basically agree with me that it needs to be vented when getting showers, and that it needs to be cleaned regularly. They also suggested sealing the paint with something like Kilz. So off I go to pickup the Kilz, and I ask the tenant either A) when is a good time for me to do it or B) If you want to do it then you can do it whenever you want, I'll drop the materials off tomorrow. He says he'll do it, it's no problem, I drop the stuff off and that's that. Or so I thought.

This month he was late as usual on the rent, told him he was coming up on the last days possible to pay it. He asked how much we were taking off for rent, and yes, he worded it that way. I said rent is what it is, that we didn't have an agreement to take anything off, however, I am willing to give him a gift card as a happy holidays/thank you. He tells me to keep my gift card, don't ask him to do **** again.

I pick up the rent and deposit it. My business partner then notices there is no late fee on there (It's only $20, we need to bump that up). I shoot him a text and say 'Hey, John noticed there wasn't a late fee on the rent, put it in the black box tomorrow by 6pm so he can pick it up."

He responds back "Sorry, that was for painting the bathroom."

Then a couple minutes later he says "You want to give me a three day notice go ahead and then you can give me an eviction notice and I'll see you in court"

So now we're kind of in a pickle. My business partner says if we let him slide this time we can possible set a negative precedent on the late fee. Plus then it makes it seem like we're push overs. From my limited time investing and being a land lord I feel like there's ways to be more suave about this. Plus I've read stories about tenants wrecking the place on their way out just to "get even." What are your thoughts on this?

Would you evict? Why or why not.  

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Real Estate Broker and Attorney · Durham, NC · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 73 votes
10y

Ahaa, you did not mention in your original post that this is a month to month tenant. Perfect scenario, just give him notice, you don't even have to waste your time and/or money to evict.

Nada

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  • Real Estate Broker · marietta, OH · Member since 2015 · 57 posts · 22 votes
    10y
    Absolutely I would go ahead with the the eviction. This guy thinks he has control over you and it should not be that way. I would send a 3 notice with late fee due and get the process started. He is a huge thorn in your side or you wouldn't be asking for advice. Get him out and get someone in there with a little more respect for your property. You should be billing him for all the broke items you keep repairing also if it is not normal wear and tear. I think you will be relieved once he is gone!
  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Based on the fact that he is challenging you to evict, not doing so will just make him bolder and encourage him to test you more going forward. It doesn't sound like you can save this relationship.

    You might try having a friendly sit down with him and having the "This is not working out" conversation. You might be able to convince him to move on his own in exchange for a full return of his deposit (or some other incentive). Kind of a like a cash-for-keys.

    But if that doesn't work and he is not willing to play ball (pay late fee) then it seems pretty clear cut.

  • Alex CraigBusiness Member
    Real Estate Professional · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Tomorrow morning, the first thing I would do tomorrow is file for eviction on this bozo.  As it was said in the thread, he is controlling you.  I would never give my tenants my cell phone # where they can text me.  You should be receiving maintenance request via email and you should do the work instead of leaving it to him.  It sounds like you need some very strict procedures that you do not want to waiver off.  This guy will always be a paint in your a$$ and your life will be less stressful without this bottom feeder.  He sounds like a perfect candidate to run off your other tenants and some day sue you.  Even though I do not recommend texting, at least you have a written copy of what went down.  BTW, never have conversations about disputes with your tenants, always get it in writing.  He said she said does not stand up in court.

  • Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 184 votes
    10y
    Evict! You can't accept rent unless all of it is there, including the late fees and send him the notice. You should do this every month, before the usual two weeks late payment is made. You need to put your firm foot down with this guy. Also, I would make sure to communicate a little via email or text, so you can have some physical evidence of his behavior. Evictions are not extremely expensive, and the outcome will be worth more than what you spend on it.
  • Lawrenceburg, IN · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Alex Craig:

    Tomorrow morning, the first thing I would do tomorrow is file for eviction on this bozo.  As it was said in the thread, he is controlling you.  I would never give my tenants my cell phone # where they can text me.  You should be receiving maintenance request via email and you should do the work instead of leaving it to him.  It sounds like you need some very strict procedures that you do not want to waiver off.  This guy will always be a paint in your a$$ and your life will be less stressful without this bottom feeder.  He sounds like a perfect candidate to run off your other tenants and some day sue you.  Even though I do not recommend texting, at least you have a written copy of what went down.  BTW, never have conversations about disputes with your tenants, always get it in writing.  He said she said does not stand up in court.

     The only reason my tenants have my number is that the vast majority of my tenants are elderly, and don't use email, so I gave all of the tenants my cell phone number.  I do agree with you, I'd much rather not.  But, I do have all of the text messages he's sent me as proof, and I do hope that would stand up in court.

    Also, I told him numerous times to write down any issues and put it in the black box, to date, he's never done that.  The other tenants have, and we take care of it right away. 

  • Lawrenceburg, IN · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Kyle Godbout:

    Evict! You can't accept rent unless all of it is there, including the late fees and send him the notice. You should do this every month, before the usual two weeks late payment is made. You need to put your firm foot down with this guy. Also, I would make sure to communicate a little via email or text, so you can have some physical evidence of his behavior. Evictions are not extremely expensive, and the outcome will be worth more than what you spend on it.

     Yes, I think I screwed up by not double checking and depositing the check without the late fee.  Now I'm pretty sure we've got to let him go.  But like others said, we can give him 30 days that we won't be renewing his month to month.  

  • Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 184 votes
    10y

    nice! I didn't realize he was on a month to month. This will be much easier for you. He may throw a fit, but the law is on your side. Good luck!

  • Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 37 posts · 54 votes
    10y

    Using the 80/20 rule,  80% of your problems are from 20% of your tenants.  Never let tenant damage things without charging them.  Make sure you document all repairs, inspections, any other conversations that are important. 

     You provide safe, clean, affordable housing for those who need it. If someone cannot follow the rules, evict them and give someone else a chance to appreciate the service you provide. Good luck.

  • Real Estate Broker and Attorney · Durham, NC · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 73 votes
    10y

    Hi there,

    He seems like a perfect candidate for eviction. There are two things that you would have to worry about though:

    1. I am not sure about the court precedent/law in Indiana, but in Ohio, if you, the landlord has set a precedent for always or very often accepting late rent without any kind of notice or actual eviction procedure - then some judges will actually tell you you cannot evict him based on late rent since you have set a precedent for accepting late rent in the past that this tenant has come to rely on. 

    2. Another issue is you accepted rent. In most states, if you accepted ANY portion of rent, you will generally have a very difficult time evicting the tenant. I can say with very high confidence that no judge will evict this tenant over $20.00. If you want to drop it this month, and then next month do not accept rent AT ALL, then post a three day notice the day after he is late you will have a better chance at getting him out. Goodluck!!

    Nada

  • Lawrenceburg, IN · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Nada Mohamed:

    Hi there,

    He seems like a perfect candidate for eviction. There are two things that you would have to worry about though:

    1. I am not sure about the court precedent/law in Indiana, but in Ohio, if you, the landlord has set a precedent for always or very often accepting late rent without any kind of notice or actual eviction procedure - then some judges will actually tell you you cannot evict him based on late rent since you have set a precedent for accepting late rent in the past that this tenant has come to rely on. 

    2. Another issue is you accepted rent. In most states, if you accepted ANY portion of rent, you will generally have a very difficult time evicting the tenant. I can say with very high confidence that no judge will evict this tenant over $20.00. If you want to drop it this month, and then next month do not accept rent AT ALL, then post a three day notice the day after he is late you will have a better chance at getting him out. Goodluck!!

    Nada

     Hi, yes this property is located in Ohio (Hamilton county).  

    As far as #2, what is the difference between waiting next month until he's late and giving the 3 day notice, and giving him a notice tomorrow that we'll not be renewing his month to month lease in 30 days?  

  • Real Estate Broker and Attorney · Durham, NC · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 73 votes
    10y

    Ahaa, you did not mention in your original post that this is a month to month tenant. Perfect scenario, just give him notice, you don't even have to waste your time and/or money to evict.

    Nada

  • Lawrenceburg, IN · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Nada Mohamed:

    Ahaa, you did not mention in your original post that this is a month to month tenant. Perfect scenario, just give him notice, you don't even have to waste your time and/or money to evict.

    Nada

     Just out of curiosity, is there a standard form?  Hamilton county provides standard forms for a lot of things here: https://www.courtclerk.org/mun_civil_forms.asp

    I don't see anything in particular for a notice to end month to month.  

  • Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 206 posts · 127 votes
    10y

    @Kevin Somers - Check the rental laws in Ohio.   In Indiana you are able to get a PDF of the rental laws. While I was reading them for some late night sleeping material I saw that they actually provide an example letter to send to a tenant stating that you will not continue with a month to month lease. 

  • Real Estate Broker and Attorney · Durham, NC · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 73 votes
    10y

    Hi Kevin, 

    Courts don't get involved with notice to tenants if it does not involve an actual eviction because that would be Contract law, whatever is stated in your tenancy contract will hold. This should be in writing of course. A simple letter stating that it is your intention to terminate the contract and that it will serve as your 30 day notice should be sufficient. Make sure to write the date in which they must be off the premises of the property. Certified with signature is best to make sure they received it (but they can also reject it). Call them too, leave a voice mail, and send it regular mail as well. That way you have covered all of your bases in giving enough notice to them to let them know that their tenancy will be terminated in 30 days.

    Nada

  • Investor · Woodbridge, VA · Member since 2015 · 476 posts · 197 votes
    10y

    Also I would conduct a inspection of the premises, bring along a 3rd party so no bs gets made up, and document the current condition of the unit with photos or videos. A guy with a temper like you described may decide to trash the place out of revenge, but as long as you have documentation you can show that it was done during a certain time period of his tenancy you should be able to get a judgment for any damages caused.  

  • Lender · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2009 · 825 posts · 486 votes
    10y

    I remember reading someone's post here on BP that this other landlord has a clause IN THE LEASE that states that any money collected from the tenant goes to pay for damages first, next to pay late fees and past rents and finally to pay current rent.

    In your case, when the tenant paid the rent late, the first dollars ($20 in your case) would go to pay the late fees thus leaving the tenant $20 short on current month's rent IF THAT CLAUSE IS IN THE LEASE.

    Not legal advice.

    My vote: evict.

    Keep reading landlording posts here on BP to get more tips.  I really like Eric Drenckhahn's Nononsense Landlord.

  • Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
    10y

    Before you commence with the eviction proceedings, you should immediately consult with a Landlord/Tenant lawyer in your jurisdiction with familiarity of Contract Law. There is more to the analysis than "Oh, what did the contract say"? You could potentially be liable under a theory of "quantum meruit" or "implied contract" depending on the terms of your lease. Consult with a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction for more information.

  • Durham, NC · Member since 2013 · 502 posts · 215 votes
    10y

    @Matthew Kreitzer, can you be more specific? Not being a lawyer myself, I fail to see why you press the need for legal council. 

  • Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Andreas W.:

    @Matthew Kreitzer, can you be more specific? Not being a lawyer myself, I fail to see why you press the need for legal council. 

     There is a theory in Contract Law known as "quantum meruit". It says that even when there isn't a written contract to something, it may be so fair to assume that such a contract exists to allow for recovery. Generally speaking; if a Landlord were to agree or intonate, in those jurisdictions where quantum meruit is allowed, either that there would be some compensation against rent for services rendered; or even if a reasonable person would believe that there would be compensation for services rendered, the landlord can be held liable under the theory.

    There are some defenses in contract against this; such things as merger clauses. However, many jurisdictions allow for these "merger clauses" to be overcome depending on the equity of the situation. Whether or not a merger clause can be overcome depends on the jurisdiction's rules on this area of law.

    How does this effect OP's case? I will not tell you, as I am forbidden to do so by the Rules of Ethics of his jurisdiction. It is up to OP to read between the lines and contact an attorney to explain that; the terms of the lease are not always the end all, be all, and someone can sue you for an implied contract based on equity.

  • Durham, NC · Member since 2013 · 502 posts · 215 votes
    10y

    @Matthew Kreitzer

    Are you positive that the OPs jurisdiction applies "quantum meruit"? That should be public knowledge and no rules or ethics of that jurisdiction should be able to forbid providing information to that question.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    In my experience if a tenant does work for you at your property, you should pay them for their services at fair market value. Most people would probably consider $20 fair compensation in this case. My advice is to tell him you will waive the $20 fee as payment for the bathroom painting as he requested. The reason I suggest that is that if this thing ends up in court, you don't need a dispute over payment for services - especially over $20.

     As others suggested you can choose to not renew his lease. The problem is if he refuses to move out, then you will need to evict him. He seems like a hot-head, so I would be ready for either damage or his refusal to leave.  

    Make sure you send notice that you are not renewing his lease in writing - I would try certified mail in addition to posting on his door. In most states you don't need to provide reason for not renewing a lease and the less you say the better. I would remind him to clean and leave the property in similar condition as move-in for his security deposit to be returned. If he says he is not leaving, remind him that hold-over past the last day would result in eviction proceedings, which will make it difficult for him to rent in the future- not good for him. You want to give him incentive to leave without trouble.

    I would call your lawyer and have them ready to serve notice to vacate if he is not gone on the last day of his lease. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. Good luck.

  • Lawrenceburg, IN · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Thanks for all of the information everyone.  This community is wonderful and I really appreciate it.  

    This is what we decided to do: First, I messaged him and said that this one time, and this one time only, it's acceptable that he was compensated $20 for his work and essentially didn't pay the late fee.  I also said that this has no bearing on any future rent, and any future rent will still require a late fee to be paid.  

    After talking to my business partner, we don't want a vacancy in Ohio in January.  We're planning on giving him the 30 day notice in February or March, haven't decided. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Westerville, OH · Member since 2015 · 13 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    nada ur spot on

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 109 posts · 41 votes
    10y

    Definitely don't evict him. If he is on month to month just don't renew his lease. He can't fight that. If you try to evict him a judge might say that since you accepted partial payment one time that is like giving him permission to keep making partial payments. If you try to evict him and he is willing to fight it all the way even if you end up winning he can then appeal it and it could take several months to get him out and you can be sure he wont pay any rent during those months.

  • Lockport , NY · Member since 2014 · 265 posts · 124 votes
    10y
    If it's a month to month lease, you don't need a reason, just give him the 30 day notice. Hell, give em 60 days to look more fair. But once you give him the notice, be prepared, he's done paying rent.
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