Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 11 votes
I have no idea how, but somehow my tenant moved her toilet half an inch. She either hit it somehow, or pushed it, or super hard plunged it, I'm not sure. But every time she flushed it, the water would rush/leak into the basement. I took a look and hired a plumber to reset it with a new wax ring and everything is ok. I thought perhaps she flushed something down the toilet but that wasn't the case.
She's been a good tenant, pays on time, no phone calls (other than this). She's hard on the house, stickers on walls, scratches on the paint, etc. She has another year left on a two year lease. My lease provides that if she causes the damage, she is responsible for fixing it. The bill came to $200. Which is obscene to reset a toilet but it is what it is. (Anyone know of a more reasonable plumber in Minneapolis and St. Paul Minnesota??)
My question is, is this something I should ask her to pay because she was the one that moved the toilet? Or do I suck it up because she's been a good tenant and this is part of doing business? Do I tell her that I could charge her, but decided not to?
Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
10y
My personal feeling is that if a tenant can move a toilet, the it wasn't screwed down properly. The only time I've seen movement in a toilet is when it's coming loose.
As for why you're all paying $200 for a plumber - don't any of you have a handyman on speed dial? 20-30 minute job max and a $3 wax ring.
Property Manager · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2016 · 5 posts · 0 votes
10y
Hello there Carl,
To answer your question, Business is business, friends are friends. You have to understand who is who. Even though this lady is nice and pays on time and, it's hard to find people like that, she's got her bad side which is going hard on the house. You cannot keep going at that rate, it'll cut into your profits big time.
Greenwood, IN · Member since 2013 · 346 posts · 93 votes
10y
Classic tenant behavior.
Hmm. It depends, if she is good, keeps the place clean and pays on time and hasn't been much troubleshoot. I would just eat it, and let her know best practices on handling the toilet:)
Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
10y
@Carl Petterson, I'm still trying to understand how the tenant was able to move the toilet - especially if it's bolted to the floor. Did the plumber who came to reset it say that anything appeared broken which could have been caused by kicking or excessive rocking of the toilet base? Did the tenant admit that she loosened the bolts or moved the toilet herself? It takes a lot of force to do this with some weight behind it - unless it was already loose or bolts were not properly securing the toilet base to the floor. I had a tenant do that once and had to replace the flange, wax ring and reset it - it was a tenant charge. BTW, $200 to have a licensed plumber come out to reset the toilet and replace the wax ring is CHEAP compared to what we pay out here in Cali!
If you charge her for it, be sure it was something she did that caused enough force that would not be considered normal wear and tear. If she is overweight or obese, a loose toilet base can result from the excessive weight on it and is a part of doing business and it needs to be repaired.
Stickers on walls and paint scratches is not that big a deal and a paint job can be deducted from her security deposit. In the future, I'd be careful about what repairs you allow your tenant to be in charge of and pay for. I hope you have something in your lease that states it must be performed by a licensed vendor and be pre-approved by you. The only thing I allow my tenants to do is change out the smoke detector battery and the indoor air filter.
If pay the repair yourself, just keep a record of what was done and if it happens again in the near future then definitely do a tenant charge because that would be in excess of normal wear and tear.
Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Ask the repairman to confirm if it was deterioration or malfunction versus actually damaged. If it was damaged, ask him to state it on the bill, then send it to the tenant for reimbursement. If he can't or won't confirm the damage, then you're likely paying the bill on your own.
Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
10y
My personal feeling is that if a tenant can move a toilet, the it wasn't screwed down properly. The only time I've seen movement in a toilet is when it's coming loose.
As for why you're all paying $200 for a plumber - don't any of you have a handyman on speed dial? 20-30 minute job max and a $3 wax ring.
Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 4 votes
10y
I've heard of a beefy tenant breaking up a bathtub, but never heard of one sliding the ol' commode an inch to the side. Were the bolts rusty, loose, or otherwise broken?
Software Developer · Vidor, TX · Member since 2015 · 922 posts · 639 votes
10y
New build here in texas and setting a toilet was 125. If the toilet was fine and not moved and leaking before, then she caused the damage. Maybe negotiate half and treat it as an outstanding fee and apply rent to it. If she doesn't pay 100 more then charge her late fees and post notice accordingly? Could possibly get rid of a tenant abusing your property. No one likes coming out of pocket for their mistakes but it happens.
Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 570 posts · 521 votes
10y
Bottom line is toilets can't move if properly installed. The waste pipe is connected to the toilet flange, the toilet flange is fastened to the sub-floor, the toilet is fastened to the toilet flange. For the toilet to move one of the connections failed due to an initial installation defect or rust/deterioration. Be happy the tenant notified you and you avoided a long-term leak.
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
10y
I would not charge her. She didn't stuff weird junk down the toilet. Somehow it malfunctioned, which I also agree shouldn't have been able to happen if it was bolted and sealed properly. No damage for a year, then a toilet problem that cost $200. I think you've got a great tenant there.
And I agree that stickers and scratches on the walls is nothing major. I also agree that you're really lucky she called you before there was major damage because of the water. You just really don't want tenants afraid to call you, or trying to fix things like that themselves because they're afraid to call you.
Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 3 votes
10y
I have installed and removed toilets. I know it is highly improbable to move a properly installed toilet without cracking the bowl. If the waste pipe moved the that would need to be secured, else the wax seal will break again. To reinstall a toilet should be well less than a hour for a plumber. $200.00 is excessive.
Investor · East Amherst, NY · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 18 votes
10y
if its an older home with cast iron soil pipe the soil pipe flange was leaded in and they can deteriate over time and fail.
How many hours did the plumber take to fix it, if it was 1 hour you paid to much. If it was a modern home utilizing PVC they shouldn't fail but I have had the Johnny bolts break through the PVC boosy flange.
As previously mentioned ask the plumber if it failed due to abuse or just deterioration and age.
Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
10y
I didn't take the time to read all the answers, so forgive possible redundancy: I don't think there's "one right answer" here. You might look at the "big picture" to assess her value as a tenant. If you decide NOT to charge her, you could send her a bill. If you use QB, enter the charge of $200, then enter a credit below it, explaining you're giving a "one time" credit againist "resident caused damage" as a thank you for her (whatever good trait you appreciate) over the past x months. I do this often for good tenants.
I think if you can verify with the plumber as to how it was moved that would be a good start. I would verify to see if it was something caused by negligence or if it truly was a busted bolt or old caulking and wax ring. I think it takes a lot to "move a toilet" however perhaps it was an older device with rusted mounting bolts?
If the plumber found evidence of tampering or negligence you have a pretty clear cut case to charge her any amount you see fit. I think that if it was just an older toilet that just broke apart over time you will just have to take it on as an expense.
I had something similar happen (minus the toilet) but a water line under the kitchen sink somehow rusted out and began to leak. Instead of the tenant letting it go they called me right away when they noticed it. I'd like to keep the rapport between the tenant and myself in good standing to avoid even more costly damages in the future and keep the good tenant. The cost of replacing her may not be worth the $200 to the budget, but at the end of the day its your call.
As for a plumber, I personally do not know one but my GC Sambe Souvannachack might. I'll PM you his info, and can see if he knows anyone good in your area.
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
10y
@Carl Petterson you stated you are not sure how you can move a toilet so how did you determine it is her fault? This is a matter of proving what she did. Toilets don't move unless they are not properly installed. They can work loose over time but again, not your tenants fault. All the people who say to charge - what is your reason you think this is her fault?
Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 11 votes
10y
Everyone - wow. Thanks for the comprehensive advice. The bolts were tight, but I was able to push it a hair. The plumber said the flange was fine, nothing was shoved in the toilet. I appreciate the thee camps of thoughts (she pays, we split, or I pay). I didn't even thing about splitting it.
I think I'm going to look big picture and pay this one, treating it as normal wear and tear. It's the only expense in a year. She pays early each month. No other calls. I'm glad she called. If it happens again, I'll have her pay according to the lease because she's doing something I can't figure out.
It took the plumber 15 minutes...but saved me two hours in traffic. So I need to take that into consideration. But seriously, where in school did they say to become a plumber and you can charge $150 an hour, plus travel time, and charge $10 for a $3 wax ring! haha thanks again everyone.
It took the plumber 15 minutes...but saved me two hours in traffic. So I need to take that into consideration. But seriously, where in school did they say to become a plumber and you can charge $150 an hour, plus travel time, and charge $10 for a $3 wax ring! haha thanks again everyone.
The same school your tenant wants to know where they said you can charge $X for renting your unit to her.
But seriously, where in school did they say to become a plumber and you can charge $150 an hour, plus travel time, and charge $10 for a $3 wax ring! haha thanks again everyone.
Many plumbers are master plumbers, not just some guy with a wrench, and to keep on top of most state certifications requires continuous education and testing. The GC certification in FL is so bad, a lot of people stopped being certified and just became jobbers or handymen.
But here's the thing, it's the wrong person for the wrong job. What you need to find is a local handyman, and in this economy - there are plenty of them.
The other problem with making the tenant liable next time - they won't call next time if they know or think they'll get smacked with a bill. They'll push the toilet back over the hole, but a towel round the bottom, and in 2-3 years you're replacing a floor. If you push stuff like this onto a tenant, you are causing yourself far more aggravation and cost in the long run, than just sucking up $200 occasionally.
Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 570 posts · 521 votes
10y
^^^ yep.
As a friend of mine who's a master plumber explained to me he gets those types of customers all the time who complain about him being great at what he does.
He tells them it's $200 for me to do this. I can do it in 15 minutes and it's $200. Or I can do it in 15 minutes then go sit in my truck for 45 minutes and it's still going to be $200, or you can hire somebody else who isn't as experienced, they can take 2 hours to do it and charge you $200.00.
In other words the job is going to cost you $200. You're paying me $50.00 for the time it will take me to do the work and it's $150.00 for the 25 years it took me to get to the point I can make it look this easy.
Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 11 votes
10y
@Mike F.@James DeRoestHey guys - my last line was a little bit of a joke given the scope of the project. There's no doubt that professionals with years of experience or education shouldn't be compensated for their experience. I hold several designations and understand the costs and efforts of experience, licensing, insurance, etc. I have no problem paying a reasonable rate for a reasonable project. However, resetting a toilet doesn't require a master plumber. I called local plumbing co. and explained I needed a toilet reset. Something like that doesn't require 20 years of experience. They sent an apprentice solo. Some may think $200 is reasonable or market rate, I don't, which is why I asked for references. I could be mistaken. I don't want the cheapest guy, but I don't want the guy that's the most expensive either... Thanks again for all the suggestions everyone!
Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y
$200 to reset a toilet is super crazy. It should have taken an hour or less.
And they charged you $200? Time to find a new plumber.
In terms of charging the tenant, I would say absolutely not. If you point to something to show that the tenant picked up the toilet and reset and messed it up. Or that they removed the bolts or something, then sure.
But based on your initial post, it doesn't look like anyone has any ideas how the toilet moved. So to blame a tenant to the point where you're saying its their fault and that they're responsible for it won't hold up in court in any way.
Unless you know how it moved, how in the world can you suggest you know that she was the one that caused it to move?
Just because she has stickers on the walls and has scratched some of the paint?
That won't hold up in any court I know of.
For all you know, it could have very well been something with the toilet.
Maybe the wax ring wasn't put on there correctly before? Or maybe there were two on there and something is leaking and it was leaking before?
Believe that it is more likely than likely that she may have done something is one thing. But charging them without any specific proof as to what she did to prove it was actually her fault is another.
I'm all for landlords sticking tenants with fees when they've earned them. But I dont' see a stick of evidence to suggest that you know for sure she did something to cause the toilet to move. The logic that the toilet wasn't like that when she moved in doesn't hold up.
Maybe the thing wasn't properly fastened when she moved in. There are a littany of reasons how a toilet could move that had nothing to do with the tenant doing something malicious.
So unless you can figure something out or unless the tenants cops to it, I think you have no choice but to eat it.