Replace Windows Or Seal Them Shut?

General Landlording & Rental Properties
10yFollow

Replace Windows Or Seal Them Shut?

Faisal Farnas
Investor 路 Saint Petersburg, FL 路 Member since 2012 路 55 posts 路 19 votes

Hello,

I closed on a property that I intend to rehab and rent out. SFH in a class B neighborhood and rent is $1000. It has 10 windows, and most of them are in decent condition expect that they don't open properly, or when they open they don't close fully. They have these old 1950's style manual cranks.

Before I bought it, I got a bid from my contractor for $800 for fixing all the windows. Once we got going on the rehab, we realized that they don't make parts for the window mechanism anymore (company went out of business). So I got one quote from a window guy, through my contractor, for replacing the windows with used one at around $400 a piece. Now I have some options:

1) Replace all 10 windows for ~$4000 which causes me to go over budget by around 50%!

2) Replace some and caulk and seal the remaining ones shut. In that case, which ones should I seal shut, bedroom, kitchen, living room?

3) Keep looking for a savvy handyman that can rig something up and restore the windows.

What do you guys recommend? Keep in mind that this is in Florida, and the house has central AC and ceiling fans in every room .

Thanks a lot for your help.

Faisal

0Reply
81 views

Most Popular Reply

David Dachtera
Rental Property Investor 路 Rockford, IL 路 Member since 2014 路 4k+ posts 路 2k+ votes
10y

Regardless where you're located, there may be fire and other code issues with sealing them. Talk to your local code enforcement people or building inspectors.

4Reply
See this reply in the discussion

26 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor 路 Rockford, IL 路 Member since 2014 路 4k+ posts 路 2k+ votes
    10y

    Regardless where you're located, there may be fire and other code issues with sealing them. Talk to your local code enforcement people or building inspectors.

    4Reply
  • Gary SiverPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber 路 Orange Park, FL 路 Member since 2014 路 180 posts 路 83 votes
    10y

    Do some research and you should be able to find the parts.  Most contractors wont spend the time to look for obsolete parts because they really wont be compensated for the time.  If you get new windows you should be able to get them installed for an average of $2500 for 10 windows.  I know it depends on the size of the windows for pricing but that is a good average.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor 路 Bushnell, FL 路 Member since 2016 路 456 posts 路 224 votes
    10y

    I believe Gary Siver is right about the average price for installed. Are you handy at all ? I would defiantly try to find the parts online, there are stores that deal with older parts all over the world. As for replacing them windows  are not hard to install yourself, most important thing is sizing them and keeping them plum ( level ) that way they open and close properly without binding . Watch a couple u tube videos, you'll see its not rocket science. I would measure the old windows after taking the trim off , then call a couple wholesale window places. I know there's a big manufacturer of windows  in Venice Fl. Anyway, get some quotes and decide . You may get lucky and find that your windows are a standard size, which will be a lot less. Remember though here in Florida you have stricter codes on windows  because of hurricanes. 

    Good luck and God Speed 

    0Reply
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host 路 Longmont, CO 路 Member since 2014 路 7k+ posts 路 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Faisal Farnas, I lived in a house where my husband's grandmother had caulked all the windows shut. It was nearly impossible to air out the house. Don't do this. 

    [email protected]Podcast Guest on Show #261
    BiggerPockets
    2Reply
  • Adrienne Bryson
    Flipper/Rehabber 路 High Point, NC 路 Member since 2016 路 276 posts 路 183 votes
    10y

    I don't think it's legal to seal bedroom windows...and if it is it certainly isn't safe.

    I would definitely just replace them.

    2Reply
  • Terry Martin-Back
    Property Manager 路 Gainesville, FL 路 Member since 2014 路 47 posts 路 20 votes
    10y

    To replace the windows in Florida, it has to be done by a licensed contractor and the windows have to be on the Florida approved list. Be aware, if the home is frame construction, you may have to make the bedroom windows larger for egress, (building official will advise when permit application is made). Don't cheap out and get a handyman to do this on the sly... tenants are fully aware of what some of the building codes are and will bust you out to Codes Enforcement when problems arise when they want to bail on their lease or decide to be late with the rent. On my cheat sheet, I call for $500 per window when figuring expenses on rehabs. After having sat on our local Codes Enforcement Board for four years, I've witnessed what happens when investors and home owners cheap out and get caught. You can find the parts for the older windows, check your local window/screen shops and do it yourself and don't seal the windows, it's against code... 

    2Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 路 13k+ posts 路 12k+ votes
    10y

    Casement, crank window mechanisms, are available at HD and other building stores, you may need to modify the mechanism opening to install. You can also find the older ones in Habitat restores if you have them or any type of used building supplies in your area. 

    You may also need to adjust the windows to get them to close properly as the hinge mechanism tend to sag and ware over time.

    0Reply
  • Levi T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor 路 Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC 路 Member since 2016 路 1k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David Dachtera:

    Regardless where you're located, there may be fire and other code issues with sealing them. Talk to your local code enforcement people or building inspectors.

     Agreed, this would be my concern as well. If you don't have the budget I would just leave them where is as is. You should shop that quote around with some other companies, you should be able to get windows in the $200 per window installed range, maybe better. We normally can get a single window for $200, just did 5 windows for $150'ish each.

    0Reply
  • Brian J Peterson
    North Riverside, IL 路 Member since 2015 路 77 posts 路 21 votes
    10y

    @Faisal Farnas

    Not sure about the accuracy of this website, but I'd make sure to get the windows up to code.. Having sealed windows presents a Fire Hazard situation, especially in bedrooms where it's required to have two exits, i.e Door and Window..

    https://landlordtenantlaws.wordpress.com/florida-s...

    0Reply
  • James DeRoest
    Investor 路 Century, FL 路 Member since 2015 路 950 posts 路 603 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Terry Martin-Back:

    To replace the windows in Florida, it has to be done by a licensed contractor and the windows have to be on the Florida approved list. Be aware, if the home is frame construction, you may have to make the bedroom windows larger for egress, (building official will advise when permit application is made). Don't cheap out and get a handyman to do this on the sly... tenants are fully aware of what some of the building codes are and will bust you out to Codes Enforcement when problems arise when they want to bail on their lease or decide to be late with the rent. On my cheat sheet, I call for $500 per window when figuring expenses on rehabs. After having sat on our local Codes Enforcement Board for four years, I've witnessed what happens when investors and home owners cheap out and get caught. You can find the parts for the older windows, check your local window/screen shops and do it yourself and don't seal the windows, it's against code... 

     I've never understood why this is such a rigid code in Florida.

    Why is it so bad for someone to pull out some old tatty 1930-1950s window, that is falling apart, and put in a new one - why should that need a permit? The new one will be immeasurably better than anything that was there.

    And again, why do we need these fabulously rated windows for hurricanes, when the ones coming out wouldn't stop a blade of grass?

    0Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor 路 Rockford, IL 路 Member since 2014 路 4k+ posts 路 2k+ votes
    10y

    @James DeRoest,

    Because even if the window is better, if it isn't installed properly it could actually pose a greater hazard.

    A lot of this type of legislation is lobbied for and/or sponsored by the insurance companies.

    1Reply
  • Victor Menasce
    Developer 路 Ottawa, Ontario 路 Member since 2014 路 212 posts 路 169 votes
    10y

    Great comments so far. The main driver for cost could be custom window sizes. You can replace the windows with double-hung windows instead of casement style (hand crank). They're less expensive. I have often set up a builder's account with manufacturers like Gentek and purchased the windows wholesale. These manufacturers don't sell retail.  

    The other consideration is the distance from the property line. Some fire codes also require that windows be fire-rated (more than double the price) if the distance to the property line is less than a specific measurement. Check that out too.

    Frankly a $4,000 cost over-run on a project is tiny in my world. If such a small cost will make or break a project, I would never consider a project with such a thin margin. You need fat margins to make money in real estate on a consistent basis.

    1Reply
  • Faisal Farnas
    OP
    Investor 路 Saint Petersburg, FL 路 Member since 2012 路 55 posts 路 19 votes
    10y

    Thank you all for the great info. This website and the knowledgeable people on it are saving my financial future! 

    I will get more quotes on replacement windows and try again to look for parts online. What I don't get is that the existing style windows don't allow for egress, not for adult human beings at least, so how is it OK by code to just fix them?? 

    0Reply
  • Faisal Farnas
    OP
    Investor 路 Saint Petersburg, FL 路 Member since 2012 路 55 posts 路 19 votes
    10y

    @victor $4000 is a thin margin for a fix and flip i agree, but for a rental that would mean years to get back the ROI... some of us are still small fish 馃悹 :)

    0Reply
  • Jassem A.
    Investor 路 PA 路 Member since 2013 路 1k+ posts 路 602 votes
    10y

    You can probably find the cranks online otherwise windows are only about 150 a window from most supply shops and I'm sure you can find someone to put them in for about 75 a window so you can probably save almost 2 grand or more right there.

    0Reply
  • Terry Martin-Back
    Property Manager 路 Gainesville, FL 路 Member since 2014 路 47 posts 路 20 votes
    10y

    Hurricane Andrew changed the face of Florida construction laws. We can not legislate people to bring their homes to the current building code, (2014 with 5 additions), that would be totally unfair to the average home owner. Florida has had, in the past, so many shoddy trades people doing work, installing shoddy materials and mechanical components to homes, which caused the insurance industry as well as local builders associations petition our state legislation to enforce the standard building code. I have often heard the phrase, "They sure don't build them like they used to".... Thank goodness they don't! 

    0Reply
  • Mario Brown
    Investor 路 Greenville, SC 路 Member since 2016 路 163 posts 路 108 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Gary Siver:

    Do some research and you should be able to find the parts.  Most contractors wont spend the time to look for obsolete parts because they really wont be compensated for the time.  If you get new windows you should be able to get them installed for an average of $2500 for 10 windows.  I know it depends on the size of the windows for pricing but that is a good average.

     Gary is spot on here, even if the contractor is dumb-honest and doesn't think of the potential labor variance (i.e. Charging you a lot more for the install of 10 windows opposed to 10 "handles") He is not going to typically be skillful enough to find obsolete and dis continued pieces.  Example: I am sure you would drive 45 minutes to the next town to find the right hardware to save $2500- $3500. I doubt a subcontractor who is not partnered in the job would.

    Past that, if you were selling or renting to your little sister what would you do? Because i plan on being in business and living in my community for several years I always err on the side of super safe homes. Worse case scenario if you just sealed the windows shut is a little too much to even think about. Warren Buffet.. "We can afford to lose money, but not a shred of reputation."

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor 路 Bushnell, FL 路 Member since 2016 路 456 posts 路 224 votes
    10y

    Terry Martin-Black has a world of knowledge it seems, I would definatly take his advice seeing how he sat on the code enforcement board. I didn't realize that In Florida you had to have licensed contractor to install Windows . It seems that besides getting the correct window for code, (which should be on the manufactures sticker) that as long as someone pulled a permit, that the inspector should be able to inspect the correct installment before the trim is put on and permit signed off. I'm not saying you can do this , I'm just venting a bit. Seems like the state has taken just about all rights of a homeowner away, because of hurricanes .. I lived through Charley in Punta Gorda and let me tell you, there was no rhyme or reason to which home or business gets destroyed. I saw a auto parts store that was only a year old, made of concrete block and steel get knocked to the ground and the place next to it that was maybe 10 yrs old sitting there without a scatch. Why ? I have no idea . One of my mobile homes was flattened and the one next to it that was a piece of crap only lost its screen room. So having a contractor install Windows when the have to pull permits just like a homeowner does not  make any sence. That's my 2 cents at least ..

    God speed 

    0Reply
  • Matt Geerts
    Investor 路 St. Thomas, Ontario 路 Member since 2015 路 692 posts 路 312 votes
    10y

    "B" neighborhood and 60 year old windows that are sealed shut don't go together. 

    Call more contractors and get a reasonable price on those windows. I think you might just have to accept that you should have known this going in (60 year old broken windows are a "replace" item) and your budget is busted.

    I hope you're okay with advice that isn't rosy.

    0Reply
  • Darren Budahn
    Investor 路 Milwaukee, WI 路 Member since 2014 路 811 posts 路 420 votes
    10y
    A good handyman should be able to modify this so you don't have to be looking for difficult/obsolete parts. Just weight the costs of modifying the Windows versus replacing them all.
    0Reply
  • Faisal Farnas
    OP
    Investor 路 Saint Petersburg, FL 路 Member since 2012 路 55 posts 路 19 votes
    10y

    Thanks for the input everybody, both the positive and negative :) 

    I am adding this answer for the benefit of anyone reading this in the future. I got a second quote on new windows and it came in at around $6000. The guys mentioned how they have to be energy star rated, double glazed with argon gas in between the two layers in order to comply with the regulations. They also mentioned something about lead paint testing being included in the price, which sounded like a scam.

    Then I searched for "window repair" on craiglist and found my savior! A guy that does only window repair for a living. He specializes in these old windows and he said he is one of the few people in Tampa Bay that does this! I was suspicious at the beginning but figured I would give it a shot. He quoted me $750 for fixing everything! When I told him about the obsolete parts, he said he drives to nearby towns to these places that buy old windows and sell them for parts, and he knows exactly which store to visit depending on the window type!

    Anyway, long story short, I now have fully functioning windows for one tenth the price of new ones!

    2Reply
  • Michael Haynes
    Investor 路 Tampa, FL 路 Member since 2016 路 679 posts 路 288 votes
    10y

    @Faisal Farnas, and all the other guys who gave such good information. Here in Florida they want you to be a licensed contractor to change the flapper valve on a toilet or do any repair or upgrade to a house on the inside and out. The government runs on fees, penalties and taxes and they are making the Rent a Husband and Handyman think twice about doing work on houses without a permit. You can't trim a tree here in Tampa without paying for a permit, having the inspector give you permission to trim and having him come back when the work is done. Ridiculous. Pay attention to what Terry Martin-Back said because he was the Code guy and he is the one who is going to show up and not look happy at your doing sheetrock or a roof repair or those windows etc. In Florida you are not allowed to seal up any window that does not work. If it is a door or a window or the AC etc. it has to be functional. Within the Obama Care legislation were 3300 new rules and one of them deals with the sale of older houses. The rule was setting up a new Department with new inspectors who would require you to upgrade everything in a house, before you sell, with the idea that you are contributing to Global Warming with the old stuff. That means new approved windows, doors, energy efficient AC/Heat, refrigerator and stove etc. This was supposed to start this year and I have not seen any signs of it except for the fact that it is now illegal for the rehab stores to sell used Water Heaters. The government says that there can be lead residues inside the old water heater that people may be exposed to and you cannot sell them without a stiff penalty. I used to buy a good, Low Boy Water Heater for $35 and install it myself in an hour. Now, you have to go to Home Depot and pay $600 and get a licensed contractor to pay a permit and have the nanny government inspector come by and approve the installation? This is the reason why I would think twice about buying one of the many old wooden houses here in Tampa to rehab for a rental or a flip or live in for a tear down later on. You used to be able to do a roof over or new shingle roof by yourself, if it was under 500 sq. feet. The trick was that most old houses here are around a thousand square feet and you were allowed to do one half this weekend and the other half next weekend without a permit. Now, the roofers are required by OSHA to wear hardhats, which I hate and gave up working on ships when they stopped us from drinking beer and had to wear hardhats etc. They have to pay a minimum wage to have one person stand around and be the "safety man" to watch for guys who get too close to the edge of the roof. They have to set up a rope fence around the work area and each man is supposed to have a safety belt attached to a central anchor on the roof. How do you do hot work on a flat asphalt roof while dragging a safety line through the asphalt? I know the Shields Roofing guy has paid tens of thousands in fines this last year for not having these things set up to do a JOB and he is on the City Council. The Government is starving for your Money and they want you to pay taxes to the max. Have you heard that they eliminated cash in Sweden and you are required to use your plastic credit/debit cards for everything in an effort to keep track of where you have money so they can get all the taxes possible? People are stashing their cash in microwaves etc. with banks charging negative interest rates. Would you pay a bank to hold your savings? Our Fed says that they may consider negative rates here if things don't get better. The idea is that if there is nowhere to keep your cash making any kind of interest with fixed income investments, that you will do what the builders are doing like crazy here in Tampa. You will take your cash and build something with it. The banks don't want to loan money because they are trading on the Markets with your cash and make thousands of percents every day off of trading. So, loans are hard to get and we think of doing Flips and fixing up houses to rent etc. The Government is Socialist and the direction they are headed in is Equality for All and not Freedom to do what you can to make a living and keep the profits for yourself. It is just going to get harder to squeeze out the profits from the Real Estate business, so, I am selling. I will keep one Residence paid off and one Rental to move into after I sell my Residence tax-free after the two years has gone by. Then I build or buy another to do this again for my retirement and trade Futures online for Daily Cash Flow. I am tired of all the work and fed up with the attitude of the Code Enforcement guys and the Police that show up when I have a problem with the tenants. There are thousands of new regulations being implemented by Obama to hog tie your effort to make a profit in any type of business that is not tax deferred or tax free by the tax rules. I learned that a long time ago. Any country in the world promotes tax deferred or tax free things that you can do and it is up to you to talk with an Accountant who knows what they are and head that way if you want to be in that business, like affordable HUD housing. Think about it. Do you do all that work and give the government 50% or more of your effort to end up with whats left over? They say that Tax considerations are not the first thing to consider when starting a business, but, I have always thought that was stupid. No one talks about taxes on BP. Maybe I have to pay for the Pro site?

    1Reply
  • Patrick L.
    Real Estate Investor 路 Saint Petersburg, FL 路 Member since 2013 路 1k+ posts 路 951 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Faisal Farnas:

    Thanks for the input everybody, both the positive and negative :) 

    I am adding this answer for the benefit of anyone reading this in the future. I got a second quote on new windows and it came in at around $6000. The guys mentioned how they have to be energy star rated, double glazed with argon gas in between the two layers in order to comply with the regulations. They also mentioned something about lead paint testing being included in the price, which sounded like a scam.

    Then I searched for "window repair" on craiglist and found my savior! A guy that does only window repair for a living. He specializes in these old windows and he said he is one of the few people in Tampa Bay that does this! I was suspicious at the beginning but figured I would give it a shot. He quoted me $750 for fixing everything! When I told him about the obsolete parts, he said he drives to nearby towns to these places that buy old windows and sell them for parts, and he knows exactly which store to visit depending on the window type!

    Anyway, long story short, I now have fully functioning windows for one tenth the price of new ones!

     Glad you got this resolved.   I was going to chime in and let you know that in the City of St Petersburg all windows must open and have screens to meet code.  Sealing them shut is a major fire hazard and would be incredibly reckless to do.   You can install regular windows, you do not need to buy fancy windows.  I like the double pane ones that Lowes sells, pretty solid value at under $150 per window.   Many contractors want to sell you fancy windows to make a larger margin but to meet code you just need to put up some type of shutters, for my rentals I use the wall anchors and cut and labeled 1/2" plywood option.   

    As for your old windows anyone that says they don't make parts is lying to you.   We've found parts to fix every type of window imaginable but if you entire house is full of questionable windows you will be better off in the long run upgrading to new windows as you will constantly have problems with them not sealing, not opening, etc.    A decent double pane window will be your best option long term.  

    0Reply
  • Jim Adrian
    Architect 路 Papillion, NE 路 Member since 2015 路 1k+ posts 路 840 votes
    10y

    Replace the windows. Would you seal the windows shut in your own house? I bet not.  Do not seal the windows shut as this will become a life safety issue and you will be held liable.   Windows need to be functional, allow fresh air, allow egress to name a few.  You should be allowed to replace "in kind" vs enlarging the openings but Florida has some crazy codes as well based on my past projects here.  

    0Reply
  • Jeremy Rodriguez
    Gibsonton, FL 路 Member since 2016 路 3 posts 路 1 vote
    10y
    Does the house have a central cooling system? I think sealing them shut in Florida without central cooling wouldn't be the best idea.
    0Reply
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.
Log InJoin for Free