Nightmare tenant, help!

Nightmare tenant, help!

Jupiter, FL · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 1 vote
Hey everyone, My husband and I had the tenant from hell in our single family home. We also hired a management company to manage the property. (Our first time as landlords, we outsourced to make sure we did everything right and was protected). Back in the spring we found out through our neighbors that tenants room mate was planning to move out 4-5 months early and tenant was worried she wouldn't be able to keep paying rent. A few weeks later tenant also advised management company that a sliding door locked itself while she was outside. management company sent out a company to fix. Repairman rebuilt the tracks. Tenant stated it wasn't locking properly after that. Repairman came back out and stated the whole frame needed replaced but no one would come out and do it. The management company was in the process of getting quotes (update the same door is still on and works and locks just fine!). The house also has a working alarm system. My husband and I payed the bill for the track rebuilt but were never notified of the additional complaints (until 2 weeks ago) So when the tenant was away someone broke into the house and stole two lap tops and a xbox. She didn't file a claim or a police report until weeks later, she didn't even notice. We never received a claim of door or window damages-none occurred. She later told our lawn guy the person that broke in was her ex workout partner. (The house is in an incredibly safe neighborhood as well). We all suspect it was staged so she could break the lease when her roommate moved out. Flash forward to the end of her lease, she started threatening law suites before she moved out that if her deposit was not returned in full she would be suing for any and everything. She did about 2k in damages to the house (chipped door frames, ink on walls, scraped up stair cases, etc). She also had a trampoline that killed a large patch of grass. We hired an attorney that advised giving back everything that could be a gray area so we agreed to give back everything minus the cost of resodding the area under the trampoline that is clearly stated in the lease. We also ask she sign a release that if we give her back her (undeserved) full deposit minus the small grass charge there will be no future law suites and everything could to put to rest. She agreed to these terms then the next day stated no deal she wants it ALL back as well or she is filing a law suit against the management company, us and our homeowners insurance for liable (nothing to do with her deposit). She's refused to take responsibility on ANYTHING. My husband and I and the management company are all beside ourself and our management company who has a portfolio of 400+ properties stated they have never dealt with anyone like this in all their experience. We do NOT want to give her back anymore because of how awful she is being and how much of the damages she caused we already absorbed. We also don't want to spend 10-20k in court fees over a cost to resodd a small area. but we don't want to let her get away with bullying/threatening everyone (which is exactly what she's been doing). It's clear she is desperate and after a money grab. Has anyone ever been through anything similar or have any advice? Thank you!!
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Specialist · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 111 posts · 95 votes
9y
First, get a new pm co--- NEVER NEVER rent to roommates... one always leaves. My policy is when roommates apply, each has to qualify income-wise independently. I would just ignore her. It's done. You did way more than the 'right thing'. Let her sue. No one died in the home, so try to keep perspective. This tenant has no money for attorneys or filing. She's all talk...illogical offensive behavior to distract you in the hopes to milk a few more dollars out of the deal. Does your lease state: "mandatory mediation vs court?" If not, you need a new pm co. I had a tenant in a $300,000 house (in an upscale neighborhood in Charlotte) that saw a garden snake whisk thru the backyard in summer and decided he would use BUSHKILL to completely remove every blade of grass in the formerly lush backyard. When he moved, i was left with bare tree trunks and 1/3 acre of red mud . He demanded his sec dep returned. His $2200 sec dep no where near covered new landscaping. My handyman and i made 4 trips to the dump to haul off the bags of trash this family left ( they started packing about 10am on the last day of their lease). Yep they sued me. I went to court and listened to them ramble and when it was my turn to speak all i said was "Your honor, please review Item 12 on our executed lease as we agreed on mediation vs court for any disputes." ""Yes Mrs Hoover i see that, thank you, this case is dismissed." Know your lease. Insure your pm has a landlord friendly lease. IF your lady tenant ever scraped up the money to file a complaint in court, highly doubtful, have LARGE 10 x 12 photos of the damage.Stand your ground. Send the PM co to deal with their tenant choice. PM Cos carry insurance to protect them if they make mistakes (which happens to all of us). I still don't understand why you are involved or thinking about court if you hired a PM Co. I would review the screening package results from the pm co... this can't be the first time the problem child tenant has misbehaved. It doesn't sound like you are holding this PM Co accountable. If they have 400 properties , i find it interesting they've never "seen this before" in all their years of experience. Tenants are basically crazy at all rental price points... there are just way MORE crazy ones when rents are $1100 and less. PM as a business is a high liability endeavor. The pm co has to have an attorney on retainer at all times ( even if it's just a " "LEGAL SHIELD." membership ) to advise them along the way so these issues are stopped before they snowball into an annoying nightmare. RE Professionals also have free access to a team of attorneys at their State Real Estate Commission. I know this EX-Tenant is annoying, but don't let this fruitcake age you prematurely. We are all on a learning curve, but this is a PM CO PROBLEM, not yours.
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  • Rental Property Investor · Yardley, PA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 561 votes
    9y

    She will not sue you, and if she does, you will win if you have documented well.

    Call her bluff.

  • Real Estate Agent · Garden City, NY · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Normally, you get their story in writing.

    Of course, keep records of all communication and try to get everything in writing.

    Tell them that you are going to get estimates of the repairs. Arrange for the repairs. Keep original receipts. If the tenant does not pay for the repairs themselves, then deduct them from the security deposit.

    If the security deposit doesn't cover everything, you'll have to go to small claims court.

  • Duluth, MN · Member since 2016 · 5 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Agree with Scott Weaner on this one, everything being said if she's in need of the deposit money that badly.. Would she really even be able to afford sueing you on and paying all the court fees? 

  • Upen PatelPro Member
    Lender · Nationwide Lender · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 814 votes
    9y

    @Amber Spence If what you are saying is documented then tell her that as she refused the deal you offered, the deal is off the table. She is now going to be held responsible for ALL the damages and legal fees.

    Be sure you have documentation: move-in/move-out forms, inspection reports, damage pictures, invoices to fix the damage, etc. Since you have a management company hopefully they have already done this.

    Some folks are just bully's and you need to smack them down.

    Good luck.

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Amber Spence   If the management company is beside themselves fire them.  I would not have spent a penny on a lawyer until she filed a lawsuit.  If she threatened it, I would have told her to tell her lawyer to add another cause of action for me putting it all over the internet that people should never rent to her because she is a scam arrest.

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Doesn't everyone think the management company should have been able to deal with this without a major problem?

  • Jupiter, FL · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 1 vote
    9y
    Thank you all for the quick response, we really appreciate it! She's not wanting to sue over the small part of the deposit we are keeping. She's using that as leverage to not sign the release as she's wanting to additionally sue for the 'break in' that occurred. She feels there is several thousand to be made there. (She's claiming extreme emotional distress etc). I agree she's bluffing but our PM has stated she is unlike anyone they've ever come across and the don't feel confident she is bluffing.
  • Investor · Buffalo Grove, IL · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 16 votes
    9y
    Amber I think the contents of the unit should be covered by her renter's insurance and are not legally your responsibility. It sounds like she's thinking the best defense is being offensive. If she's lost personal items it's a personal problem. Don't let her noise cloud your judgement. You've offered her more than a generous "settlement". If I were you I'd tell her take it or the deal is off the table. Give her a limited time to agree to the offer in writing (by the end of the day or by xx time today or whatever) and then DO take the deal off the table and stick to your guns. Good luck -- She sounds like a real piece of work!
  • Specialist · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 111 posts · 95 votes
    9y
    First, get a new pm co--- NEVER NEVER rent to roommates... one always leaves. My policy is when roommates apply, each has to qualify income-wise independently. I would just ignore her. It's done. You did way more than the 'right thing'. Let her sue. No one died in the home, so try to keep perspective. This tenant has no money for attorneys or filing. She's all talk...illogical offensive behavior to distract you in the hopes to milk a few more dollars out of the deal. Does your lease state: "mandatory mediation vs court?" If not, you need a new pm co. I had a tenant in a $300,000 house (in an upscale neighborhood in Charlotte) that saw a garden snake whisk thru the backyard in summer and decided he would use BUSHKILL to completely remove every blade of grass in the formerly lush backyard. When he moved, i was left with bare tree trunks and 1/3 acre of red mud . He demanded his sec dep returned. His $2200 sec dep no where near covered new landscaping. My handyman and i made 4 trips to the dump to haul off the bags of trash this family left ( they started packing about 10am on the last day of their lease). Yep they sued me. I went to court and listened to them ramble and when it was my turn to speak all i said was "Your honor, please review Item 12 on our executed lease as we agreed on mediation vs court for any disputes." ""Yes Mrs Hoover i see that, thank you, this case is dismissed." Know your lease. Insure your pm has a landlord friendly lease. IF your lady tenant ever scraped up the money to file a complaint in court, highly doubtful, have LARGE 10 x 12 photos of the damage.Stand your ground. Send the PM co to deal with their tenant choice. PM Cos carry insurance to protect them if they make mistakes (which happens to all of us). I still don't understand why you are involved or thinking about court if you hired a PM Co. I would review the screening package results from the pm co... this can't be the first time the problem child tenant has misbehaved. It doesn't sound like you are holding this PM Co accountable. If they have 400 properties , i find it interesting they've never "seen this before" in all their years of experience. Tenants are basically crazy at all rental price points... there are just way MORE crazy ones when rents are $1100 and less. PM as a business is a high liability endeavor. The pm co has to have an attorney on retainer at all times ( even if it's just a " "LEGAL SHIELD." membership ) to advise them along the way so these issues are stopped before they snowball into an annoying nightmare. RE Professionals also have free access to a team of attorneys at their State Real Estate Commission. I know this EX-Tenant is annoying, but don't let this fruitcake age you prematurely. We are all on a learning curve, but this is a PM CO PROBLEM, not yours.
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 112 posts · 66 votes
    9y

    I can't believe you are dealing with this. Let her sue, which she won't. and then hire another property manager, because they clearly suck and have given you bad advice and haven't handled the problem.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 506 posts · 311 votes
    9y

    I'm dealing with one now. the moment she said "attorney" I notified her in writing we would only communicate with her attorney and that we were waiting for her representation letter. Not a word for two months.

  • Investor · East Haven, CT · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 25 votes
    9y

    call her bluff. 

    let her sue. then you react with your records of receipts, and other correspondence. 

    After all this is over, fire the property management company.

    meanwhile, don't worry. 

  • Investor · Zürich, Zürich · Member since 2016 · 292 posts · 115 votes
    9y

    One of the main points of hiring a PM Co is to not having to deal with the "cow manure" (trying to avoid the explicit words here ;-) ) of exactly said sort. You pay your PM good money - to do what exactly?? It starts with their incompetent selection process. To me it seems they are also "cow manuring" you... The whole story is ridiculous.

    More importantly: I sense you are emotionally involved. That almost makes this a lost cause. Detach yourself immediately from any emotions (I know, might be difficult, but this is business!) and tell your PM Co to get their act together and handle this tenant issue.

    Fixing the damages is a different story, and there you might want to get involved since - again - the PM Co seems to be incapable of handling this properly.

    Finally, as has been said, start looking for a new PM Co. Good luck!

    @Robert Melcher I like that! good one.

  • Levi T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Amber Spence:

    Hey everyone,
    My husband and I had the tenant from hell in our single family home. We also hired a management company to manage the property. (Our first time as landlords, we outsourced to make sure we did everything right and was protected).
    Back in the spring we found out through our neighbors that tenants room mate was planning to move out 4-5 months early and tenant was worried she wouldn't be able to keep paying rent.

    A few weeks later tenant also advised management company that a sliding door locked itself while she was outside. management company sent out a company to fix. Repairman rebuilt the tracks. Tenant stated it wasn't locking properly after that. Repairman came back out and stated the whole frame needed replaced but no one would come out and do it. The management company was in the process of getting quotes (update the same door is still on and works and locks just fine!). The house also has a working alarm system. My husband and I payed the bill for the track rebuilt but were never notified of the additional complaints (until 2 weeks ago)
    So when the tenant was away someone broke into the house and stole two lap tops and a xbox. She didn't file a claim or a police report until weeks later, she didn't even notice. We never received a claim of door or window damages-none occurred. She later told our lawn guy the person that broke in was her ex workout partner. (The house is in an incredibly safe neighborhood as well). We all suspect it was staged so she could break the lease when her roommate moved out.
    Flash forward to the end of her lease, she started threatening law suites before she moved out that if her deposit was not returned in full she would be suing for any and everything. She did about 2k in damages to the house (chipped door frames, ink on walls, scraped up stair cases, etc). She also had a trampoline that killed a large patch of grass.
    We hired an attorney that advised giving back everything that could be a gray area so we agreed to give back everything minus the cost of resodding the area under the trampoline that is clearly stated in the lease. We also ask she sign a release that if we give her back her (undeserved) full deposit minus the small grass charge there will be no future law suites and everything could to put to rest. She agreed to these terms then the next day stated no deal she wants it ALL back as well or she is filing a law suit against the management company, us and our homeowners insurance for liable (nothing to do with her deposit). She's refused to take responsibility on ANYTHING.
    My husband and I and the management company are all beside ourself and our management company who has a portfolio of 400+ properties stated they have never dealt with anyone like this in all their experience. We do NOT want to give her back anymore because of how awful she is being and how much of the damages she caused we already absorbed. We also don't want to spend 10-20k in court fees over a cost to resodd a small area. but we don't want to let her get away with bullying/threatening everyone (which is exactly what she's been doing). It's clear she is desperate and after a money grab.
    Has anyone ever been through anything similar or have any advice?

    Thank you!!

    Slow things down. In your mind and in reality. If I had a dollar for every time a tenant said they where going to sue me or my agents, I'd have a lot of dollar. It's just grandstanding on her part.

    Firstly you need to call your PM company up and tell them to handle it, that means going to court, processing evictions, judgements for damages, etc. That's their job, that's what you paid them for, why are you not getting what you paid for! If they say they don't do that, find a new PM company ASAP. Courts are jammed full on PM companies and landlords filing and processing judgements and such for non-performing tenants everyday, all day. You should have never ever been talking to this tenant, or being this deep into the process as you are.

    For a company that is claiming they have 400+ units, and never had an eviction like this, they are full of it, or they lied to you about how many units they really manage, by a lot. Because this is everyday landlording. Things break, people lose jobs, people flake out, idk pick something, you just have to play the odds and averages and insure your moving quickly to get the bad ones out and the units rented again.

    I'm surprised your attorney told you if anything is in a gray area to just give her the money. The term "normal wear and tear" in it self is a gray area that many people draw all types of conclusions of what "normal" wear and tear is. Sounds like you should have keep her money and sent her a bill for a lot more. I would have keep all her money and told her to pound sand, not take her phone calls or anything, if she wants to bring a suit, let her, it will never happen. PM company should process her out like normal, and move on.

    This really could have been a few hundred dollar ordeal at best, but due to mismanagement it's costing you a lot more, you keep following that road and you wont be a landlord for long. You are where you are at now, so just stop and ask yourself what is the quickest and cheapest route to stopping all of this craziness and getting the unit rented to someone else. Once you have that answer, do that.

    This is not legal advice, entertainment only. Good luck!

  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Amber Spence

    I will echo most of the comments here. Assuming you have a good lease and proper move-in paperwork, then just document the condition of the house with pictures, get the items repaired, deduct from security deposit and send it to her with an itemized list of deductions.

    If she decides to sue then so be it. Have your documentation and walk into court. In my experience you get sued by the ones you never saw coming, not the ones that say it every time you talk.

    Good Luck!

    DISCLAIMER: Not legal advice just some dolt on the internet rambling away

  • Investor · Monroe, WI · Member since 2015 · 691 posts · 610 votes
    9y

    I agree with what's already been said. This lady is blaming you for her "ex" workout partner stealing her items and the fact that she did not notice them or didn't file a police report for several weeks thereafter tells me she probably made it up. Your lease should have a clause in it that states you are not responsible for the tenant's items and they are recommended to have renter's insurance and if they do not, you are not held liable. This woman is just blowing smoke. You offered most of the deposit back even though she caused a fair amount of damage? I would have never done that, she will never learn to take care of any property she lives in if the landlord will let her off so easy. I would document everything, do not talk to her unless it's in writing and don't give her back her deposit if you have receipts showing the damage and the deposit being used for those damages. If she takes you to court, it's very likely she will lose if you have proper documentation. 

  • Accountant · Lihue, HI · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 24 votes
    9y

    Call her bluff. Don't give her anything, and counter sue her for damages. Don't talk to her, and only have your attorney do the communicating. 

    If she can't afford to pay rent, she can't afford an attorney.

    You win. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix AZ / Kendallville, IN · Member since 2016 · 293 posts · 149 votes
    9y

    Somehow I would take her to court and at least ding her credit. She needs to be taught a lesson. That way, going forward, that will be with her for a while.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    9y

    What a bizarro story.

    So she did eventually file a police report? How does she know who broke in? If she knows who broke in why aren't they going after that guy? If there is no police report then I can't imagine her getting anywhere in front of a judge if she tried to sue you guys over the burglary. I would make sure that whatever agreement you're trying to get her to sign will absolve you personally of any liability leading to the burglary.

    One thing people keep saying here is that tenants need money to sue. That's not true if there are lawyers who will do it on a contingency fee basis, meaning, the tenant pays nothing, if they win the lawyer gets like a third and tenant two-thirds, if they lose the lawyer is out their time and fees and the tenant still pays nothing. Around here with our tenant sided laws and contingency fee lawyers the threat of a lawsuit from a tenant can be a real threat for that reason, but I don't know if that's the case in Florida. I would ask your attorney about that, if she would need to pay an attorney upfront, or if there would be contingency fee arrangements available to her. And I would make sure whatever attorney you're talking to deals with landlord tenant stuff on a regular basis. 

    Do you or the management company have pictures or video of the place before they moved in?  If not, I understand why the lawyer said to refund the gray area stuff, again, around here on something that sounds like wear and tear without documented visual evidence of before and after, the judge will side with the tenant.

    The other thing, you can spend thousands to defend yourself, win, and perhaps win a judgement against her for your legal fees, but if she has no money you may never collect on that judgement. And I *think* you can only be awarded legal fees if the lease in the case of a landlord tenant landlord the prevailing party wins attorneys fees. A judgement on her credit report from money owed to a landlord will get future landlords attention for sure. I would ask your attorney about that as well.

    Keep us posted on what happens.

    **I am not a lawyer this is not legal advise**

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Scott Weaner:

    She will not sue you, and if she does, you will win if you have documented well.

    Call her bluff.

     This. I went through this recently and the idiots didn't do a damned thing. Each voicemail and email proved further that they were lying through their teeth. Plus I had unpaid utility bills, pictures of trash left behind, damage, and their general nonsense. They even claimed that I evicted them minutes after paying rent (days late, after several attempts to get them to pay, and still didn't pay late fees) when in reality they started making all kinds of bizzare accusations so just gave them notice to move out at the end of the month. The next day they sent me an email that they were moving out that day. Somehow they thought that entitled them to that months rent back. Scammers got "scammed" I guess.

    Kept what was owed out of their deposit. 

    Remember, legal expenses are a business expense for you, not for her. You have the advantage, and from what I've seen so far, these people just talk like this to try to intimidate you into giving them more than they are owed. Lot's of scared landlords just write a check I'm sure. How unlucky for my tenants that I don't lie down for people trying to take advantage of me. I screw them back.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Kurt K.:

    Somehow I would take her to court and at least ding her credit. She needs to be taught a lesson. That way, going forward, that will be with her for a while.

     I agree. Send her to collections if her deposit doesn't cover the damages. I have a dead beat tenant I just kicked out (different from a few months ago, different rental) and her deposit won't cover the damages. After her slew of insults while staying well beyond the lease, I've elected to send her a nice bill, with one letter...before it goes to collections. Good luck finding a decent place to live with that on your credit. Oh, want to go to court and dispute it? Sure, I have all the emails, texts, pictures of damages and video/audio of the insults and trespassing. LET'S GO.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix AZ / Kendallville, IN · Member since 2016 · 293 posts · 149 votes
    9y

    Went to court against a inherited tenant. I got a judgement for $1400 in damages and the judge said even on unemployment he has to pay me $50 / month. That is 2.3 years he will be paying me and I'm ok with that. He will think of me every month. On top of that we dinged his credit. 

    For the fact he didn't want to move out and was harassing the PM in a number of ways, it was well deserved.

  • John HornerPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    9y

    I would go all or nothing.  I've been to court, it SUCKS, even when you are innocent, and you never know how a judge will side.

    Either give her nothing and prove it, or give her it all and move on.  She probably won't sue, but still, is it worth the risk?

  • Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hahahah... She was worried that she couldn't afford to pay you rent but she can afford an attorney? Sorry, I refuse to be bullied. Looks like she's fixing all of the damage she caused according to the lease. 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    I always tell people who threaten to sue that there will be a countersuit.

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