can i shutdown water line if tenants doesnt pay water bill?

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can i shutdown water line if tenants doesnt pay water bill?

Erod R.
New York City, NY · Member since 2008 · 20 posts · 1 vote

hi everyone,  i own property in philadelphia, PA and also darby PA.  at the beginning i was paying the water bill because it was reasonable between $160-$170 a month on a six unix house.  some of the tenants were evicted due to non rent payment and now i replaced those with new tenants.  my water bill is coming high now between $250-$400.  sometimes is $250, other times $323 and even $400 a month.  all the leases now mentioned that tenants have to pay for their water usage.  i installed submeter for each unit to determine who pays how much etc.

my property management mentioned that if tenants dont pay their portion of water bill, we can shut down their individual water line and leave open whoever is paying for water.  he said that because we installed submeter we would not get in trouble if we are in court.  besides, the lease say they are responsible for water.  is this true?  now that i have submeter /individual water line plus lease mentioned tenants pay for water, can i shut down water line whoever doesnt pay without getting into legal problem?  

any one has experience on this?  please share your experience/comments and let me know i if this is legit to do.  thanks 

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Joel Wilmoth
Property Management · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 111 posts · 94 votes
9y

Our company also manages foreclosures for institutions.  Trust me when I say that tenants who need to use the bathroom will not stop using the bathroom when inconvenienced by no water.  

It will take a haz-mat team to bring your units back to rentable, healthy condition.  Dont ever let any tenant occupy a property where the water has been turned off!

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  • Jill F.
    Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    In ohio it is illegal for a landlord to shut off utilities to a unit-- You have to do an eviction for non-payment... don't know in PA

    1Reply
  • Kyle J.
    Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    @Erod R. You cannot shut off essential utilities, such as water, to a tenant's residence. This is commonly referred to as a self-help eviction. If I were you, I'd read up on the law because the advice you're getting from your Property Manager is seriously flawed and likely to get you in trouble if you ever do end up in friont of a judge. 

    1Reply
  • Andrew Johnson
    Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Erod R. I've never done that and would never do it. Legal issues aside, you're going to have one pissed off tenant who is still living in the unit. And they will be angry at you, not the utility company. Tenants are unhappy enough when you evict them. Now you're evicting them and not letting them shower! You'll save on water bill but pay for it when it's time to get the unit rent-ready post-eviction.
    0Reply
  • Joel Wilmoth
    Property Management · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 111 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    Our company also manages foreclosures for institutions.  Trust me when I say that tenants who need to use the bathroom will not stop using the bathroom when inconvenienced by no water.  

    It will take a haz-mat team to bring your units back to rentable, healthy condition.  Dont ever let any tenant occupy a property where the water has been turned off!

    2Reply
  • Tom Ott
    Equity Raiser and Turnkey Provider · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    0Reply
  • Christopher Blanco
    Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 511 posts · 345 votes
    9y

    @Erod R.  Easy way to avoid this in the future. Invoice your tenants for the water bill monthly on their rent payment portal. They have to pay the water bill AND the rent check in full to be compliant for paying rent for the month. 

    1Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Easiest way to deal with issues of this nature is to insure all tenants are on M2M lease. When they do not pay you do not renew their lease. Ultimately you still may have to evict but you would anyway.

    Always give notice to cure or quit the day after money is owed. No pay no stay is best management approach. Tenants get the message very quickly that you are a no nonsense serious landlord.

    0Reply
  • Nicole A.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Perhaps for future leases, have it state that any water bill over $160/month will have the difference charged to the tenants on their next month's rent as "additional rent".

    0Reply
  • Erod R.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2008 · 20 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    thank you everyone for your honest response. everyone provided good ideas.  just wondering if i can take a different approach.  instead of shutting down the water for non payment, is it possible to shut down only the hot water for nonpayment?  they will continue to get water but only the cold.  they should be able to flush toilet, brush their teeth. showering maybe a problem.  is this still not legal if i only shut the hot water?

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  • Nicole A.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    That seems like grey area and also passive aggressive. Has your PM not talked directly to the tenants about the high usage?

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    What you want to do is solve the problem not play games. Take responsibility of the situation and issue a notice to pay. You need t get your business practices in order if you intend to stay in business.

    Put on your landlord pants on and do the job you signed up for or hire a PM that will do the job.

    1Reply
  • Frank Chin
    Investor · Bayside, NY · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I am a NYC landlord, and was advised by legal counsel not to do it. Individual was boyfriend of tenant not on the lease, and the tenant, his girlfriend, left leaving him behind due to abuse. Long story, refused rent payments from him, and fortunately left 2 months later.

    0Reply
  • Shaun Patterson
    Property Manager · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 296 posts · 143 votes
    9y

    Its a serious grey area that will definitely give you the slumlord name. We have all charges that the tenants have to pay on the tenant portal. If they dont pay the utilities on the next months rent it shows the past due money owed. All monies paid get added to the previous balance. They then get a late fee for not paying everything in full. This will then give you the option to issue the notices needed to evict. Ether they will pay after they notice what happened or they have to leave. 

    1Reply
  • Erod R.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2008 · 20 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Hi Nicole, Thomas, thank you for your input.  yes, PM already told tenant they need to pay water. besides, it is on the lease and he explain to them before moving in.  tenants said they didnt know it was in the lease bla bla bla.  PM tried many times to get them to pay but again we cannot force them.  this is why we are trying to make it such that you pay or hotwater get cut off and you only get the cold water. if it is illegal to to this, then i guess eviction is the way.  

    0Reply
  • Nicole A.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Erod R. If it's in the lease that they've signed, why can you not enforce payments? Them not knowing it was in the lease is not an excuse. I would imagine if they only pay rent, but not the water portion, then they are behind and you file for eviction. Why is your PM unable to do this?

    0Reply
  • Erod R.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2008 · 20 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Hi Nicole,  

    yes, they are paying rent on time but they are behind on the water bill.  my PM is trying to work with them to get them to pay.  PM is enforcing the rule but tenants are not paying. he is willing to evict them if they dont pay but would like to try to solve the problem first as eviction and getting new tenant takes some time.  

    i was under the impression that it was legal  if the lease say you have to pay the water then hot water will be shutdown if you dont pay.  if it is illegal to do this, then i guess there is no other choice to evict them for nonpayment as they will be breaking the lease even though they are paying the rent.  

    0Reply
  • Jeff B.
    Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Turning off ANY utility is known as a Retaliatory Practice and most if not all States make this a Civil violation.  PM or Landlord should know better unless you intend to charge heavy Legal Fees to your PnL.  Additionally, I would expect that this would induce the tenant to retaliate with heavy damages to the property - - broken fixtures and holes in the wall.  IMO, it's a dumb way to pick a fight that you will loose.

    1Reply
  • Nicole A.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Erod R. I assume you are paying the water bill up front and the tenants are supposed to be paying you back essentially? Assuming this is the case, again, why aren't they considered behind on rent. Unless there's a law in your area not allowing it, typically utilities are additional rent. Therefore, they're not paying all the rent.

    Stop considering turning off the water or even the hot water. Terrible idea.

    Yes, eviction is your answer to get some results.

    Unless we're missing details, it sounds like you need a better PM.

    1Reply
  • Paulette Midgette
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 276 votes
    9y

    @Erod R.,  You are legally required to keep rental premises livable in Pennsylvania, under a legal doctrine called the    A property without running water is considered uninhabitable.  You cannot turn off the water under any circumstances. 

    If you turn off the water and then try to evict them, this can be viewed as retaliation and this is illegal, at least in PA.

    In terms of your lease, it requires the tenants to pay the water bill, and they have failed to do so, so technically they are in breach of your lease. Then you can take any legal actions available including eviction if permitted by state or local laws.  I don't know if Philadelphia or the State allow evictions for not payment of utility bills.  For reasons I am sure you are aware of since you have a rental in Philly, I prefer take the responsibility for paying the water bills in the units I own to avoid situations such as this one.

    If eviction is not an options, then you can take the tenant to court under a civil suit.  Either way you will need to pay the bill.

    Finally, a word for thought.  I have found that the vast majority of management companies in Philadelphia are not well versed about state and local laws.  They know the eviction process very well but not much else.  You need to always do your homework and double check with the management company tells you.

    0Reply
  • Joe White
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 515 posts · 196 votes
    9y

    As a Property Manager in Philadelphia - don't do that!
    Also, such a high jump in water usage is a sign that there is a problem within your system. It could be even a slight drip to an outside faucet; but the management company should be looking into this.

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Get a new PM the one you have is being paid to do a job that he obviously is not performing. 

    Your PM is a bigger problem than your tenant for not having already served a pay or quit notice.

    You need to get on top of your business. Terminate your PM or tell him his job is to inforce your lease not "work" with tenants. Remind him he works for you not your tenants.

    0Reply
  • Shaun Patterson
    Property Manager · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 296 posts · 143 votes
    9y

    @Erod R.   The issue that your having is that your PM is not correctly billing the rental charges. Its not hard to correctly bill back due charges. He does not have to try and get them to pay. They pay what they want and they then have a balance due at the end of the month. They will then get a late fee for the remaining balance. On the next bill they will see the late fee, the remainder for the rent and the new rent that is due. One of three things will happen. They will call and complain , not say anything and pay the same again hoping that the fees go away, or pay everything in full including the back rent. Based on what they do the PM should have the correct forms ready to move forward. The Pm is putting in too much work on their part. This isnt deal or no deal...This could also be a issue with not correctly explaining in writing what is expected of the tenant. That's just a guess since I wasn't in the room when the PM talked to the tenant.  

    0Reply
  • Erod R.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2008 · 20 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Thank you everyone. there are a lot of good input here.  however, i dont understand why utilities company can shut down electricity for example if tenants dont pay and us landlord can not do the same for hot water.   as i mentioned earlier, i am not shutting down the whole water system. just the hot water for the non payment tenant which based on your input it is illegal.    i will try some of your suggestions but then again i dont know if you can evict someone for not paying the water they agreed to  if they still pay the rent. 

    i am not sure how the PM is billing them but he tells me that he sent a copy of the water bill along with what each tenant needs to pay based on the sub meter reading.  tenants seems to ignore the bill most of the time and pay something very few time.  it seems hard to collect from them even after billing them.  maybe only options is to evict them as breach of contract as some of you suggest. 

    0Reply
  • Nicole A.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Erod R. It doesn't matter that you don't understand why something is illegal. That doesn't make it okay just because you disagree. It boils down this: do it if you want, but be ready for consequence. 

    And like it's been stated numerous times already, even if it's legal, you do realize that your tenants could then retaliate and damage your property? And you know you won't get repair money out of them.

    Again, your PM sounds terrible. He is unable to get tenants to pay bills. And he has you so deeply involved in this situation that you're considering turning off the hot water and posting about it here on BP.

    There really is no more advice we can give you other than don't turn off the hot water and either demand results from your current PM or tell them you'll find a new PM .

    0Reply
  • James Galla
    Attorney · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 535 posts · 389 votes
    9y

    @Erod R. Utility companies shutting off services is categorically different than landlords shutting off utilities to tenants because there are different interests at play. And, you should be able to evict someone for defaulting on your lease. The issue comes in when you, as the landlord, are acting to deprive them of necessary utilities that make the property habitable. You should find a new tenant.

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