FIrearm Declaration Form

Property Manager · Wichita, KS · Member since 2015 · 73 posts · 36 votes

Greetings from Wichita. This question is not for political debate, we are aware of the laws of Kansas regarding firearms. We would like, however, to be proactive and not surprised if a tenant owns a firearm. We would like to include a Firearm Disclosure addendum to our leases where the tenant voluntarily lists their firearms, ammunition and such. Do any of you use this, and have your attorneys taken a look at this? More and more owners and service people do have a risk of being surprised and although we do not want to violate the tenant's right to bear arms, we believe it is within our right to know if they own one. This is for single-family residences primarily.

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Shaun C.

Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2015 · 257 posts · 230 votes

Are you also going to ask them to fill out a survey about how much alcohol they use weekly? If they curse? If they attend church? Their political affiliation? Not your business. Assume everyone has a gun and act accordingly. I admire the thought, and just like it's their right to have a gun, it's your right to do business with whoever you want; but I think it's a bad idea for business.

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Aaron K.
Specialist · Riverside, CA · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y
I have never heard of this form, it seems odd, it is used I presume so that you wouldn't be surprised if you had a gun pulled on you by a tenant, but if you have these fears anyway I wouldn't be going to meet the tenant in person anyway. Check with a lawyer because if you get someone who really is a gun rights advocate they might try to sue for housing discrimination even though that is not your intent, they might feel that way simply because you asked the question. Definitely consult with a lawyer or two if you decide to move forward with this.
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Shaun C.
Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2015 · 257 posts · 230 votes
8y
Are you also going to ask them to fill out a survey about how much alcohol they use weekly? If they curse? If they attend church? Their political affiliation? Not your business. Assume everyone has a gun and act accordingly. I admire the thought, and just like it's their right to have a gun, it's your right to do business with whoever you want; but I think it's a bad idea for business.
13 Reply
Bill F.
Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y
@Kristen Williams firearms owners are not a protected class so you are well within your rights to ask them to disclose that information. They also have the right to refuse. At that point you deny their application and move on.
Looking at it from an upside to downside risk it would appear to me that you don't gain a lot, but have an increased exposure. From your point of view, what do you gain by knowing your tenant owns firearms? Piece of mind? If its that, the its a limited upside.
The best downside is you limit your tenant pool by removing applicants who don't want to disclose firearms ownership. Going further down the spectrum, lawsuit, while unfounded, takes time and money. There is some advocacy group that may take up the applicants case pro bono to make a point. Applicants can leave reviews on social media and get you a reputation as the 'anti gun landlord' even though that isn't the case. If you lived in NYC, LA, Boston, that may be an asset, but in Kansas it probably hurts more than.
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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
8y
It's your house but it feels like micro-management to me. If I were a tenant with firearms, I would never disclose it to my landlord or anyone else. Would you try kicking me out if you discovered I lied about the presence of firearms?
I treat adults like adults. Many crimes are committed with knives, blunt objects, and hands yet I doubt you would require tenants to register those items. Why are firearms any different? If you can't trust your tenants with firearms then maybe you need to increase your screening standards.
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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
8y
I am renting in class B areas . I wouldnt ask , and I dont care one way or another if someone wants to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. I wouldnt want to be the test case if you deny someone based on gun ownership
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Jared Viernes
Investor · Wichita, KS · Member since 2017 · 293 posts · 192 votes
8y
What is your recourse if they lie to you? If I was a renter I would. Personally, I think it’s too much of a hot button issue. Especially here in Wichita where the libertarian party is fairly strong.
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Jared Viernes
Investor · Wichita, KS · Member since 2017 · 293 posts · 192 votes
8y
In fact, I seem to remember there being a big fight on WSU campus about the weapon policy on campus.
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Bob B.
Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
@Kristen Williams Curious, why you would want this info. In addition you want to know about ammo?
Would you require them to notify you when they add more or use some at the range?
What is "the such"?
How would you enforce it?
I don't know anyone that has a list of their ammo.
Just advertise that you don't rent to gun owners and don't worry about the form.
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Jared Viernes
Investor · Wichita, KS · Member since 2017 · 293 posts · 192 votes
8y
Here’s an interesting take on just this issue: http://rentalhousingjournal.com/articles/2018/03/05/%C2%A0can-landlord-say-no-guns-my-apartments
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Bob B.
Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
@Jared Viernes thanks for the link. Good article.
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Kristen Williams
OP
Property Manager · Wichita, KS · Member since 2015 · 73 posts · 36 votes
8y
Thank you all for the passionate views and input so far. This came up in a new owner discussion, where the owners, who own several rental homes in the area, had to do a welfare check on a tenant who usually is great with no drama. For safety measures, they called 911, who asked if the tenants had any firearms, for which they answered they did not know.
So they went to their attorney and asked if this question should be asked, for awareness purposes. The answer was that this is not a protected class, and since the law only allows for certain instances where you are the homeowner (not renter), that asking for the information is for the safety of both tenant and owner and any service folks or public utility folks should an issue arise.
We are not in the business of trying to find ways to deny renters. This isn't our policy. However, the reason I asked opinions is that the owners have included this form in their leases with the clear explanation that they are ok with the presence of them, but it can be declared that they (the renter) is responsible for any safety and security issues that could arise.
We live in Kansas, and many conceal and carry and many enjoy their firearms. We are not against firearms. The owner asked us to continue this practice they use if they hire us.
We have sent this to our attorney for review, and have to decide whether to make it a policy to ask for disclosure. We will not evict anyone for owning a gun, unless they become a felon after move-in. We do a criminal background screen by permission prior to move-in, and even now, cannot solely deny an applicant who has a felony over 7 years old (new law).
Times are changing and so we want to do what is fair to all - and we are called to protect the owners' investment primarily, and maintain enjoyment of the home for the tenant.
Thank you again for giving us a lot to think about in this research.
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Shane H.
Investor · Wichita, KS · Member since 2015 · 769 posts · 279 votes
8y
Originally posted by @Kristen Williams:
Greetings from Wichita. This question is not for political debate, we are aware of the laws of Kansas regarding firearms. We would like, however, to be proactive and not surprised if a tenant owns a firearm. We would like to include a Firearm Disclosure addendum to our leases where the tenant voluntarily lists their firearms, ammunition and such. Do any of you use this, and have your attorneys taken a look at this? More and more owners and service people do have a risk of being surprised and although we do not want to violate the tenant's right to bear arms, we believe it is within our right to know if they own one. This is for single-family residences primarily.
Kristen I like you personally - but this is a bad idea. As a tenant I'd tell you to go fly a kite and I'd do business elsewhere (Reading the post above I see this was from an owner you may do business with). This might work on one of the coasts but not in middle America...way too invasive. And as someone else pointed out - with social media and all - I dont think you'd want to stir the hornets nest as the anti-gun landlord as someone pointed out above. I dont think taking this owners business would be worth the damage to your reputation and the invasiveness they are asking you to perform.
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Account Closed
Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
I am not sure I would ask for an inventory If I did not want guns on the property, I would probably just ban them from the property.
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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
8y
There are two ways of addressing issues: fact-based and emotion-based.
If the owner and 9-1-1 operator worked on facts, they wouldn't be concerned about firearms when conducting a welfare check on a tenant. The vast majority of welfare checks prove the individual is fine and it was just a miscommunication about their schedule, a dead batter, a heavy sleeper, someone knocked out on prescription meds, etc. The odds of firearm involvement is small and the odds that a firearms would present a danger is miniscule.
The idea that the mere presence of a firearm somehow increases your risk is completely unfounded which is why many of us find your question unreasonable.
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Thomas S.
Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
8y
I do not see the point in asking. In states where gun ownership is common it is logical for a landlord to assume every tenant has fire arms and ammunition.
That should be a landlords go to assumption regardless of whether they do or do not have a gun. You would approach the subject the same as a police officer. Assume they have weapons.
The greatest threat of weapons in a home is to the gun owner and their family not the landlord.
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John Thedford
Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
8y
Would I have to declare all of them including seven MP5, my Colt M16A1, my Thompson SMG, dozens of others, my pen guns, my cane guns, my silencers, etc? Makes me want to move in just to get a current inventory:)
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Kyle Calvin
Attorney · Wichita, KS · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 3 votes
8y
Of course you are allowed to discriminate against gun owners, but in Kansas (where half the population owns firearms), you would drastically limit your tenant pool. Even if you're just asking for disclosure purposes only, this will automatically have a negative connotation. A better option would just be to assume when performing welfare checks that every tenant owns a gun, and proceed with caution.
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Ryan Dossey
Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
Even if you ban guns they can still bring them in. Just ask all the restaurants with the "no guns" signs. As a CCW holder the only legal recourse I face if you notice and say something is you asking me to leave. If I don't I can be hit with trespassing but that's it.

The only places this is different is federal/state buildings and schools.

In Indiana I would say most of our tenants probably own.

If your tenants are like ours... This would be viewed as very "big brother" and I see it creating more hassle than having the answer to a 911 Dispatchers question.
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Mike CumbieBusiness Member
REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
HI @Kristen Williams,
Personally I think it is a waste of time. You are more than welcome to have a "No Gun" property. Which is a different discussion.
As far as asking for an "inventory of guns" it's a useless for a couple reasons.
1) People buy and sell them all the time, at what point are they "being dishonest" with you? When they went to a gun show and bought a new one or sold 2 off. Do you want the honest guy calling you 6 times a month asking to update the form I went shooting now I am down on my 9mm to 350 rounds and I fired off 20 of the 12 gauge. Tomorrow I am going to the store to replenish the 9mm. Ring... ring.... they only had 2 boxes so I only got that, On Saturday I am going to see if the Sporting goods store has some...... ring ring..... Hi, I sold off one of my rifles, the guy at the store offered me a good price so I took it. I'm going to be looking at a new .45......ring...ring... A buddy brought me some handloads.....
2) Saying "Apartment 3B did not fill out the form, so we now know there are no guns on scene" is a joke and does nothing to help and may even be more of a liability for you. The news story is going to have some Captain in front of a podium "The landlord informed us that there were no guns on the premises, Now 3 officers are in critical condition and a neighbor child was hurt in the crossfire".
3) The absolute only upside is a couple people may still want to rent and don't mind giving a list. Afterwards if they happen to for some reason become unresponsive when you are sending the cops in you can say "I know he owns 3 guns.... or did at one time".
Just my 2 cents and good luck on whatever you decide to do.
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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
8y
@Kristen Williams why do you want to be in possession of this information? There is more legal risk in you knowing what guns they have than not knowing. Let's say you are aware the tenant has 5 assault rifles and the nut job goes on a shooting spree. Do you really want to be the landlord who knew he had the guns?
As far as a welfare check, whether they own guns or not, you ALWAYS want to tell the 911 dispatcher that you are not sure if they have a weapon. Just because they don't register a gun doesn't mean they don't have one now. Worse yet, what if you tell the 911 dispatcher they have a gun and the person gets shot, only to find they had NO gun?
From a practical standpoint, you could find yourself in legal trouble if you had people register guns. The NRA loves to come to the defense of gun owners. If you are trying to push some anti-gun agenda and have deep pockets, then go for it. I am not sure how the case would turn out, other than knowing you will spend a ton of money fighting it.
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Kristen Williams
OP
Property Manager · Wichita, KS · Member since 2015 · 73 posts · 36 votes
8y
I'm a little tickled that most of you didn't read the initial post. We do not want to ban guns. We do not want to be political. We are not looking to create a new policy for all of our rentals. We specialize in single-family homes and work for many diverse owners globally. So each has a mindset and set of concerns of their own.
The goal was regarding only one management agreement and taking on this owners homes, who have had a gun allowance policy but use a full disclosure. We were not comfortable with this, and glad I came here to get some opinions, because it is definitely a HOT TOPIC. All responses are considered. Thank you all so much! K.
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