Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
I called the county permitting office and they do require a permit to replace a water heater. Since it's highway robbery to pay a licensed plumber to do anything, I was wondering if most people ignore the permit issue when dealing with the heater, or is it better to go ahead and pay the plumber for liability reasons? thanks
Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 671 votes
15y
To add to what Mitch was saying, inspectors just care that it is done in a work-man like manner. It is mostly to raise money for the city and to pay for the inpsctor's wage and the union benefits for the city.
There are not a lot of huge plumbing jobs so they require you to pull a permit for anything other than changing washers (this includes changing a toilet or faucet). This ensures that they are able to keep busy and keep the funds coming in.
We are in a public place here and my advice to you would be to pull a permit. It is obviously cheaper to not do it but it isnt legal. Also, if you don't pull permits, I would not advertise it on the internet.
Investor · Hamilton, VA · Member since 2017 · 14 posts · 10 votes
7y
It really depends on your market. IN mine permits are required but never enforced and no ones gonna check it. So I just make sure I have someone I know if reliable to do the install at the best price.
Rental Property Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2017 · 203 posts · 188 votes
7y
It took me 4 places to find someone willing to sell me a tankless heater. Everyone wanted to quote me with the install price...
I had to run new 3/4" pipe from the main trunk line under the house, replacing the 1/2" gas line but it was all easy. And the exhaust pipe had to be changed to the tankless inlet/exhaust pipe, that was a little more time consuming.
For tank water heaters, they are super easy once you muscle the old out and the new one in. I don't hire a plumber for that ever.
Hi Steve, I think you are incorrect about the cause for the types of explosions referenced. The occasional explosion that damages surrounding houses I believe must be due to NG. There's simply not enough energy or mass stored in a high pressure situation within the tank (with steam/water) to do that much damage.
While the T&P relief valve and pipe going straight down is enforced in the jurisdiction here, and I honestly don't know the extent to which a worst case related to this failure might go - I can with confidence say that the explosions we see on the news that affect/level an entire house and affect surrounding houses are due to NG leaks.
Hi Steve, I think you are incorrect about the cause for the types of explosions referenced. The occasional explosion that damages surrounding houses I believe must be due to NG. There's simply not enough energy or mass stored in a high pressure situation within the tank (with steam/water) to do that much damage.
While the T&P relief valve and pipe going straight down is enforced in the jurisdiction here, and I honestly don't know the extent to which a worst case related to this failure might go - I can with confidence say that the explosions we see on the news that affect/level an entire house and affect surrounding houses are due to NG leaks.
Time for you to retract part of your statement. Here is video of an electric hot water heater being exploded, via overpressure condition when no T&P is installed.
Thanks for the video. Good ol Mythbusters. Was very cool show especially when it first came out.
That said - I'm not sure what part of my post you're thinking I should retract? This was the explosion referenced by Bill I was referring to (and I've on various occasions seen these on the local news):
While I certainly cannot say with absolute certainty that a water heater failure as you linked to and was demonstrated in your mythbusters video, could not cause secondary damage, for instance by severing the NG line feeding it (as it would likely do this) - the primary failure and explosion demonstrated in the video due to the T&P relief failure would not possess the energy / mass to produce the damage that Bill was referencing above. Yes, lots of damage, but not the kind of damage Bill described.
The type of explosion that Bill referenced would have to be due to the levels of energy supplied by an excess amount of flammable gas such as NG being leaked and present, and THEN a spark igniting it.
So, in my opinion, that T&P failure would be unlikely to cause the explosion referenced by Bill even secondarily. The more likely culprit would be a sustained leak of NG, followed by the production of ignition source (for instance some period of time passing and then ignition happening). I will eat crow enough to grant you it'd be possible for that T&P failure to occur first, then some time passing while large amounts of NG entered an environment, then spark/BOOM. So, I suppose it'd be possible to have a small boom, then a big boom later.
Anyways, to kind of try to veer back onto OP's question (although I know this is an old topic) I think the qualifications of the installer are what are controllable to focus on. The T&P valve nowadays ships with the new water heater units being installed so that failure point I think we just chalk up to Mother Fortune (as failure of that valve would precipitate behavior in your referenced video). The possibility of a leak, however, gets into installer qualifications and methods which I think as investors we do have degree of control over.
My opinion on the permit question is to use business considerations to gauge risk of going whatever direction one goes, and to do your best to make sure you have a qualified installer.
Thanks for the video. Good ol Mythbusters. Was very cool show especially when it first came out.
That said - I'm not sure what part of my post you're thinking I should retract? This was the explosion referenced by Bill I was referring to (and I've on various occasions seen these on the local news):
While I certainly cannot say with absolute certainty that a water heater failure as you linked to and was demonstrated in your mythbusters video, could not cause secondary damage, for instance by severing the NG line feeding it (as it would likely do this) - the primary failure and explosion demonstrated in the video due to the T&P relief failure would not possess the energy / mass to produce the damage that Bill was referencing above. Yes, lots of damage, but not the kind of damage Bill described.
The type of explosion that Bill referenced would have to be due to the levels of energy supplied by an excess amount of flammable gas such as NG being leaked and present, and THEN a spark igniting it.
So, in my opinion, that T&P failure would be unlikely to cause the explosion referenced by Bill even secondarily. The more likely culprit would be a sustained leak of NG, followed by the production of ignition source (for instance some period of time passing and then ignition happening). I will eat crow enough to grant you it'd be possible for that T&P failure to occur first, then some time passing while large amounts of NG entered an environment, then spark/BOOM. So, I suppose it'd be possible to have a small boom, then a big boom later.
Anyways, to kind of try to veer back onto OP's question (although I know this is an old topic) I think the qualifications of the installer are what are controllable to focus on. The T&P valve nowadays ships with the new water heater units being installed so that failure point I think we just chalk up to Mother Fortune (as failure of that valve would precipitate behavior in your referenced video). The possibility of a leak, however, gets into installer qualifications and methods which I think as investors we do have degree of control over.
My opinion on the permit question is to use business considerations to gauge risk of going whatever direction one goes, and to do your best to make sure you have a qualified installer.
My post was made following the post by the OP @Bienes Raices where it was stated the hot water heater in question was electric, implying that it was not vulnerable to explosion of the sort that a gas leak would produce. My post mentioned no fuel source, and did not mention what Bill Gulley had written.
You did state that my original post was incorrect - and you have not provided any evidence to support that - even in light of my evidence refuting that part of your statement.
Some people can't admit they're wrong even when proven so - it's OK, the posts I have made in this thread are not incorrect despite any statements you've made that might say so. I have on several occasions admitted to an incorrect posting when somebody has actually posted information that proved it. Please go back to my original post, read the post immediately preceding it, then quote my post and highlight that which you believe to be incorrect if you want to debate this.
Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
When you sell and house looks like turn key, the prospects want a list of improvements and will validate the permits go with it. Most of the lawsuits is crappy quality from unlicensed handyman. They do not know the code. Inspect identify the code violations and you get dinged at offering price. Drainage pan, seismic bracing (here In CA). CO exhaust, maintenance, coupling. That is one example of a unpermitted H2O.
If the difference in cost is small, do it legally.
You're right about the order of posts. If you were referring to 'water heaters' as THE water heater that the OP posted about, then I think what you were trying to communicate, I'd admit, was correct. However, you said 'water heaters' without providing any specifics of which water heaters you are referring to. I read your post to be saying what it was, which was water heater catastrophic failures being caused (across the board) by that T&P issue you linked the video. I think without the nuance of this discussion, people miss out on what risks exist in terms of installation, based on the application. Part of the point in us responding is to help the OP and part of it is to provide useful perspective to others on here.
Real Estate Agent · Oakland, CA · Member since 2018 · 54 posts · 42 votes
7y
Wow, this thread is 7 years old. He might need to replace that water heater second time by now. Whether you need a permit or not depend on your local regulation. Just ask your trusted professional contractors. If they all said that you should get a permit, then get one. If not, I would skip it.
No need to get a permit for installing a water heater. City ordinances only require permits for more elaborate items- ie., changing fire sprinkler piping, moderate electrical items, extending exterior block walls higher.
Banning Ca. · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 6 votes
7y
I personally probably wouldn't pull a permit unless there were some other plumbing issues that needed to be taken care of to properly install it. Some jurisdiction are requiring expansion tanks to be installed as extra precautions.
Rental Property Investor · Indiana...mostly · Member since 2019 · 468 posts · 245 votes
7y
If a permit is required, I would get the permit. In my opinion, it's not worth the risk of not pulling a permit. Permits for repair or replacement hot water heaters are not required in every jurisdiction.
I would always hire a licensed person for work like plumbing, electrical, etc.
Where I live, I can do this that sort of work in my own house but I can't do it for others if I'm not licensed. I wouldn't have anybody who is unlicensed work in my rentals for any kind of work that requires a license.
Rental Property Investor · New Castle, DE · Member since 2016 · 376 posts · 158 votes
7y
I recently got one installed by my GC after a home warranty company told me my warranty didnt cover it smh They sent me a check for almost the cost a new one and I paid my contractor to install it. No permit pulled.
And let me set the record straight..... I didn't blow up 4 houses with that NG explosion, I only blew up 3 houses, 1 was just badly damaged, but not "blown up"
I've never replaced a water heater with a permit and have yet to encounter any problems with doing so. But then again, i guess it depends on where you live and if that's strictly enforced.
Contractor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2018 · 167 posts · 159 votes
7y
Dirty little secret.........most insurance policies are voided if non licensed / non permitted work is performed AND it is determined that was the cause of the damage / claim....... If you have an unlicensed sparky swapping out a panel and there's a fire guess what happens.........