Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 26 votes
We put our home on Zillow/FB Marketplace/Avail about 10 days ago. I've gotten a lot of interest, but no follow through. A potential renter wanted to see the house but asked to fill out the application first. I thought that was odd, I offered that she see if first or call with any questions. She called and told me straight off that her husband has 2 prior felonies. First was in 1994 and the second was in 2014 and he is on probation. Am I naive to consider them? I'm considering giving them a tour just to see how I feel when I meet him. She also told me they had a home-fire and are staying in a hotel and want to move in asap. Is that another red flag?
Being upfront and honest with you before either of you waste any time is true indicator a bad person has changed for the good. There are a million ways around landlord background checks believe me. I was in prison for stealing cars and drugs and my partner for attempted murder and we are both changed people with wives and children and big houses and millions in assets. Some people do change. If they gave you the runaround and then we’re honest with you that’s a different story but they gambled by being honest with you knowing they might not be able to move in Because they have changed in their hearts and are no longer willing to deceive anyone.
I'm 100% fine with and agree that I discriminate against people who are not in a protected class. The thing is, this is a business. I have the right to discriminate who I want to do business with. The fact that they served their time only satisfies what the government thought was appropriate punishment. It does not mean I have to do business with them.
You discriminate too. We all do. You check credit? Discriminating against people with poor credit! Checking job status. Discriminating against people who have an under the table job or no job! Check bank statements? Discriminating against poor people and illegals who cannot get a bank account! You're willing to take some risks, but not others. That's discrimination!
As for statistics on wrongful imprisonment, a quick search comes up with numerous sources in the 2%-5% range. Nothing comes even close to the 25% stat that you are saying.
I'm also not sure why you are listing "lots of felons for weed". Are you including these people in your 25%? You know how people don't get convicted of a felony for weed? They don't deal in it regardless of their personal beliefs as to whether it should be legal or not.
@Mitch Coluzzi is on point here. As investors, it's in our best interest to come up with systems for making decisions rather than going with our gut. In this case a good system should help you reduce the risk of bringing in costly tenants. Communicating, applying, and documenting that system should help reduce the liabilities associated with possible discrimination issues.
@Shayna Hatcher I have had two tenants in the past with felonies from years back. It didn’t justify to me who they were today. I took a chance and rented to both of them. First tenant rented for 4 years and the other tenant right before him rented for almost 5 years. I never held their felonies against them and they were pretty significant charges and the jail time they had did many years back. I respected the fact it was one of the first things disclosed to me when we met, when most I believe would lie just to have a place to live. Again, I took a chance!
Overall, both cleaned up their lives and pasts, both were in construction unions in NYC and made great salaries doing so to cover rent, always kept their apartment clean and around the property maintained when wasn’t even in their lease. But, more importantly they were two of the BEST tenants I think ever had. I have had more destruction and stress with tenants who have never even had a speeding ticket then I did with these two tenants who most people wouldn’t even consider them to be their tenants.
Moral is, you can do all the background checks, credit checks, look at pay stubs and accounts till you think you found the golden tenant from heaven. Although, reality is with all of the information you thought would score you the best tenant, could be so far from who they really are and who you just rented to, all based on documents you spent hours looking over. You will never really know who you rent your property to until you actually rent it to them, because their is no background check for double personalities, hidden anger issues, spiteful intentions, or who someone becomes when there angry or upset.
I had another tenant, a woman with an amazing job, high education, credit better then mine, was very clean, we knew mutual people in the neighborhood, the worst ticket she had was a parking meter ticket..Anyways, I thought I found the greatest tenant in town. That was until it was time for her to move, I had decided to sell b/c the market was in my favor. Well, needless to say she wasn’t that happy and didn’t want to move after 3 years and turned into the devil tenant.
Her clean criminal background check didn’t s help her spitefully from stop her paying rent. Two to three months right before she had to leave her amazing job didn’t stop my electric bill from being so unusually high my electric company even contacted me to have my home checked out by a professional electrician for anything faulty. Her 740 credit score didn’t stop her from avoiding my phone calls and cursing me out every time we spoke, her dual masters degree didn’t stop the filth she intentionally put outside my house with cigarette packs and junk all over the front yard. Yup!! That was when I realized she was the best tenant on paper and in all my background checks, but one of the worst tenants till this day in person.
It depends.. If you have other applicants to pick from I would probably pass. If you have no applicants or if your Property is in D or C- type of neighborhood I would look at all options.
@Angie Williams brought up some excellent points, even if you found an applicant with no felonies & excellent credit score w great job they can still be a nightmare tenant so you won't know until they are in your property. The chances are much less in that scenario but there's no guarantees.
If you are considering these applicant you need to do more due diligence, confirm their story about house fire is true and wasn't cause by their negligence. Speak to their previous landlord if possible.
@Shayna Hatcher. Tread carefully. Denying a potential applicant based on factors not related their financial capacity could be deemed discriminatory. Prudent to not take application and simply show them the Home. If after viewing the Home they request an application, provide to them and outline your requirements. I presume current and previous addresses are on your application, which you could then verify their claim.
When people see felony they react and panic. The first thing to do is have this criteria defined, not only for your own sanity but for fair housing laws. Do you accept felons? If so, non violent and not involving theft? How much time should have to pass before the conviction? Are they employed now and do they have good job references and good credit - basically all the usual stuff. Accepting a felon or not is a deep issue to dig into. Develop that criteria and stick with it, never deviate, and defining this will keep you out of trouble in more ways than a risky tenant.
In this case, the house fire could have happened, but my first reaction would be that it's a story - that in itself is a reason to pass. The last felony was only 4 years ago, and there were 20 years between. Could he have been good at not getting caught? My point is it's part of our wiring to be suspicious, it's a survival mechanism and that's good. It's also in our nature to want to help.
This is why you need to set those guidelines. So you don't have to figure out whether you can be objective and resist that human urge to want to help. Protect yourself with that criteria
If you are in a stable market and are confident your house will rent soon, maybe now is the time you will consider whether you are going to accept felons and the rules around that. If you are not in a D or F market, if one out of 5 people aren't a felon, stick to the demographic - your place will rent
In any situation, have the guidelines, and always get all the facts.
You are correct to seek advice with all of the red flags. You mentioned meeting up with them to get a “feel”. I recently ignored the red flags on a tenant and even went over to their house to get a “feel” and found there house be cleaned and I felt it would be alright to allow them to move to my rental. Fast forward five months and they are now moving out after going through the eviction process. So politely pass....
@Account Closed pointed out, the type of the felonies is critical information. If you are going to consider them, you want to know the situation. Of course be aware they will generally try to down play the severity. The criminal justice system is insanely unfair and if you do give someone a break who has had a tough time, they may reward you with loyalty. On the flip side if they are a criminal who has not learned their lesson, they will take whatever they can from you and not feel an ounce of remorse.
3. When you say "see how I feel when I meet them" that is a major mistake. I have met people who seemed amazingly nice and genuine, but were total liars. The best scammers will easily get past your "gut feeling". Rent based on facts like income, rental history, credit history, criminal history. Your gut should be telling you to run already and it is not, so hopefully you see the problem.
4. The home fire story could easily be a lie. I once had a family pull up to a house showing driving a U-Haul truck and wanted to move in that day. They had a similar story that their old place had a fire and they were staying in a hotel. I checked their Facebook page and turned out they were relocating from out of state. Deeper checking revealed false previous addresses. A year later I found out they were scammers, who did $15,000 damage to another landlords property. The fire story could be legitimate, but in my experience "move ASAP" is often a red flag.
When I first became a landlord, I was most scared of vacancy. After being a landlord for a few years, I learned the only thing worse than vacancy is renting to a bad tenant. The potential for loss of rent and damages could be way worse than the small price of vacancy. Tenant placement is the most important job a landlord has.
I agree, not all felonies are created equal, but having said that the fact that his second one was 5 years ago makes you wonder what it was for and how many times he did not get caught.
If it was me, I would hard pass, just to sleep better at night
Hear me out for a moment. This country has the toughest regulations when it comes to Equal Housing Opportunity for the most part, except when it comes to convicted felons. Matter of fact, felons are probably the most discriminated against group in this country without any recourse or major advocacy.
There are over 2 million Americans with criminal convictions and we have the highest arrest and conviction rate among children of any first world country.
This for the most part has to do with this country's history of institutional and blatant racism. I personally think it's disgusting when a landlord automatically disqualifies a potential tenant based on a conviction. With the exception of child molestation and rapist because that is a whole different level.
Now, as investors we have to mitigate our risks. Would I give a felon a chance, 100% However, 2014 is too new but I would have to know the details. It could have been driving with a suspended license or any number of driving violations. That's considerable for me because I understand the obstacles different demographics face in this country. Now...drug related from 2014, that's a definite NOT. Because at some point those drugs are coming in the home.
The fire, that is one strike, no discussion. 2 strikes your out. No need to take unnecessary gambles.
Find out the details of the 2014 incident and be sure the house arrest, tether thingy is related to that case.
Don't automatically disqualify someone without knowing the circumstances of the matter. And verifying it.
Because there are a lot of bad high risk people out here without criminal records who could become that "nightmare tenant" in any instant.
. . . Because there are a lot of bad high risk people out here without criminal records who could become that "nightmare tenant" in any instant. . . .
There's the possibility for good people to go bad at any age. In a recent case in Northwest Florida, an 86-year-old woman suffering from dementia and depression was accused of murdering her 89-year-old husband with her walking cane. The state determined she is unfit to stand trial anytime soon because she doesn't have the capacity to understand the charges against her. Situation awareness ("stranger danger" and realizing statistically, you are more likely to be murdered by someone you know than by a complete stranger) should keep people on their toes and alert.
Red flags yes, but a fire at their previous address is easily verified by checking public records, calling the property owner/landlord or driving by the place.
As for felonies, many great men have made mistakes and even more have not made a mistake and have been caught in beauracratic red tape.
J Walking is damn near a felony, so perhaps simply understanding the convictions would help.
All this can be done without giving them a tour. Ask for the information and ask for proof and keep operating as normal. If they come up with proof and it is a justifiable situation, then you are good. (assuming they meet all requirements).
Being a landlord does take its toll on your humanity but...some people deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I'm a peon. I can't take a chance on felons, even though they, in many cases may be a better bet than some the losers with which I've had to deal. My published criteria clearly state that I can't consider anyone with felonies in past 10 years. The example of one with a felony 20 years later is disheartening. Really, after that long? Oh, and my published criteria state that any possible exceptions will certainly include a higher security deposit. We can do that in MN, at least as I recall my training on state and local laws.
@Hutcherson Yearwood You're kidding right? Sorry I don't know you. Maybe you are. Otherwise, there's a whole pile of considerations before you take such a risk, as all the other comments indicate. She's renting a house. I can't see how anyone outside a C class apartment building could reasonably take a chance on someone like that. It is a very serious matter because it could really cause a world of problems for the poster of the question.
@Shayna Hatcher, I don't know what you should do because every situation is case by case. To pre-judge everyone is prejudice. So, I'm glad you're at least giving this family, who has been honest upfront, a chance to meet with you. Good luck!