I need advice on our rental portfolio! Please help!

I need advice on our rental portfolio! Please help!

Rental Property Investor · Redmond, WA · Member since 2012 · 15 posts · 6 votes

Hi all - 

I need some help!  My wife and I are real estate investors - we own three properties and none of them are living up to our expectations.  We have been putting a ton of our own money into the properties to keep them going, but at this point there is no more money to keep them afloat, so we need answers.   The only option we can see is to sell them all, but I wanted to post on here to see if there was any advice or options that we haven't thought of yet.  We do not want to make an emotional decision, but we seem to be painted into a corner with our finances.  

Property 1: 4plex (the best performing property we have).  Generally gives us a few hundred dollars per month after paying the mortgage, but we have probably about $100k in equity at this point.  We could refi and get some of the cash out, but that would remove any of the cashflow we have currently, which doesn't seem to make sense. 

Property 2: 24 unit apartment complex.  The numbers when we purchased look good, but we are still not realizing the profit we expected and the expenses seem so high each month.  The managers keep telling us that we'll get to the profit soon, but month after month is doesn't materialize.  I don't believe they are scamming us, but yet we continue to have to dig into our own pockets to cover part of the mortgage. If we sell, there is a little bit of equity here, but not a ton.

Property 3: Hardest property we own. 11 unit apartment complex.  Again - the numbers looked good when we purchased, but again- after years of owning it, it is still not performing and we rarely get any money from the property to even pay the mortgage out of, so it is ALL coming out of our pocket!  We just got rid of a bad tenant and the managers say the property is stabilizing, but it could be a few months yet before we start getting paid.  If we sell, there is a little bit of equity here, but not a ton.

So question-  would you sell one? All?  Any other options that you can think of? What kind of professional can give us advice on this? We are talking to a financial planner this week, but of course they are going to be more interested in selling us on stocks, etc.

Thanks, all!

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Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 435 posts · 421 votes
7y

I just looked at your past posts.  I see you are in Washington State, and that at least one of these properties is in Ohio.  I want to cry when I see that you have taken lots of classes and read lots of books (at what cost?), that have persuaded you to buy apartment complexes far away from you, that aren't making you money.  Your opening post should be required reading for anyone who's thinking about buying rental real estate.  The first rule of real estate for poor shnooks like us is,  buy within 20 minutes of where you live, so that you can keep a close eye on everything yourself.  

The only reason that we got into this business is that my husband can fix almost anything himself., and likes to design and do renovations - himself, with maybe a young guy assistant or two.  He is like a carpenter/electrician/plumber/HVAC guy/social worker all rolled into one.  We search for properties together, negotiate deals together, I screen tenants over the phone, he shows, we discuss how to manage problems together, he fixes. Yes, we use licensed tradespeople appropriately when we need to, but they're all people who we found through word of mouth and who don't charge a lot.  I spend many hours researching real estate online, but I really enjoy doing that.  I also work in healthcare, and earned the money to buy the properties.  We've been doing it now for about 9 years or so, started small, slowly adding to our portfolio, buying for cash.  We've turned about half a million into a portfolio worth about 2 million over the 9 yrs, because there's been some increase in value, and it earns us a pretty good living, too, enough to live on.  We NEVER took a single class, and the only book I ever read was Landlording, because I heard the sample lease in it was good, although I did eventually read Rich Dad Poor Dad just cause it was a good "Ragged Dick" sort of story.  Both books were taken out  of the library, not even purchased!

You need to sell these far away properties.  You will never "turn them around" because the property management company is the only one who is ever going to make money on these.  If you don't have handyman skills, stay out of this business.  If you do, or could do the management yourself, sell all these and buy something very close to home.

Also, if you're in healthcare, consider combining real estate with what you already know, healthcare.  Maybe you should look into buying a white elephant near you, and turning it into the lowest possible level group home or "rest home", the kind that is not regulated, where you house people who are on SSI.  These are homes for people who don't require true nursing care, they just need a little supervision.  This might be your niche, that you can do better than most because you know the healthcare side of things.

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  • Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    Process of selection. Have to see the details but I'm guessing you purchased the wrong properties or used the wrong lending product.  Also understanding you drastically cut into your numbers with the management company. Not saying it is wrong to use them but you simply can't afford it at this time. What method did you use to evaluate the  purchases?

    TJH . 

  • Steve O.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · West Caldwell, NJ · Member since 2019 · 104 posts · 65 votes
    7y

    It seems to me you’ve invested in properties based on advise rather than knowing the true numbers.  How do you not know your numbers? This is property investing 101.

  • Rental Property Investor · Wooster, OH · Member since 2014 · 72 posts · 41 votes
    7y

    @Jesse K.

    Hey Jesse, It's hard to say for sure without seeing the numbers on each property. I'm in Ohio in the Akron/Cleveland area so if I can be of any help let me know.

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2018 · 1 post · 1 vote
    7y

    @Jesse K.

    First step : kick out your actual property management !!!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Brookhaven, MS · Member since 2017 · 186 posts · 108 votes
    7y

    Just based on your notes, I'd sell them all and then once the smoke clears you can invest again in something else if you desire. Just my 2 cents worth and they say advice is worth what you pay for it.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    I recommend BP podcast #317. I just watched it yesterday and I think the guru on there could really help you. One thing the guru said that rings in my mind concerning your situation, is you need to have a property manager you could trust with your kids.

  • Investor · Murfreesboro, TN · Member since 2013 · 430 posts · 178 votes
    7y

    @Jesse K. Sorry to head this. Each property will have its own issue and result you need to come to. A lot of great advice about getting super involved with what is happening to determine the real story and that’s where I would go to. I have 150+ units out of state and we have a call once a week once stabilized but during the takeover process we are actively involved creating the plan. Confirming with management that they feel confident they can execute and adjusting as need be throughout. I think you need to see where corrections need to be made and quickly pivot accordingly. As you know cash reserves are very important and larger buildings take time to implement a plan.

  • Rental Property Investor · NC · Member since 2018 · 776 posts · 776 votes
    7y

    @Jesse Kreun Sorry you have to go through this man. Underperforming properties can really put you under quick so I would do some quick planning to see which ones to sell off first. Not sure how much in the red you are. At this point, you have to worry about putting food on the table. I think you need a new property manager. A property or two may be salvageable if you can get some good management. Are these properties older or in a bad area? That may justify some of the expenses being that high. There will always be operating expenses but it shouldn't be overwhelming high for that many years.

  • Investor · Hendersonville, NC · Member since 2013 · 754 posts · 281 votes
    7y

    To the OP, wow you got some great advice here. Kudos for speaking the truth about your situation. It's actually my nightmare - to have numerous properties and either be unhappy with the performance or the management, or both. I've seen a thing or two in my 9 years, and in fact today I am still wrestling with a condo I bought in 2009 - my first home - which, like most of the damned condo complexes by the beach here in the Lowcountry of South Carolina, has construction defects. We are facing a $35,000 special assessment in the next month or two. And if you ever listen to Rod Khleif's podcast, he makes clear how he got his "butt kicked" (his phrase) in 2008, but lived to fight another day. 

    Finally I will say this. Once I was in a property I was kinda developing (more or less just putting in dirt roads, clearing forest, etc). My soon-to-be wife was not going to live there (this was not far from Summerville, SC). So I decided to sell it. I purchased it for $200k and had a buyer on the hook for $175k minus sales costs. It was a beating. The realtor said to me, "You know, I was in a pickle once. I had a loser of a property. I decided to just loose it on the market and wash my hands of it. In the end, it was a bit of capital, and it was a lesson learned. I went on to have ten rentals because I freed up some capital and started investing more wisely." 

    In your future my friend will be the decision: rethink and reposition and improve what you've got, or let them go in what is now a decent market, and start out anew, better this time. 
    Best to you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Santa Rosa Beach, FL · Member since 2018 · 182 posts · 63 votes
    7y

    There’s a lot of sage advice and at least one less than constructive admonishment here, but your choices seem to be simple, dig into the numbers and figure out the problem or sell to recover what you can.

    Simply selling may be the easier way out, and may be the best course of action, but you won’t learn as much. You may even decide that this experience has turned you off to real estate investing altogether.

    However, rolling up your sleeves, digging into the numbers, visiting your properties, meeting with your PM and other PMs, knowing the numbers, and knowing the market will give you a greater understanding of how this business works. You’ll know exactly why your properties perform the way they do and how you can effect their performance. If treated like the learning experience it could be may be the catalyst that propels you and your wife into a new echelon of real estate investing.

    You may still decide that selling is the right answer, but you’ll know why. I’m originally from Akron and invest there. I’d love to know more about where your rentals are and the numbers behind them.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Mark Fries:

    @Karen F. @Dennis M.

    Wow...best replies I have read in a longtime...2000% accurate...this guy has unfortunately jumped on the BRRRR multifamily long distance bandwagon....and the wheels are falling off....I fear we will see MANY of these posts in the coming 12 months as people start seeing the numbers really dont work as those webinars so easily declared....

    yup BRRR while a nice tool for your tool box but trying to do it remotely is hugely risky. I know BP wrote a book on it and in theory thats all great and all.. but in reality very tough and very risky.

    I suspect these were paper tigers.. IE looked great on paper.. but C class or worse Maybe.. and as others stated generally speaking you need to self manage C class.. its a JOB your job is managing  your portfolio top to bottom.. just like if you own a car agency you go to work every day.. or a subway shop or any number of small business's 

    A and B class in almost all metros will be small yeild 3 4 mabye 5 cap.. but its sustainable. 

    its the reaching for the out of area 8 to 12 caps that become negative CAPS..    Sell move on.

    And as Karen mentioned above if this person is in health care i think they would be well suited to health hack his offices.. medical are great rentals.

  • Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    I think it's important to note that while the majority of the problem may be poor property management, it's also completely possible that none of the problem is the property management. Maybe these units had tons of deferred maintenance and the management company is making a needed and legitimate effort to get these apartments back into decent condition. That's why I think the previous suggestions by several posters to do some analysis to find out what the problems are is most likely the best action to take right now before "firing" the property management or selling. If you replace management and the previous issue was correcting deferred maintenance, the second managers are going to show a better performance than the first even if they are treating things exactly the same. So you won't really have any data that's meaningful.

  • All Over, USA · Member since 2017 · 689 posts · 756 votes
    7y

    First post on BP that speaks some truth about multi-family investments. Took me a few years to find one...

    As someone in healthcare, ain’t nobody got time for that.

    For a high W2 income, go to should be Class A, or B, buy and forget. Ground work is finding the right PM, well in advance. Don’t go for top dollar rents every time. Price it for maximum number applications and non-a$$hat tenants. Class A & B -> you know they got the moneys.

    Accumulate rentals with hard earned discretionary income, down payments, or HELOCs from appreciation and equity pay down by tenants.

    Very different strategy than most but it keeps you sane so you can focus on accumulating properties by leveraging that high W2.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    Look at ways to increase NOI. The biggest things I recommend clients is 1) Add in unit laundry to every unit. This is very cheap to do and atleast in the Chicago north side market will increase rents $100-200 per unit which adds up 2) HVAC not sure if any of the buildings are on boiler systems but by switching to individual tenant paid furnaces will greatly increase NOI 3) Shop property management. These fees are negotiable as someone else mentioned above if at 10% try to get to 8%, etc. Checking Yelp is a good way to tell if you have a good property manager some managers are really bad and seem nice in person to landlords but are awful at attracting/retaining paying tenants.

  • Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 12 votes
    7y

    @Jesse Kreun

    Thank you for your story and questions. There's some interesting advice here. I agree with those suggesting digging into the numbers - look at each quarter, then compare them. Is there a quarter that has high turnover or unusually higher expenses? Then compare them year over year - are the numbers generally all the same? If so, either they are not the deals you thought they were or the property management needs tweaking.

    Have you tried running these properties through the calculators here on BP? That might give you some insight into which property(-ies) to consider keeping and working on further, and which might just not be good deals. 

    Hopefully, you can turn at least one around, then find better deals going forward.

  • Burnaby, BC · Member since 2017 · 282 posts · 268 votes
    7y

    Financial planners won't help you out as it sounds like you already know. Chances are they are not knowledgeable enough about this stuff as you know.

    Property 1 sounds like its doiong okay.

    Property 2 - you really need to get a better understanding of the financial analysis. The managers - are these the property managers?  The bigger question is why are the numbers not so high? Are a lot of things breaking and need repairs?  Sounds like the issue started from not grasping the financials well enough before purchasing.

    It is hard to give advice on this without more information and background on why expenses are high and why revenues are not covering the cost.

    Property 3 - Same issues as property 2

    Sometimes cutting your losses is the best option but it seems like you really need to get a better understanding of the financials. You should be able to tell us why the expenses are higher than you predicted and when they would expect to go down or why the revenues should be rising etc.

    The most important part of real estate is buying the right property and doing your due diligence on the numbers and I like to use conservative ones so that in the event things go south you're still ready and prepared. If your analysis is off, you will inevitably lose money

  • Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 133 posts · 53 votes
    7y

    @Jesse Kreun im curious, say if property 1 is 400K and you paid down 100K, would it be possible to refinance the remaining 300K into a 30 fix rate mortgage in order to give you an increase in cash flow? 

    Property 2 i think you should get into the nitty and gritty of what all happening and like everyone else says check out the property manager and see what's going on

    Property 3 sounds like something you should sales since it held onto it for a few years and did not receive much income from it. possible looking into the 80/20 rule when dealing with this property as it was taking so much of your time and resources. 

    best of luck!

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Karen F.:
     I did eventually read Rich Dad Poor Dad just cause it was a good "Ragged Dick" sort of story.

    My english is not good, what is this ragged dick you speak of

  • Cary, NC · Member since 2011 · 34 posts · 16 votes
    7y

    Tighten things up operationally. By that I mean meet with your property managers and review their operations. Big difference between investing and managing.  Might be time to get back to basics:

    1. People: Do you have the right team in place? If not, make changes. These are the most important and most difficult decision to consider. You need effective management to get results.  
    2. Product: What is the condition of the property? Is it in-line with your competition? Because it needs to look and feel superior to them in order to get the revenues you want. 
    3. Price: Where does your property stand in the marketplace? Can you increase rents? If not, get your controllable expenses under lockdown. Every dollar counts.  
    4. Promotion: If you have vacancy, it's killing you. What are you doing to get your units leased? Make sure you advertising is creative and effective. 

    If you're familiar with Rich Dad Poor Dad then I recommend their book on property management: https://www.amazon.com/Rich-Dads-Advisors-Property...

    Happy to help from afar. 

    Regards,
    Matt

  • DE · Member since 2019 · 31 posts · 21 votes
    7y

    I would not sell! 

    Find a partner to bring in to the deal that has some cash and more management and REI experience in multi-family, you might give a little bitt of equity away but it sounds to me with a little management you have some winning properties there. don't bail, a lot of people stop just inches from the top because it looks bleak.

  • Temecula, CA · Member since 2016 · 75 posts · 38 votes
    7y

    @Tom Antonio Great advice. I was in the red on a sfh 3 months ago and my PM and REA told me to sell as -is and take the loss. Instead I worked my butt off to get the house fixed. Spent 5k and just had an offer that will put me in the green offer is 40k higher than what PM and rea said I would get. This was done remotely as house is out of state.

  • Attorney · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 535 posts · 389 votes
    7y

    Without knowing much more, I think you're over leveraged and jumped on the all debt no equity train too quickly. It's like a pyramid of debt that will crumble because the excess expenses on one of those large units may not be able to be covered by the rest of the portfolio. When you have a mortgage, that PITI is going to slurp up most of the gross income you pull in without even looking at other factors like vacancy, capex, and repairs. Because your gross income is being slurped up, it can dip into your personal funds. A general solution to this is to have a mixed portfolio with unleveraged properties to cover those excess expenses.

    Also consider the quality of the neighborhood you invested in, because if it is poor, you may have permanent costs associated with vacancy, etc. The neighborhood isn't going to recover just because you  may have rehabbed your apartment. Moreover, you should also consider any negligence in repairs - you want to tighten up the screws because you're already bleeding most of your income to your creditors. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 137 posts · 80 votes
    7y

    @Jesse K. Thanks for sharing your story. There should be more like this so other investors can learn.  

    You have a few options but they are going to require time and money.  Due to your current situation, you are low on capital so that does not leave you money.  The easiest solution is to stop the bleeding and sell.  I would start with the lowest performing asset.  Then reevaluate your position.  If you are able to have enough capital and time then you could try to save property 2.  If you are still loosing too much capital, I would sell property 2, reevaluate and if needed sell the 4 plex last.  Afterward, determine what worked well for you and what did not.   Good luck my fellow investor, please keep us updated on what you decided to do next.  

  • Justin R.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · San Anselmo · Member since 2015 · 659 posts · 600 votes
    7y

    I know everyone is trying to help by giving you advice, but there is a lot of one paragraph answers "telling" you what you need to do. Don't let anyone tell you that you cannot invest from afar. I invest predominantly out of state and had success just like countless others. You just NEED to build a quality team. A quality team starts with a rockstar property manager.

    Where is your money going? Is it going to BS fees like others have mentioned, or is it going into making it a better property?

    Almost every one of my properties operated in the red the first year to year and a half of ownership (Disclaimer; I invest in numerous 1-6 unit properties for the most part). This is typical as you clean up the mess the sellers left. If you buy a property that is "value add" it inherently has deferred maintenance, bad management, bad tenants, etc. It costs money to conduct this stage, but SHOULD have been accounted for during your underwriting phase.

    Don't just sell because they are operating in the red and happen to be out of state. Sell because they have NO potential to perform and you have no quality PMs in the areas. For all we know though, you could have taken an underperforming property and in the last XXX months turned them into a performing high quality assets. 

    Best of luck!!

  • Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    7y

    @Karen F.Very good!

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