Tenants destroyed my place. I kept deposit but what else can I do
Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 6 votes
Tenants destroyed my place. I kept deposit but what else can I do
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"Is there an attorney known for dealing with landlords and tenant disputes? I know getting money from them will be a far cry, but I would like to tie them up in some legal dispute to some degree."
I think reaching out to a landlord/tenant lawyer is a good move. But I don't quite understand your thinking. These folks just cost you thousands of dollars in damage, and now you want to spend more of your own money, just to spite them, by tying them up in court? That seems like more cost and more headache on your part with no actual return.
It is easy for me to sit here, and difficult for you to sit there, and say that you shouldn't go after them. But look at this purely as a financial action -- would you spend more money to gain no return? I wouldn't.
My last investment property was basically ruined by my last tenant, but I know most of that fault was mine -- I had hardwood floors, I let them bring their pit-mix in because I was desperate for a tenant, they barely made the financial requirement, and started exhibiting weird behavior about 1.5 years in. One of the tenants lost their job, and they stopped being responsive, stopped paying rent on time, care of the property quickly declined, care of the dog quickly declined, etc. Hindsight is 20/20, but some of these things should have been on my radar from the get-go. Now why would I go after THEM for damage to my floors and a "lingering poop smell" when really, they had no money to their name and I'm just as much at fault for bringing in bad tenants and not taking care of this more quickly and judiciously.
If you look at this problem as you are the cause, which you should, then I think you would realize this is a great learning lesson. Still, go through the process, call a landlord/tenant lawyer in your area and discuss it with them. They will advise you further as to your options. Then I would strongly evaluate your evaluation criteria. I now go to my prospective tenant's current address and take stock of the area as much as I can. I try to find any red flags of poor upkeep/neglect, and talk to the existing landlord as well. And, try and glean information as they visit you for a showing
- Go outside and try and see their transportation. If they have a car, peek into it if you can. See if its filled with trash.
- Judge the book by its cover -- are they wearing clothes that look like they haven't been washed, have a weird odor, seem disheveled? Probably the same in their home.
- Meet everyone on the lease, so ask who else will be on it. One person can destroy everyone's life...trust me. If one person doesn't seem right, I wouldn't rent to them.
- Get them talking. Let them give you as much information as you can. I had a potential renter who I walked through, seemed all straightforward, and then she asked about pets. I said oh, tell me about your pets. Started with a dog. Then two cats. Then a fish. Then a parakeet. Oh, and their two lizards. Then a "is that ok with you?" Instead of saying "only small dogs and cats", try to get to know them. Open ended questions will get people talking. Or, will show you people who are trying to hide something.
These are soft skills that you can't develop in Excel, or read in a book -- you've got to know how to read people and glean as much information as you can based on how they present themselves and what they say or don't say. Then cross reference that with their application form and your due diligence.
Good luck with this, and keep us posted.
30 Replies
- Investor · Topeka, KS · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
Find an attorney in your area that works with landlords. They can ensure you go through the proper process. Then, you will likely, get a collections agency/attorney and let them try to collect.
In most cases you will collect $0, but you at least want to ding their credit so that if they ever want to clean it up they will need to reach out.
It will become pretty turn key for you.
- Rental Property Investor · RI · Member since 2018 · 24 posts · 9 votes7y
I haven't had to deal with this (yet, hopefully never). But the first thing that come to mind is small claims court. Depending on your location it might be something to look into. **I am not a lawyer**
I would reach out to a lawyer in your area and get an idea what your options are. Best of luck to you.
"Is there an attorney known for dealing with landlords and tenant disputes? I know getting money from them will be a far cry, but I would like to tie them up in some legal dispute to some degree."
I think reaching out to a landlord/tenant lawyer is a good move. But I don't quite understand your thinking. These folks just cost you thousands of dollars in damage, and now you want to spend more of your own money, just to spite them, by tying them up in court? That seems like more cost and more headache on your part with no actual return.
It is easy for me to sit here, and difficult for you to sit there, and say that you shouldn't go after them. But look at this purely as a financial action -- would you spend more money to gain no return? I wouldn't.
My last investment property was basically ruined by my last tenant, but I know most of that fault was mine -- I had hardwood floors, I let them bring their pit-mix in because I was desperate for a tenant, they barely made the financial requirement, and started exhibiting weird behavior about 1.5 years in. One of the tenants lost their job, and they stopped being responsive, stopped paying rent on time, care of the property quickly declined, care of the dog quickly declined, etc. Hindsight is 20/20, but some of these things should have been on my radar from the get-go. Now why would I go after THEM for damage to my floors and a "lingering poop smell" when really, they had no money to their name and I'm just as much at fault for bringing in bad tenants and not taking care of this more quickly and judiciously.
If you look at this problem as you are the cause, which you should, then I think you would realize this is a great learning lesson. Still, go through the process, call a landlord/tenant lawyer in your area and discuss it with them. They will advise you further as to your options. Then I would strongly evaluate your evaluation criteria. I now go to my prospective tenant's current address and take stock of the area as much as I can. I try to find any red flags of poor upkeep/neglect, and talk to the existing landlord as well. And, try and glean information as they visit you for a showing
- Go outside and try and see their transportation. If they have a car, peek into it if you can. See if its filled with trash.
- Judge the book by its cover -- are they wearing clothes that look like they haven't been washed, have a weird odor, seem disheveled? Probably the same in their home.
- Meet everyone on the lease, so ask who else will be on it. One person can destroy everyone's life...trust me. If one person doesn't seem right, I wouldn't rent to them.
- Get them talking. Let them give you as much information as you can. I had a potential renter who I walked through, seemed all straightforward, and then she asked about pets. I said oh, tell me about your pets. Started with a dog. Then two cats. Then a fish. Then a parakeet. Oh, and their two lizards. Then a "is that ok with you?" Instead of saying "only small dogs and cats", try to get to know them. Open ended questions will get people talking. Or, will show you people who are trying to hide something.
These are soft skills that you can't develop in Excel, or read in a book -- you've got to know how to read people and glean as much information as you can based on how they present themselves and what they say or don't say. Then cross reference that with their application form and your due diligence.
Good luck with this, and keep us posted.
- Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 6 votes7y
Jeo P.
I agree on spending more money. But I have heard some attorneys will pick it up and take a porting or half of anything collected. Didn't know if there was a national company that specialized it and had good systems in place where I could hand them the information and they file it.
I'm not looking to spend a ton more money but I would spend some. This was not wear and tear like some of the situations you referenced. This was effort to cause as much damage as possible.
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
I understand that small claims court is the way to go. No lawyers required and minimal filing fees. It’ll take some of your time to prepare and be there. Then once you get a judgement against them, go to a collections agency. They usually split anything they collect (they take ~30%)
So you might get something or you might not... but at least you’re not throwing away lots of money on a lawyer.
Again -- if there is nothing to collect, what will they do? Create money out of thin air? If they can't pay their rent, chances are they aren't flowing with assets. Or maybe they are, I don't know. Seems like getting in touch with a lawyer is your best bet. I would have done it on "move out day" whenever that was, or before.
Also @Mike McCarthy that probably isn't the best advice; again these could be professional tenants and depending on landlord-tenant laws, puts the onus on Justin to gather all required materials. Maybe he has his stuff together, maybe he doesn't, but its definitely more time on his end.
Again, these are questions that I might spend 15-30 minutes speaking with a lawyer talking about. A hundred or two hundred dollars here ostensibly is money well spent; seemingly if its not done, OP is repeating similar mistakes made when tenant was brought on. It'll be a never ending cycle.
@Justin Wood Find their address using a third party website like peoplefinder and file a small claims lawsuit in the jurisdiction/county that they live. There are fillable forms at the courthouse for these "complaints," very easy and it's cheap $100-200. The clerks at the courthouse are helpful and will answer most of your questions. This is an option if your tenants are local. If your tenants move far away, you'll have no choice but to hire an attorney to file the lawsuit for you. Could cost your $1500-2000. Most lawyers have access to a database/search engine where they can track people down.
- Real Estate Broker · Auburn, WA · Member since 2015 · 151 posts · 106 votes7y
@Justin Wood
1/ look into security laws as well as safety regulations in your state.
2/ change your leases so you are able to inspect the property each month or two months for safety purposes!
3/ Do physical inspections on the property. Once you find an issue, give tenants notice to repair or cure the problem...
4/ Normal wear & tear is an assumption but, outward destruction is a crime... you can have tenants removed by law, for destruction of property! I’ve done this myself...
Let your state laws protect your investment by being pro-active with your tenants... good luck
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Justin Wood:
Jeo P.
I agree on spending more money. But I have heard some attorneys will pick it up and take a porting or half of anything collected. Didn't know if there was a national company that specialized it and had good systems in place where I could hand them the information and they file it.
I'm not looking to spend a ton more money but I would spend some. This was not wear and tear like some of the situations you referenced. This was effort to cause as much damage as possible.
not an attorney on the planet would take the case as you described on for a contingent fee. or they would have to be the least bright attorney on the planet.. you suffered a loss.. I know some landlords will get the judgement.. and they are generally good for 10 years.
what a lot of professionals that deal in this type of debt ( judgements) they collect them and then at 9 years they skip trace them by then the folks are usually up and running again and you garnish them.
- Portland, OR · Member since 2017 · 12 posts · 6 votes7y
@Justin Wood this doesn't help much now but in the future requiring the tenant to have rental insurance that covers $100k in damages. It's a requirement where I'm from in the state of Oregon, it's cheap, it costs me $18 a month as a tenant.
I spend about 5 minutes crying in a corner and cursing the cruel world....and then I wipe away the tears and start making a list of things to fix, and then I fix them as fast as possible and rent the unit to better people.
It totally sucks, but as others have pointed out, you have very little recourse and your limited time is better spent getting your investment whole again. also, adding more units to your mix so that when it happens again, it's only one of dozens or hundreds of units and therefore has less financial impact on your bottom line.
Our area lawyer charges $700-$800 ( 2 hour) listening to your sad experience. No free consultation here as it happens to often.
Small Claim court. If they do not show up you win the case. Now a tricky part court will not help you to recover the judgement. There are collection agencies that tries to negotiate winning case. They get a cut of what they can collect.
Those who live inside a mailbox there is no way to get them coming out hand you $10K. My guess is the court battle only shows on their record. A bankruptcy claim wipes out all the debts.
- Real Estate Entrepreneur · Owasso, OK · Member since 2015 · 220 posts · 154 votes7y
@Justin Wood
small claims court is your best bet.
They won't show
You'll get the judgement by default
You probably won't get paid but if they have wages you can garnish
At least then it goes on their record so other landlords can be protected
- North Royalton, OH · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 48 votes7y
@Justin Wood
Most likely you won’t collect any money from these tenants but you could 1099 them. let the IRS go after them.
- Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 6 votes7y
@Bernardino Graziano have you ever done that before? Do you know the process?
- North Royalton, OH · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 48 votes7y
@Justin Wood
Fortunately I never had to do it but I know people who did it. I would recommend to talk to your CPA about it.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes7y
Take them to court , win you get a judgement . Sure they will be hard to collect from , but sometime in the future , they may hit the lottery , get a real job , or come into some money . now lets say they inherit a home and sell it , the state usually checks to see if they have any judgements recorded . If so they pay them off first before they see a dime . Second , it will be on their record at the court houses , and when another landlord searches they will see a judgement and the eviction . Now 8 years later , you may see your money with interest
Agree very unlikely you will ever see a dime...... but are we at the point that people in general are totally absolved of any accountability in life? And we put the full blame on ourselves for others actions?
Yeah its a learning experience on screening and periodic inspections of the property etc, but YOU didn't trash the place
What about the next landlord?
They may have trashed the last place too and the landlord just let them walk away.....so why not keep doing it?....no consequences at all....why not.....
Yes its the hard way, and yes it's gonna cost you some time and $$, but sometimes that's what it takes to do the right thing and force people to face some accountability and look out for the next guy.
I personally would not totally let this go..... yes I'm gonna lose more $$, so I would be realistic on how much I'm going to invest in doing the right thing....but at the end of the day I can live with that.....what I cant live with is knowing that the scumbags can just go on with ZERO chance of anything affecting them in the future even if the % chance of that happening is very very slim
We are talking 10k worth of damage..... not tiny $$.....so I'm less willing to "let it go because you will never see a dime back".......
I know I'll never see the $$....but the thought of the slightest chance of this coming back to haunt them is worth a little more effort and $$...but that's just me.....
Oddly enough I am smack dab in the middle of this. I had a tenant (my first tenant) destroy my rental due to her animals. It was horrible but I won't bore you with the details. Total to repair with late rents was $7100. I realize I likely will not see a dime, but I decided to go small claims anyways.
Two motivators for me in that A) I feel it's my duty to at least get a record on her report for the next landlord and B) It has been a HUGE eye opener for me to see how well i've been maintaining records.
Say what you will, but I thought I was ready to go with evidence at a moments notice. But I found out that while i'm 90% ready, there are too many loose ends i found in my methods and processes that I can now rectify going forward.
For those that haven't had to compile evidence yet I have a couple of things for you that were eye openers for me.
-Do you use text to converse with your tenants? I did, I thought it was easy, trackable, had dates, times etc...
-- Issues with this that i personally ran into: How do you actually print the texts? I had to find a special app that downloaded the texts with time stamps to print. Then I used both my regular number and google voice which. She also switched numbers multiple times, etc etc.
-Receipts for repair...
-- I have them yes, but for those with multiple properties, how often do you purchase materials for just one property? Even if you do, how do you prove that a Home Depot receipt is in reference to the property the tenant destroyed?
-photos
-- I am a huge fan of taking pictures, but somehow i didn't take new pictures between the time i remodeled the bathroom and the time it was destroyed. (it was remodeled while she was living there.
- 3 day pay or quit notices
-- Yes you may have hand delivered it and taken a picture of it taped to the door. But did you remember to scan/keep a copy for your own records?
I could go on. But these are just some of the more glaring things that I learned while going through this and I am extremely grateful that i discovered them while being a plaintiff than not finding out my shortcomings until being a defendant.
Originally posted by @Justin Wood:
@Isaac S. No tears shed. Place is already fix and rented within a few days. I don't mess around. But do want to cause them some pain that they caused me.
Justin, you are better man than me...I'm serious about the crying, at the very least I curse and scream and kick rocks, and rarely get stuff done in a few days.
I am very familiar with the desire to be the deliverer of some righteous karma to those that have wronged me. Unfortunately, I rarely get as much satisfaction as just forgetting it happened as soon as possible.
Best of luck and don't let them get to you too much.
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