Property managers aren't very active on BP forums
Austin · Member since 2015 · 149 posts · 80 votes
Property managers aren't very active on BP forums
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
6yOriginally posted by @Kalen Jordan:
I could be wrong but it feels like in general PM companies aren't very active on BP. Also one of the biggest pain points for successful rental investing seems to be PM. It seems really weird they aren't more active.
I see horrible reviews about PM companies with no response from them at all.
I'm a property manager with over 7,500 posts and about 80% of those are in the Landlord & Tenant forum. If anything, I've been on here too much. There are several other property managers that are on here regularly.
There are definitely a lot of complaints about PM, and rightly so. However, I believe Landlords have a big role to play in that because they don't educate themselves on what a good PM looks like. They take the guy with the cheapest rates or the prettiest pitch and then let the PM run their property into the ground. It's just like Landlords that complain about bad tenants but never take ownership of their screening process (or lack thereof).
A lot of property managers are amateurs that sucked at sales and decided to collect rent for an "easy" paycheck. They scrape along doing the bare minimum until something blows up and then they slink off. Those of us trying to create a true profession have to live with the results. And you don't see them on BP because they don't really have anything of value to share. Most of the good ones are too busy building their businesses to spend time sharing. I'm one of the rare ones that continues to spend time on the boards when I should be working on my new management agreement, two new employees, new web site, news article, trade show materials, and 57 other things that went neglected while I typed this response. ;)
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
28 Replies
- Real Estate Agent · Naperville, IL · Member since 2014 · 196 posts · 130 votes6y
@Kalen Jordan There are zero large PM companies that have positive reviews. That is probably by design. PM companies follow the letter of the law most of the time with almost little to no leeway. Majority of the time the tenants complaining are in the wrong but they will leave negative reviews.
That is why I manage my own and invest locally whenever possible.
- Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
There are a number of PMs that are engaged on the BP forums. There is a certain level of transparency to one's business when they post on here and interact with investors, where they frequently have to back up their policies and procedures "in writing." Certainly a good way to help the industry and/or farm business leads, but I'll bet very few of the sh***y ones would make that effort and/or expose themselves to that (constructively critical at times) feedback and discourse.
To your point - there are HUNDREDS of PMs here on BP - but they represent a very, very small percentage of their industry. And I guess the same could be said about the investors, here - as well.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes6y
@Nathan Gesner is a property manager, very active on the forums and is one of the site moderators.
District Invest Group546 Reviews - Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Kalen Jordan:
I could be wrong but it feels like in general PM companies aren't very active on BP. Also one of the biggest pain points for successful rental investing seems to be PM. It seems really weird they aren't more active.
I see horrible reviews about PM companies with no response from them at all.
I'm a property manager with over 7,500 posts and about 80% of those are in the Landlord & Tenant forum. If anything, I've been on here too much. There are several other property managers that are on here regularly.
There are definitely a lot of complaints about PM, and rightly so. However, I believe Landlords have a big role to play in that because they don't educate themselves on what a good PM looks like. They take the guy with the cheapest rates or the prettiest pitch and then let the PM run their property into the ground. It's just like Landlords that complain about bad tenants but never take ownership of their screening process (or lack thereof).
A lot of property managers are amateurs that sucked at sales and decided to collect rent for an "easy" paycheck. They scrape along doing the bare minimum until something blows up and then they slink off. Those of us trying to create a true profession have to live with the results. And you don't see them on BP because they don't really have anything of value to share. Most of the good ones are too busy building their businesses to spend time sharing. I'm one of the rare ones that continues to spend time on the boards when I should be working on my new management agreement, two new employees, new web site, news article, trade show materials, and 57 other things that went neglected while I typed this response. ;)
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Property Manager · Gary, IN · Member since 2015 · 66 posts · 60 votes6y
@Kalen Jordan. This is mostly because any mention of your company or what you do and bigger pockets deletes your post or comment and says its self promotion.
I agree with you that it would be nice to have that point of view on here but as of now that is not going to happen.
It used to be open to have good discussion and networking but in recent years it has turned into newbie questions or just informational. Or worse off a ton of negativity. What I don’t understand is if we are going to allow bigger pocket bullies and negativity then why are we not allowed to connect and offer service that is so desperately needed on this environment?? Only time will tell
- Property Manager · Plantsville, CT · Member since 2016 · 84 posts · 66 votes6y
My personal opinion is that sometimes property managers are the whipping boy of the real estate industry. We are a necessary evil. However, when matched up properly with an investor there is a great synergy. The problem is when the investor is an amateur and didn't underwrite their deal properly or don't have the cash reserves to survive a tough quarter they blame the property manager.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Tom Olson:
@Kalen Jordan. This is mostly because any mention of your company or what you do and bigger pockets deletes your post or comment and says its self promotion.
I agree with you that it would be nice to have that point of view on here but as of now that is not going to happen.
It used to be open to have good discussion and networking but in recent years it has turned into newbie questions or just informational. Or worse off a ton of negativity. What I don’t understand is if we are going to allow bigger pocket bullies and negativity then why are we not allowed to connect and offer service that is so desperately needed on this environment?? Only time will tell
Not true. You can even have your company in your signature (look at Nathan, above, just as an example). If you are complaining that you aren't allowed to say "Hey, I develop there, PM me" or offer some service outside the marketplace, then that is true. If you want to sell yourself, you have to take it to the marketplace, no exceptions.
As for the PM question: answer is that a lot of PM is just as Nathan said - amateur, low brow, sorry service providers. PM that is done well is a job like any other job, and a lot of people don't want to come talk about their job when they get off of work.
Skyline Properties - Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
Property management is one of the more difficult aspects of real estate investing that can be kind of a thankless task. Biggerpockets as a whole is typically geared more towards the mom/pop and new investors. A lot of the established PM companies kind of missed the whole "forum" phase on the internet. James Wise is also probably one of the most active posters on BP and owns a PM company.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Kalen Jordan:
I could be wrong but it feels like in general PM companies aren't very active on BP. Also one of the biggest pain points for successful rental investing seems to be PM. It seems really weird they aren't more active.
I see horrible reviews about PM companies with no response from them at all.
I am part of a lot of other Masterminds and online networking groups that are Property Management heavy. The general consensus from the Property Management community is that Bigger Pockets is anti Property Manager. I am not saying every Property Manager feels this way, but a lot of them do. There is some credence to that as there are a ton of random threads where one new investor bashes his Property Manager because he doesn't know any better and then a whole hoard of other random new investors who also have no clue jump on board and start some long Property Manager bashing. The random Property Manager bashing aside I am also not saying it's a correct assessment that Bigger Pockets is anti Property Manager. I am a Property Manager and one the 2nd most active poster here on Bigger Pockets. Being so active on the site about my Property Management experiences has brought revenue in the millions into my business. I've always been a guy that wanted to zig while others zagged though.
- Rental Property Investor · Nashua, NH · Member since 2020 · 17 posts · 15 votes6y
Lots of truth in the statements above from PMs. I spent a stint managing condo associations. There is so often a gap of knowledge between the professional PM and property owners. Property owners and tenants often don't understand what it means to keep a property running safely and within the law.
I'm not surprised there aren't many PMs posting here. There are so many tasks to deal with as a PM that finding time to post on BP would be very difficult. My portfolio consisted of 8 7-50unit associations and I usually had to work a several nights per week and a few hours on the weekend to keep up.
As far as PMs go it's a thankless job. They can be the 'whipping boy' as William Joseph said. Tenants hate them, owners get frustrated with them, and sometimes they deserve it, but often they don't. Hats off to the PMs that present and sharing knowledge on BP. And hats off to the honest ones out there that aren't able to post on BP.
- Property Manager · Gary, IN · Member since 2015 · 66 posts · 60 votes6y
@William Joseph. I completely agree. It’s actually funny. I have had to send 4 disengagement letters (the same number of tenants we have have had to evict in the last year where we placed the tenants) to owners in the last year because they didn’t want to follow our guidelines or they didn’t want pay their bills or keep there property up to safety standards or they wanted to complain about everything (I’m sorry but we will not manage for slumlords) if you are a property manager don’t put up with toxic owners just as much as you wouldn’t put up with toxic tenants. Property managers are always getting thrown under the bus by owners but if you think about it they have the worst job in the world. They have two people that they have to make happy and both of these people have the exact opposite agenda. It’s amazing to me what people expect property managers to pay for from the $75 they are being paid each month Most people are fantastic but the one in 100 can take more time and cause more hassle than the other 99 combined. Thank you for recognizing this is a problem
- Contractor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
Honestly I think PM's dont post because they are way too busy. They get plenty of business without needing to be active online.
- Rental Property Investor · Clearwater & Daytona Beach, FL · Member since 2019 · 194 posts · 197 votes6y
@Allan Smith What I was thinking as well. If I was dealing with Toilets, Tenants, and Termites all day, the last thing I would probably want to do is browse BP. Respect for the ones that do though. 👍
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Eric Mayer:
@Allan Smith What I was thinking as well. If I was dealing with Toilets, Tenants, and Termites all day, the last thing I would probably want to do is browse BP. Respect for the ones that do though. 👍
If they are smart it's part of their daily job related activities. Being on Bigger Pockets is simply content marketing and lead cultivation for those selling services in the real estate industry. So the notion that Property Manager's and other providers come to Bigger Pockets "after work" for fun doesn't make much sense. This is or at least should be work for folks selling real estate related products or services.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Tom Olson:
@Kalen Jordan. This is mostly because any mention of your company or what you do and bigger pockets deletes your post or comment and says its self promotion.
I agree with you that it would be nice to have that point of view on here but as of now that is not going to happen.
It used to be open to have good discussion and networking but in recent years it has turned into newbie questions or just informational. Or worse off a ton of negativity. What I don’t understand is if we are going to allow bigger pocket bullies and negativity then why are we not allowed to connect and offer service that is so desperately needed on this environment?? Only time will tell
Not true. You can even have your company in your signature (look at Nathan, above, just as an example). If you are complaining that you aren't allowed to say "Hey, I develop there, PM me" or offer some service outside the marketplace, then that is true. If you want to sell yourself, you have to take it to the marketplace, no exceptions.
As for the PM question: answer is that a lot of PM is just as Nathan said - amateur, low brow, sorry service providers. PM that is done well is a job like any other job, and a lot of people don't want to come talk about their job when they get off of work.
Disagree. See above post.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @James Wise:
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Tom Olson:
@Kalen Jordan. This is mostly because any mention of your company or what you do and bigger pockets deletes your post or comment and says its self promotion.
I agree with you that it would be nice to have that point of view on here but as of now that is not going to happen.
It used to be open to have good discussion and networking but in recent years it has turned into newbie questions or just informational. Or worse off a ton of negativity. What I don’t understand is if we are going to allow bigger pocket bullies and negativity then why are we not allowed to connect and offer service that is so desperately needed on this environment?? Only time will tell
Not true. You can even have your company in your signature (look at Nathan, above, just as an example). If you are complaining that you aren't allowed to say "Hey, I develop there, PM me" or offer some service outside the marketplace, then that is true. If you want to sell yourself, you have to take it to the marketplace, no exceptions.
As for the PM question: answer is that a lot of PM is just as Nathan said - amateur, low brow, sorry service providers. PM that is done well is a job like any other job, and a lot of people don't want to come talk about their job when they get off of work.
Disagree. See above post.
James, you are an exception all the way around in this conversation 😀
Skyline Properties - Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
@James Wise Totally agree. I just had someone ask me who I know in PM in Cleveland... Guess who's name I gave them.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @James Wise:
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Tom Olson:
@Kalen Jordan. This is mostly because any mention of your company or what you do and bigger pockets deletes your post or comment and says its self promotion.
I agree with you that it would be nice to have that point of view on here but as of now that is not going to happen.
It used to be open to have good discussion and networking but in recent years it has turned into newbie questions or just informational. Or worse off a ton of negativity. What I don’t understand is if we are going to allow bigger pocket bullies and negativity then why are we not allowed to connect and offer service that is so desperately needed on this environment?? Only time will tell
Not true. You can even have your company in your signature (look at Nathan, above, just as an example). If you are complaining that you aren't allowed to say "Hey, I develop there, PM me" or offer some service outside the marketplace, then that is true. If you want to sell yourself, you have to take it to the marketplace, no exceptions.
As for the PM question: answer is that a lot of PM is just as Nathan said - amateur, low brow, sorry service providers. PM that is done well is a job like any other job, and a lot of people don't want to come talk about their job when they get off of work.
Disagree. See above post.
James, you are an exception all the way around in this conversation 😀
lol fair point. You are a beautiful man JD.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Ryan Dossey:
@James Wise Totally agree. I just had someone ask me who I know in PM in Cleveland... Guess who's name I gave them.
Truth.....Ya know, we may be traveling a bit off track here but it's fair to say that most folks in the Property Management business aren't great marketers.
- Rental Property Investor · Clearwater & Daytona Beach, FL · Member since 2019 · 194 posts · 197 votes6y
@James Wise I’m sure you are 1 in 1,000 type property manager. 👍
Do you guys recommend anyone similar to yourselves in the Volusia County area of FL? Was thinking of making a change.
- Austin · Member since 2015 · 149 posts · 80 votes6y
Thanks for the feedback y'all. One clarification I should have made in the post - turnkey companies who also do PM in-house are generally pretty active here on BP. It’s the pure PM companies I see far less of.
@Eric X. I actually have found a few. FS Houses and Empire Industries are two that have solid reviews.
@Wesley W. totally agree re: transparency. As an example I was really leaning towards Bridge/Voepel but Voepel has some really bad reviews here that they didn’t even take the time to respond to. I like the transparency and accountability of a company that is active on BP.
@Russell Brazil - thanks for tagging Nathan! Hadn’t run across him yet!
@Nathan Gesner - thanks for posting! I just checked out your site. I suspect there aren't many cash flowing properties in WY in the 10% to 15% CoC range but if there are, please let me know! You seem like *exactly* the type of PM I'd love to work with.
@William Joseph - I think I see what you mean. Perhaps the flip side of that statement though is that everyone knows how valuable it is to have a really good PM. It seems to me like great PMs are very highly valued.
@Ryan Dossey - thanks for the feedback. Yeah perhaps the type of personality geared towards dealing with the day in and out of PM isn’t the type that is into sharing on forums a lot.
@James Wise - that’s very interesting! And my apologies I should have clarified it was mostly the non-turnkey PMs who I find not as active - you are certainly extremely active and I’ve seen many of your posts and found them helpful.
That’s very interesting re: the PM masterminds and the general consensus about BP being anti-PM. Maybe this is a chicken and egg thing - if they were more active, BP would be more pro-them?
A good example is the company I mentioned above (Voepel) not even taking the time to respond to very negative reviews. Kinda blows my mind that companies don’t at a minimum respond to negative reviews.
@Jeremy Smola that makes sense. I suspect though that the PMs who do a really good job of systematizing the job and building out a team that works well have more bandwidth to do content marketing on BP and other places. The ones who are not really managing things smoothly don’t have as much bandwidth?
@Allan Smith - interesting maybe it’s a supply/demand thing. So much demand for PMs that they don’t need to make much of an effort at getting new customers. - Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
@James Wise some of us just don't have much of a market. I'm in a small arena with very few properties that make sense for a cash flowing investor. When something does come up, I already have plenty of buyers available.
In short, I'm just here for the free shrimp.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - 6yKyle MccawBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Keller, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
I love reading this post. Most of the comments above are true.
My personal experience is that there are two kinds of property managers. First is the mom and pop managers. They are doing all aspects of managing properties by their self, and maybe a spouse. They are beyond busy. They have not learned to organize the business enough to take time enough to breath much less take a vacation. The live off all the income their business generates. They cannot afford to invest in hiring a staff. They likely home office out of a spare bedroom. The live a miserable hand to mouth life. They undervalue what I call modern marketing. To me modern marketing is content marketing, YouTube, Facebook, Blogging, SEO, Google Reviews etc. Most likely they have never heard of BiggerPockets. This group is by far the vast majority of managers.
The second kind of manager is a professional the creates a true business. He or she has implemented systems and hired employees to efficiently manage the day to day demands of the business. These owners have time to spend as they like. These are typically the managers that have time and desire to visit and post on BiggerPockets.
My marketplace, Dallas Fort Worth, is quite large. I would guess there are literally only a handful of this kind of manager here.
McCaw Property Management4.4902 Reviews - Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Eric Mayer:
@James Wise I’m sure you are 1 in 1,000 type property manager. 👍
Do you guys recommend anyone similar to yourselves in the Volusia County area of FL? Was thinking of making a change.
We work with on the ground teams in many markets but Volusia County Florida isn't one of them........Yet.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
@James Wise some of us just don't have much of a market. I'm in a small arena with very few properties that make sense for a cash flowing investor. When something does come up, I already have plenty of buyers available.
In short, I'm just here for the free shrimp.
Well there ya go. From this 3 line post I can already tell you've got the wrong mindset. It isn't the market, it's your mindset. Waiting for properties to come up so you can talk to a few buyers you've already got? This reminds me of all the schmucks who get done reading a book that tells them they need to seek off market properties. So they do what any schmuck would do and ask me if I ever come across any off market properties. Yes bro, I come across off market properties every single day. How do you think they get put ON the market?
You should be seeking the properties to place on the market. You should be growing your buyer base at all times. You should NEVER let one of these other buyers see the deals you find before you market them (and yourself) to the fullest capacity. Increase your marketing and you can increase your demand which will increase your sales and the prices you charge for your services. Imagine a world where buyers need to pay you up front to work on their behalf. Imagine a world where you aren't splitting listing commissions 50/50 with some schmo agent who's doing the bare minimum to get by. This is the world I live in, and it's dope.
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