Don't I feel like the grinch!!!
Real Estate investor · Atglen, PA · Member since 2011 · 90 posts · 21 votes
In November my tenants failed to pay their rent and my PM started the eviction process. Today I received a notice that eviction is set for Christmas Eve.
What do you make of that?
Would you suggest to the constable that he wait till after Christmas?
A few years back, I had a job repossessing TV's and appliances for a rent-a-center type business. I went out on Christmas eve and repo'd a fridge, washer/dryer and a stove from the same customer. The customer called us, she was tired of the (weekly) payments & was glad we came right out. She (and all the customers i dealt with) knew if they didn't pay, the business would hound her incessantly, sue her, and smear her credit.
Those same customers *know* that many landlords are "softies" who will "buy" an excuse, or a tearful story & they use that to their own advantage.
I've got $5 that says that this tenant has a better smartphone than you, and a more deluxe cable-tv package than you do. And I'd be willing to bet that the phone and the cable bill are paid in full and current - because cell and cable companies don't take excuses, they shut you off pronto. There's no guilt, remorse, or soul-searching, you didn't pay, the toys go away.
Nope. The "grinch" is the tenant who is stealing YOUR money.
Did you see this thread, Daniel?
Jon Klaus Yes I did, and I didn't wait to file for eviction.
I was surprised that they didn't just push eviction back several days to a day or 2 after Christmas.
I mean what is 2 or 3 days for me? Plus, I won't be working in the property those several days.
A few years back, I had a job repossessing TV's and appliances for a rent-a-center type business. I went out on Christmas eve and repo'd a fridge, washer/dryer and a stove from the same customer. The customer called us, she was tired of the (weekly) payments & was glad we came right out. She (and all the customers i dealt with) knew if they didn't pay, the business would hound her incessantly, sue her, and smear her credit.
Those same customers *know* that many landlords are "softies" who will "buy" an excuse, or a tearful story & they use that to their own advantage.
I've got $5 that says that this tenant has a better smartphone than you, and a more deluxe cable-tv package than you do. And I'd be willing to bet that the phone and the cable bill are paid in full and current - because cell and cable companies don't take excuses, they shut you off pronto. There's no guilt, remorse, or soul-searching, you didn't pay, the toys go away.
***Warning, long post with views you'll probably not agree with***
Obviously this is a moral problem. Otherwise we wouldn't care to be talking about this; Being the "grinch".
It bothers us, you know it's wrong in some way. If we had it any other way, if there was no money involved, we would all say, YES, let those people stay. Poor them, it's Christmas!!!
But add $800 (I'm guessing...) to the mix and what? Our morality changes? Sure this guy already maybe got 1 month of rent free living, but then what do you do? It's Christmas after all!
I have the answer, it's 100% the absolute correct answer and it's only two words long. The magic answer to your dilemma is; it's complicated... You have to see if it fits you personally.
Ask yourself this:
Do you donate to charity(ies)?
If so, maybe you should consider a different way to donate to a good cause. Instead of giving your money to charity, give it to your distressed tenants on Christmas only (or any other day if you wish). See your money actually doing something good! Heck, indulge in it if you want!
Image, you have money that you didn't donate to a charity, and instead you go up to a distressed tenant on Christmas, and say, "I love to use my money to help others. Instead of donating to charities, I help my distressed tenants. So every Christmas, and for Christmas only, I cover as much of my distressed tenants rent's as I can afford (how much your charity money can afford). So, don't worry about it this month, relax for the Holiday! I got you 100% covered! Enjoy your Christmas!"
Personally that would be amazing if I could do that :D
I know you may only donate to charity an amount that may only cover 1 months rent for 1 tenant, but even that would be great! Especially when it occurs like now! And if it came that you needed to choose between tenants, do a lottery.
How much money do you make/have?
Of course if you can't cover it, if it will really screw you over, you should evict them. In the long run, if it made you lose out on some kind of deals, or it made you lose a house, or a substantial amount of money, then it okay to evict. You have a role in society, you provide good housing to others. The more housing you provide is a good thing. If you can get a family who can't afford a mortgage into a rental that's great. If you can do more good with the money spending it another way then helping a tenant, then evict them. Full out utilitarianism. Even if it's more good for yourself/family. If you need a vacation cause you're dying of stress and it's affecting your family and a nice vacation may remedy it. You may have to play grinch. (See you guys, I bet you thought I'd say keep the tenant in at all costs right? :D)
Why is the tenant distressed?
If you can find out why, this may help reinforce a decision. If you tenant is renting a $1,200/month rental, maybe he/she should be evicted and live within their means (move down to a $750/month rental). If your tenant makes $2,500/month and still can't afford an $750/month rental, then what's going on? Are they financially irresponsible? Are there personal problems? Are there drug problems? Is this guy/gal spending all their money on buying jewelry/cloths/road trips and not paying you? That's their fault. They know what's going to happen, and you evicting them will probably HELP them, teaching them a hard lesson of life. And sadly you have to be the teacher...
Or what if they had to be hospitalized and now own $13k in medical bills? Then I and others could sympathize. But of course you can only go so far as in the second question.
In the end, take all this in and sit down, reason it out, and pick the decision you know is right. I don't think just because you're a landlord you need to be heartless and simply put money over another human being so simply. And I think you feel that way too :D
Feed back welcomed!
Good luck Daniel Fisher,
Manuel
Obviously this is a moral problem. Otherwise we wouldn't care to be talking about this; Being the "grinch".
It bothers us, you know it's wrong in some way. If we had it any other way, if there was no money involved, we would all say, YES, let those people stay. Poor them, it's Christmas!!!
But add $800 (I'm guessing...) to the mix and what? Our morality changes? Sure this guy already maybe got 1 month of rent free living, but then what do you do? It's Christmas after all!
I have the answer, it's 100% the absolute correct answer and it's only two words long. The magic answer to your dilemma is; it's complicated... You have to see if it fits you personally.
Ask yourself this:
Do you donate to charity(ies)?
If so, maybe you should consider a different way to donate to a good cause. Instead of giving your money to charity, give it to your distressed tenants on Christmas only (or any other day if you wish). See your money actually doing something good! Heck, indulge in it if you want!
Image, you have money that you didn't donate to a charity, and instead you go up to a distressed tenant on Christmas, and say, "I love to use my money to help others. Instead of donating to charities, I help my distressed tenants. So every Christmas, and for Christmas only, I cover as much of my distressed tenants rent's as I can afford (how much your charity money can afford). So, don't worry about it this month, relax for the Holiday! I got you 100% covered! Enjoy your Christmas!"
Personally that would be amazing if I could do that :D
I know you may only donate to charity an amount that may only cover 1 months rent for 1 tenant, but even that would be great! Especially when it occurs like now! And if it came that you needed to choose between tenants, do a lottery.
How much money do you make/have?
Of course if you can't cover it, if it will really screw you over, you should evict them. In the long run, if it made you lose out on some kind of deals, or it made you lose a house, or a substantial amount of money, then it okay to evict. You have a role in society, you provide good housing to others. The more housing you provide is a good thing. If you can get a family who can't afford a mortgage into a rental that's great. If you can do more good with the money spending it another way then helping a tenant, then evict them. Full out utilitarianism. Even if it's more good for yourself/family. If you need a vacation cause you're dying of stress and it's affecting your family and a nice vacation may remedy it. You may have to play grinch. (See you guys, I bet you thought I'd say keep the tenant in at all costs right? :D)
Why is the tenant distressed?
If you can find out why, this may help reinforce a decision. If you tenant is renting a $1,200/month rental, maybe he/she should be evicted and live within their means (move down to a $750/month rental). If your tenant makes $2,500/month and still can't afford an $750/month rental, then what's going on? Are they financially irresponsible? Are there personal problems? Are there drug problems? Is this guy/gal spending all their money on buying jewelry/cloths/road trips and not paying you? That's their fault. They know what's going to happen, and you evicting them will probably HELP them, teaching them a hard lesson of life. And sadly you have to be the teacher...
Or what if they had to be hospitalized and now own $13k in medical bills? Then I and others could sympathize. But of course you can only go so far as in the second question.
In the end, take all this in and sit down, reason it out, and pick the decision you know is right. I don't think just because you're a landlord you need to be heartless and simply put money over another human being so simply. And I think you feel that way too :D
Feed back welcomed!
Good luck Daniel Fisher,
Manuel
Can't say I agree with one thing you said.
Picking and choosing what to do opens yourself to lawsuits. Set a policy, and stick to it. End of story. The rest is just noise.
What do you make of that?
Would you suggest to the constable that he wait till after Christmas?
Daniel: Eviction is also about you and your family/loved ones and your holiday/vacation. If it's going to cause you and your family grief if you are away supervising the eviction and changing out the locks on Christmas Eve, then wait. Call and change the eviction/lock out to a date when you can be present and respond to whatever happens.
Can't say I agree with one thing you said.
Picking and choosing what to do opens yourself to lawsuits. Set a policy, and stick to it. End of story. The rest is just noise.
Really? Well if that is the case, if you took into account everything I said, you'd agree with me. As I said, if you have too much to loose, then evict. IE. If you have a chance of getting sued and loose a ton of money, then that's too much to loose. :D
But really? What kind of law suit? A discrimination law suite?
Manuel Acuna Although I appreciate your reasoning, i disagree with the approach. To me, charity is based on the desire to give. I donate because I want to help others. Those forcing my hand to provide charitable assistance is unethical and if it is to support them, then it is nothing more than them selling pity and greedy. In a situation like this, I might be inclined to wait until the day after Christmas, however as a society we do not take responsibility for our own actions and more often than not those who give find themselves in a situation like Will did with an individual.
http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/67/topics/64944-the-occupants-from-hell-
In the end, if you do not honor your commitments and adhere to your responsibilities, then do you truly deserve charitable donations? That's not a charity I would donate to and I certainly hope you wouldn't allocate your hard earned money to such as cause. Especially when there are plenty of other causes that could benefit from your support.
Sorry to be the grinch, but helping those in need is different than helping those who take
Can't say I agree with one thing you said.
Picking and choosing what to do opens yourself to lawsuits. Set a policy, and stick to it. End of story. The rest is just noise.
Really? Well if that is the case, if you took into account everything I said, you'd agree with me. As I said, if you have too much to loose, then evict. IE. If you have a chance of getting sued and loose a ton of money, then that's too much to loose. :D
But really? What kind of law suit? A discrimination law suite?
Absolutely. What happens when ones a woman and ones a man? Black or white? Hispanic or black? Fat or slim? Gay or straight? Married or not? Kids or not?
Rules don't see size, color, sex, family status, marital status, sexual orientation. All rules see are facts.
http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/67/topics/64944-the-occupants-from-hell-
In the end, if you do not honor your commitments and adhere to your responsibilities, then do you truly deserve charitable donations? That's not a charity I would donate to and I certainly hope you wouldn't allocate your hard earned money to such as cause. Especially when there are plenty of other causes that could benefit from your support.
Sorry to be the grinch, but helping those in need is different than helping those who take
Great, now let's solve this, here's my response;
- It is not "forced charity". Everyone loves saying that for some reason. Say you were born into poverty, would you say, "My mom and dad forced me into poverty through conceiving me!" I hope you wouldn't. It may have happened that way, you can start throwing euphemisms to demonize and say it, confidently, but it's wrong. But somehow if your mom got sick and couldn't pay rent you would demonize her inability to pay rent as forcing charity on someone? You would have to believe your mom and dad forced poverty on you as well.
Let me be imaginative here with contrasting examples:
- What if your mom ran out of gas one day taking you to work (I know your mom probably doesn't take you to work)
+The tenant not making it to the end of the month with payment in hand = running out of gas causing you to miss the financial opportunity you had.
- and your mom couldn't afford to get more gas because she was sick (or got fired) and all her money is gone, and you have no way else to get to work.
+ Tenant got sick and lost all his/her money (or lost his/her job). They have no way of getting you (to) your money = your mom not having a way to get you to your source of money (work).
- You never make it to work and find out your fired because of that.
+ Tenant never made the money, and never paid you. You lose money.
- Are you going to tell your mom, "Mom, you forced me to get fired from work! You thief!"
+ Are you going to tell the tenant, "You never paid me, FORCED CHARITY!!! THIEF!!!!!"
Please write a different example if you please, I'd love to learn from you as well! I don't think I'm all knowing and right! But I definitely think it's more of a cause and effect, then a force. Yes, that's a fairly nuanced statement.
- Now if in the story your mom just sat and said, "I'm not going to even try taking you to work." You could blame her, mostly.
+ Likewise, if a tenant is blatantly not even trying to pay, then blame them.
Sometimes, it genuinely may be force though, I agree. Like with Will's case. But if you read my post (which I'm starting to think no one is who replies) if someone was doing such things you would evict.
I never said let people stay in for months at a time for free. I said 1 month (December for Christmas) if NEED be and IF YOU WANT TO. If you want money over morality, go ahead, but if you have the feelings that the situation isn't right, analyze and act on it.
I'm saying, if a person is in real need, perhaps it's necessary to give them a break. And I'm not even saying all the time! But no one seems to understand that. Sure the decision of "who's trying hard?" and "who isn't?" Would probably be hard to dictate. That's on you individually though. It's not the question at hand.
And lastly, "if you do not honor your commitments and adhere to your responsibilities, then do you truly deserve charitable donations?" I guarantee, everyone that get's any money from you (or from anyone else) through a charitable service (if you donate) have not been able to, "honor" a lot of commitments. Not because they're evil, but because life is truly rough on some.
Please, tell the whole world to stop being charitable to people who haven't "honored" a commitment/responsibility so they can realize that's everyone and see you are absolutely wrong. Sorry, but that is a mean thing to say. Where's the empathy for those people? I'm not saying everyone is telling the truth in those situations, but a lot of people don't, "honor" commitments because of struggle. Not malicious thinking.
Please though, I'd love another thoughtful response! (I'm not being sarcastic)
Thanks!
Forced Charity - I am not sure I follow. Being born into poverty is not similar to being pushed to donate time/money. When I suggest "forced charity" I am implying those who expect to be given something (tenant) should receive it by a specific person (their landlord). I think that's wrong and if you disagree let me know and I can send you my address because I will expect a $100 check from you.
There are so many tools and opportunities out there that allow and help people succeed... for free. As a matter of fact, the education on this forum alone has helped me increase my financial stability (through RE investing) and although I paid a subscription, I could have easily not paid and simply taken all the information and used it anyway. Either way, its available for everyone. Libraries, schooling, government assistance programs, etc are all there to assist. The intent is to assist, not depend. Whether its assist to help get you back on your feet or assist to help you fulfill your goals/dreams. In no shape of form am I demonizing people for not being able to meet their commitments. What I am suggesting however is that if you can't meet your commitments then rather than ask or expect someone to help you out (by simply not paying your rent) it might be better to adjust your situation. In your example of "your mom" taking me to work is actually my responsibility, not hers. You prove my point in your own example in that if I asked my mom for a ride, then I will expect the ride. If she can't do so then I expect it to be her fault. Exactly! She should have never given me the ride in the first place, much like blindly giving one month for free to a tenant. The next month he/she might expect it. It's all about accountability for your own actions.
The fundamental issue here is lack of communication. When life changing occurrences happen you cannot assume that those around you can/might be sympathetic to your situation. I actually had a tenant (who has been my tenant for 3 years now) call me last month to tell me that his wages were garnished due to unpaid health bills for his sick wife and asked if he could pay me the following pay period. I was aware of his wife's situation and understood so I had no problem waiting until the next pay period. Because of this, I feel that our relationship is even better than before and he has since paid on time.
Philosophically, I agree with your principles however I just think that each situation demands its own solution. I feel you think I am a hard azz with my tenants whereas I might think you are more of a pushover with yours. More than likely we are both somewhere in the middle but are simply coming at this from two different angles.
Good chat! :)
Daniel Fisher, I'm the type of guy who typically sees everything in black and white, right or wrong. This looks like the rare occurrence of a gray area.
What's this tenants history like? Is this a recurring issue that coincidentally happen to manifest itself on Christmas Eve? Or is this a good tenant who has fallen on hard times?
If this is a recurring issue tenant, I think the best thing you can do for them is kick them out on Christmas Eve. Perhaps the humility of the situation will finally sink in enough for them to make a change in their behavior.
If this is a good tenant who has fallen on hard times, I would be more amicable. If you are feeling any guilt you may stop by and talk to them, shake their hand, find out what is going on. This will probably give you some relief in your decision.
Regardless of what you do, no one can say you are doing the wrong thing.
P.S. When I was a kid, I attended school with a majority of children from low socioeconomic families. These kids received free lunch and breakfast cards for their meals. My parents were too proud to have the school pay for my meals, although we probably could have qualified. I remember on most mornings walking by the cafeteria and seeing those kids eating their free meals as my stomach churned. Through facebook, I've seen these same people still relying on a government handouts for their measly existence. When you take away the consequences of failure and laziness, you end up with today's society..
Tenants have these associates called "friends and family", from which they can seek assistance in their times of need. If "friends and family" aren't willing to step up with financial assistance, then what does that tell you?
Manuel Acuna - once you are managing a rental of your own, you will probably gain a different perspective - from experience. Maybe the landlord has already made some substantial charitable contributions this year, for example to assist those who suffered from that storm named Sandy that hit a couple of months back. But regardless, the donor's choice of charity to which to contribute should be for somebody truly WORTHY of charity - this tenant is unlikely to be fitting of that to this landlord.
I wouldn't be suprised if these people find a way to pay you at the last minute when the reality of their Christmas tree and all of the presents being thrown out into the snow hits home.
In my state, the court officer posts a notice on the door 24 hours before the eviction letting the occupants know that they need to pay, move out, or they will be thrown out.
Rob K I wouldn't be suprised if these people find a way to pay you at the last minute when the reality of their Christmas tree and all of the presents being thrown out into the snow hits home.
Gives new meaning to the term - give 'em the ol' heave ho...ho...ho.
It stinks but if the tenant had paid their rent there wouldn't be an issue.
A few details about the tenants: In June he was injured doing a side job and couldn't work his regular job. In July the company he worked for laid off several people, which he was one them and they had a baby. He was still unemployed as of November. She did find a part-time job but it's not near enough.
They haven't had an on time payment since June, which actually has benefited me so far with the 10% late fees.
In November they said they'll have the rent by the 28th but I was not willing to wait until then to see if they would actually pay, so eviction was started.
Because of filing fees they only had a partial month's rent.
Philosophically, I agree with your principles however I just think that each situation demands its own solution. I feel you think I am a hard azz with my tenants whereas I might think you are more of a pushover with yours. More than likely we are both somewhere in the middle but are simply coming at this from two different angles.
Good chat! :)
Hey I agree with this. Well except the hard *** and push over part.
See, I don't think in this example, your tenant forced you to be charitable, it was more a cause and effect. An accident. But that's where we'll probably never agree upon.
I agree, great chat!
I'm sure someone reading our back and forth posts will help someone make a decision!
Oh, and I don't have any rentals... yet... I'm still waiting on my first deal for a fix and flip.
Probably, but I figure it'd be great to have an outside opinion focusing on the morality, not the money. But if you read my whole post, money is very much considered (not saying you didn't).
As we see Daniel's new post, it seems his tenant may not be, "worthy" because of too much problems. That's exactly what my post was about, I never said everyone in the world should get this help. It's all covered in the "Why is the tenant distressed?" part. It specifically says,
With what's been going on for Daniel Fisher, he even said himself, the 10% fees were benefiting him. Of course this wasn't benefiting the tenant. In the situation, obviously the tenant's are living out of their means. They need a cheaper rental. And this has been going on for 6 months now! So therefor if you (Steve Babiak) take my (inexperienced) advice, you would've evicted them a long time ago. That 10% is a disadvantage to the tenants, they should be in a cheaper rental, they are much out of their means. They should of been out before Christmas, but since Christmas is here, it's up to you individually to say, "Do I want to be charitable for Christmas? Can I afford it? Do these tenants deserve it? Can I do something better with my money? Do I even WANT to be a charitable person?" if the answers lean toward letting the tenants stay, let them stay a little longer. If not, then make them leave them leave.
Personally, if I benefited with the 10% every month, and I didn't evict them for 6 months and have all those benefits, and never donated to charity so late in the year (which I don't donate, I like to go do stuff like feed homeless people on the street, give them blankets, stuff that I can see my money actually doing something...), I would probably lean towards giving them Christmas. But I'm not in the situation, so you have to solve it individually with your moral compass. That's the most important part, what would you do considering what I said you should think about? My guide never said if ABC happens, don't evict them its, considering ABC, what would you do?
Everything you guys are telling me, I covered. I really just don't think you guys are reading the entire post.
With what's been going on for Daniel Fisher, he even said himself, the 10% fees were benefiting him. Of course this wasn't benefiting the tenant. In the situation, obviously the tenant's are living out of their means. They need a cheaper rental. And this has been going on for 6 months now! So therefor if you (Steve Babiak) take my (inexperienced) advice, you would've evicted them a long time ago.
Eviction was not an option before this. They always paid, albeit late. There has been no property damage and, as I understand it, I can't evict for late payment.
Those same customers *know* that many landlords are "softies" who will "buy" an excuse, or a tearful story & they use that to their own advantage.
I am in no way buying a sob story. They are being evicted if they can't come up with the rent.
However, I'm not sure what purpose it serves to not let them stay 2 more days. Do I want to just make an example of them?
Does compassion translate to "softie"?
I've got $5 that says that this tenant has a better smartphone than you, and a more deluxe cable-tv package than you do. And I'd be willing to bet that the phone and the cable bill are paid in full and current - because cell and cable companies don't take excuses, they shut you off pronto. There's no guilt, remorse, or soul-searching, you didn't pay, the toys go away.
:-) I'll take your $5. This tenant has been using a bare minimum cell phone. And has had 3 different numbers since June, which tells me he is avoiding creditors