Upstairs Tenant Purposely Making Noise During Showings

Lender · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Have you talked to the upstairs tenants to find out what their concerns are? Maybe it's something easy that you could address for them. People do strange things, and you never really know why until you ask.

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James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Lauren Hogan:

I need advice! I own a upstairs/downstairs duplex in Denver, purchased in October. The upstairs rented out quickly in November and we have a 6-month lease with those tenants through May 31. The downstairs, it's a garden-level, needed renovation. We finished updates in December, and placed the downstairs on the market for rent.

We've haven't had any luck finding tenants until we recently lowered the unit to a price point that meets the market. Since then, we've had a number of showings. Probably 20 in the last 2 weeks. Whenever the tenants upstairs are there, which is often as one doesn't have a job, they stomp around the unit. It's only 826 sq ft.

At first, we thought it was an older house with little soundproofing, BUT today we watched the upstairs tenants leave the house, notice people were walking into the downstairs to view the unit, and walk back into the house to stomp around for 10 minutes and then leave again. I'm 100% positive they are doing this purposely to deter anyone from moving in below.

Our lease with the upstairs tenants ends in May, and we will not renew with these tenants. However, what are we supposed to do in the meantime? Continue to show the unit and hope for the best?

We used a BiggerPockets lease agreement, which contains the following under Use of Premise:

Tenant agrees to limit use of the Premises to those uses consistent with the Premises’ clean, safe, sanitary, and habitable condition. Neither Tenant nor Tenant’s licensees or invitees shall be a nuisance or act in any manner that would interfere with the quiet enjoyment by adjacent property owners. This prohibition includes, but is not limited to, loud noises, loud music, noxious or unpleasant odors, and disruptive behavior or actions.

Advice PLEASE!

Tell them you'll evict them if they don't STFU. Whether or not you'll actually want to go through with it in May is not relevant. What they need to know is that you are willing to do it. So there is at least a decent chance it will correct the behavior. Might not though but you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

16 Reply

Thomas Cummings

Member since 2019 · 85 posts · 26 votes

6y

So you have a ‘party wall agreement’. I would use one and have both tenants sign it when they sign the lease. Then adD some language to protests you from this happening with the next tenants.

1 Reply

Thomas Cummings

Member since 2019 · 85 posts · 26 votes

6y

Sorry. *Do

0 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Mills River, NC · Member since 2019 · 37 posts · 68 votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan

I would post a note on their door that states the date and time of the next showing. Then below, highlight that portion of the lease agreement they signed that you shared at the bottom of your post. I would also include the portion of the lease that states how they can get evicted for violating the terms.

12 Reply

Anthony Wick

Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

@Sean Poulos

Agree with you. But would have a face-to-face conversation with them first.

8 Reply

Theresa HarrisPro Member

Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan It is possible that they wanted to rent the lower unit and are to immature to actually talk to you and this is somehow their solution?

1 Reply

Patricia Steiner

Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

First and foremost, you have to enforce your lease. Otherwise, nothing in it is meaningful. I recommend sending them a Notice To Quit For Reason Other Than Non-Payment of Rent. Let's face it, they're sabotaging you. They may feel that you're offering a nicer unit at a lower price - while they're paying more after tolerating all the renovations. And, while that might have been worth discussing had they approached you as "adults," they chose to financially harm you. Let them know that they have violated a lease covenant and state it as you did above for us. Advise that failure to "quit" immediately will result in eviction. It's amazing how calling tenants on their behavior and enforcing the lease terms results in "peace returning to the village."

5 Reply

Account Closed

Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan

There will be wording in your local legislation regarding this almost certainly. Point them to it and the consequences of breaching that legislation. Do not renew regardless of their reaction.

0 Reply

John Montgomery

Member since 2019 · 52 posts · 37 votes

6y

You could request to investigate the possibility that there is too much noise transmission between the units and have an associate of yours walk around normally upstairs while you listen to the noise downstairs. It may be that noise transfers easily through the units. If so, then you will have to consider weather or not to do an expensive sound mitigation retrofit. If not you will know definitively that they are doing it on purpose, and they'll also know they've been found out. At that point you'd have to decide how you want to confront them or just walk away giving them the stink eye.

2 Reply

Shanell Law

Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 21 votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan make sure you document well. Provide them notices references lease violations. They will support your notice to relocate.

Do they work? Show property during their working hours.

Tag team the next showing by asking the tenant to Step outside to speak to you while a friend shows the prospective tenant the unit for rent.

2 Reply

Lauren HoganPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 86 posts · 160 votes

6y

Thank you for the wonderful advice. Me and my partner talked a lot about this issue and decided to call them out on this issue right away. We presented a solution and will see what happens.

I sent them a nicely worded email telling them that we've noticed a lot of noise upstairs during showings and offered them an early exit on the lease. We also pointed them towards the Use of Premise wording I have added above as a reminder. Will report back on what happens!

9 Reply

Hank Fields

Property Manager · Long Beach, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 12 votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan is there a clause in your lease agreement concerning noise? If they are stomping around and making loud noises specifically when you are showing the available unit, you can point to the lease agreement. Albeit, the lower unit is not technically occupied by a tenant, you, as the owner are clearly being bothered by the unnecessary noise while showing it to potential renters. You need to document all of the noise in writing. When it happens, how long, type of noise, etc. You can serve them a notice with a written noise complaint describing exactly what they are doing to disturb the peace, etc. This will be a good practice to put into place for future tenants as well. Good luck!

2 Reply

Jacob Graves

Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 64 posts · 29 votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan

I think you need to discuss the situation with them and try to have them extend their lease. Turnover after 6 months is never ideal.

0 Reply

Mary M.

Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

Have you talked to them? They may not even know they are “stomping”.

I would call them and just let them know (nicely) that maybe shoes off is a good policy etc etc.

Assume its inadvertent until you know otherwise.

1 Reply

Lynnette E.

Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

6y

Maybe you can say that you are trying to find suitable downstairs renters so that the folks in both units can get along, but with their stomping around the quiet ones do not have much interest, but there is interest with a family with month old twins and a single father with a son who's band will practice in the house, which would they prefer?

2 Reply

Michael Noto

Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

From what you described these tenants probably won't stop no matter what you do. I doubt reasoning with them will help if they are adults who are stomping around their apartment just to spite you. Try having a conversation with them and see if that works, but plan on it not.

Make sure you are following anything in your lease that states how much notice you need to give them regarding not renewing their lease post May 31. Something tells me that getting them out won't be smooth either.

3 Reply

Bill S.Pro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan so I like the idea of early termination. I call it the "happy clause", "you don't seem happy here and I'm certainly not happy with you so why don't we part ways?" In my experience, people who are so immature as to stomp on the floor to deter someone from renting below are too immature to stop doing it due to a polite conversation or email otherwise. I might be inclined to offer their security deposit back in full when they had me the keys. I might also be inclined to offer them some $ grease the skids. After all it is costing you money each day the bottom unit stays vacant. Do you want to be right or rich?

FWIW you can not enforce any clause about noise in the Denver courts. It is extremely difficult to evict for any reason other than not paying rent in Denver so you need to figure another way. Also, I am always against threatening something that you can't follow through with.

Another option would be to do clandestine showings. That is, schedule showings when you expect that they will be gone. Given the nature of the situation this might be a bit challenging. At the same time, if you could arrive in a manner that wouldn't be obvious so they wouldn't know you or the prospects are there might also work.

With 20 showings an no takers, something is definitely wrong. You should be able to rent it with 5-10 showings. Seems like your price was high but usually that means you don't get showings. Is there something else going on too?

2 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Lauren Hogan:

I need advice! I own a upstairs/downstairs duplex in Denver, purchased in October. The upstairs rented out quickly in November and we have a 6-month lease with those tenants through May 31. The downstairs, it's a garden-level, needed renovation. We finished updates in December, and placed the downstairs on the market for rent.

We've haven't had any luck finding tenants until we recently lowered the unit to a price point that meets the market. Since then, we've had a number of showings. Probably 20 in the last 2 weeks. Whenever the tenants upstairs are there, which is often as one doesn't have a job, they stomp around the unit. It's only 826 sq ft.

At first, we thought it was an older house with little soundproofing, BUT today we watched the upstairs tenants leave the house, notice people were walking into the downstairs to view the unit, and walk back into the house to stomp around for 10 minutes and then leave again. I'm 100% positive they are doing this purposely to deter anyone from moving in below.

Our lease with the upstairs tenants ends in May, and we will not renew with these tenants. However, what are we supposed to do in the meantime? Continue to show the unit and hope for the best?

We used a BiggerPockets lease agreement, which contains the following under Use of Premise:

Tenant agrees to limit use of the Premises to those uses consistent with the Premises’ clean, safe, sanitary, and habitable condition. Neither Tenant nor Tenant’s licensees or invitees shall be a nuisance or act in any manner that would interfere with the quiet enjoyment by adjacent property owners. This prohibition includes, but is not limited to, loud noises, loud music, noxious or unpleasant odors, and disruptive behavior or actions.

Advice PLEASE!

Well, not helpful at the moment, but month to month leases solve all this type of bs in short order. I am 100% month to month, and tell all tenants up front and in no uncertain terms that I use month to month so they can leave anytime they want and I can send them packing any time I want. It pretty much nips this sort of nonsense in the bud at the get go. Sorry you're going through this - certainly one of those bizarre things.

4 Reply

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

6y

Why are people so afraid to just talk to people? Maybe it's a complete coincidence and the noise just travels easily between levels. Maybe they're complete a-holes. Whatever the issue, you won't know until you actually speak with them. It could just be that they don't understand how loud it is and they will quiet down.

In the future, you should fully disclose the noise level between units. Make sure the tenants upstairs are aware of how easily it travels down and stress that they must be conscious of the noise they make. Also let the downstairs tenant know that the upstairs tenants may be making noise without realizing how loud it is.

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Lauren HoganPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 86 posts · 160 votes

6y

@Bill S. I used my happy clause and offered them an early exit which they took. They've been in the unit for 3 months, with no tenants below the entire time. They dealt with 2 weeks of renovation noises in the unit below and referenced how annoying that was in the email exchange we had.

To your point about the number of showings. You are 100% correct, there must be something wrong here. We've been dropping the price of the unit until we started getting a lot of inquiries which was at $1750 but no takers. We dropped the price again over the weekend and possibly will have tenants by EOD, so perhaps we didn't go low enough to make the unit worthwhile.

Can I ask - what would you do about soundproofing/noise between units? It will be an ongoing problem. I'm wondering if spending $1k on covering hardwood floors with vinyl would go a long way?

1 Reply

Lauren HoganPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 86 posts · 160 votes

6y

@Nathan Gesner I'm not too sure why they didn't come to us before with this problem. I would have been happy to address it headon months ago.

I'll be taking your advice and be transparent about the noise between units. What do you think about spending about $1k on something to help the noise?

0 Reply

Bill S.Pro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

6y

@Lauren Hogan the noise between units. I sold my up/down duplex due to that very issue. I'll leave a quick primer on noise. Google sound proofing for more info than you want to know.

1) There are two kinds of noise. Airborne and structural. Voices are airborne and footfalls are structural. Each kind requires to some degree a different approach.

2) Airborne (ie voices/music/tv) - travels through duct works if the furnace/ac ducts are shared. If the top unit has it's own furnace in it's own space and same with the bottom unit then this should not be a problem. If they share duct work then the only real solution is to separate the duct work for each unit. Single pain windows are also an issue here. Even if the windows are closed the sound goes through the glass in one unit and back into the other unit through it's glass. People don't always think of this. If you have single pane windows, in one unit you can likely hear pretty much everything that goes on outside but what that means is that outside people can hear what's going on inside and so it goes. Without addressing those two items, you are wasting money doing any other soundproofing work.

3) Structural (foot falls, chair sides and bouncing balls) - travels through the structural elements of the building. Foot hits the floor, sound travels through flooring (advantage to carpet here over hardwood) to subfloor, subfloor to floor joist, floor joist to ceiling, ceiling into basement unit. The way to address this is to decouple the connection. At some point, you have to break the path of sound. You can do this by installing a floating floor in the upper unit or using a 2nd drywall ceiling in the basement isolated with j-clips.

4) Other secondary tactics involve installing material that absorbs sound energy. Dense material like concrete works good for this. The more the better. I use cellulose insulation blown into the joists space in the ceilings of the basement unit. A 2nd layer of drywall in the basement unit attached with the aforementioned j-clips. J-clips decouple, 2nd layer of drywall absorbs sound energy.

Finally, sound is a bit like water. Fill a room up and where ever water would flow out then sound will escape.

So for your $1K budget. The first priority is to separate the duct works if that is not done. After that, your floor covering would help some. Carpet does better than vinyl for sound but I know it loses on all other fronts.

I just spent $12k in soundproofing between half of a 2 up 2 down 4plex and this units did not share a furnace and each furnace was in it's respective unit. Not sure how it will work out but preliminary results indicate significant improvement.

You should discuss this with @Craig Curelop. There is an old thread here about this same topic and he told me he went a different route than I described above with his sound proofing on his up/down unit. When I spoke with him, the jury was still out on whether or not it was money well spent.

3 Reply

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Lauren Hogan:

@Nathan Gesner I'm not too sure why they didn't come to us before with this problem. I would have been happy to address it headon months ago.

I'll be taking your advice and be transparent about the noise between units. What do you think about spending about $1k on something to help the noise?

I've seen people try to reduce noise and it usually doesn't work that well. I guess you'll have to talk to some contractors and see what your options are. Reducing the noise is a great benefit if you can make it happen.

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Account Closed

San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

I hate hearing people above me. They can weigh 50 pounds and sound like an elephant to me.

Funny story - the building I last managed had 10 foot ceilings and was an old very solidly built building with carpets. Normally, nobody ever mentioned hearing tenants above them.

Then, of course, came the tenant who ranted about how the guy above her deliberately stomped around to irritate her. He was a very sweet engineering student who was rarely home, and after I asked him to be sensitive to her - within reason - he made extra effort, which was really going above and beyond.

So, one night late, I get a frantic call from this woman who tells me she was sleeping peacefully in bed and randomly, the ceiling caved in on her! So, I move her into an empty unit, as the ceiling plaster had fallen down all over her bed, which was just a mattress on the floor. But, we dragged it to another empty unit.

And, when I went back to her unit to lock up, etc., I see a broom on the floor covered in plaster.

Yep. Apparently, she was banging on the ceiling with all her might with a broom handle and ha ha - the ceiling fell down upon her naughty head. LOL. We all pretended that wasn't what happened and the soft-hearted owner I worked for actually paid for a new throw rug for her, because she had the cojones to claim the plaster ruined her rug.

Some people should only ever live in upstairs units. This is a hilarious video on the subject on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU

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Upstairs Tenant Purposely Making Noise During Showings

Upstairs Tenant Purposely Making Noise During Showings

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