Why are you refusing section 8 vouchers?

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Why are you refusing section 8 vouchers?

James York
Member since 2020 · 137 posts · 158 votes

I’ve just finished reading “The Color of Law” which is an eye opening look in to government sponsored segregation through housing policy. With section 8 being an actionable step in the right direction, why are some landlords refusing it? The inspections I’ve experienced look for things I’d demand for my family. The allowance for rent meets or sometimes exceeds market rent in my area.  The tenants are often more qualified than market tenants. They often have incomes 6-8x their portion of the rent vs the 3x I typically require. Aside from places where vouchers don’t match market rent, why aren’t you taking section 8 tenants?

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Lam N.
Rental Property Investor · Troy · Member since 2017 · 175 posts · 271 votes
5y

(1) Inspectors have to justify their job.  So, they will always find something.  One time, we showed them a recently renovated unit.  They literally did not find a single thing wrong with the unit.  But they dinged us on peeling paint on the wooden post as divider for the garden area.  Remediation for that was easy enough.  We just painted over it.  But the point remains.  You can give them a perfect unit and they will still find something wrong with it.

(2) Section 8 tenants are lazy and demanding.  They will literally demand that you come out to press the reset button on the gfi.  

(3) No accountability at all.  Every section 8 tenant I have ever had ended up trashing the place.  They also live in filthy conditions.  

Sorry, will never do section 8 ever again.  Too much of a headache dealing with this segment of the tenant pool.

Edit.

Section 8 tenants are kings and queens of the learned helplessness examples.  They never ever want to improve their lives.  The tragic thing is they pass this learned helplessness onto their children.  It's sad to watch them not able to do the simplest things.  They don't even have the common sense for the simplest things.  


For example, one time they poured grease down the drain and clogged it.  They told us the kitchen sink was clogged.  When I got there, the kitchen was semi-flooded.  Why?  Because they continued to use the sink anyway and it was overflowing onto the kitchen floor.  Honestly, do you really want to deal with people like this?  I was going to say they are dumber than rocks but I'm sure social justice warriors on here will kill me over it.  But how would you describe people who continue to use the kitchen sink that was clogged even though it was flooding the kitchen floor?

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Amanda Bruneau:

    I have rented to section 8 once and unfortunately, it was not a good experience. They did cause significant damage to my house and when we tried to keep their security deposit to pay for the damage they threaten me and my family. In the end, we just gave them their security deposit back because we wanted them out of our life and feared for what they were capable of doing to us and our property. BUT and there is a big BUT, we did not properly screen them and that was our fault (we were new at being landlords). We never met the boyfriend before they moved in because he wasn't on the lease so we didn't realize he would be a permanent resident. He had a criminal record a mile long. We learned a very valuable lesson which was you have to do a background check on everyone living in house. I would be open to renting to section 8 again in the future, but the background check, credit report, references from prior residents have to be checked and rechecked, just like every other applicant!

    See my statement on Baby Daddys moving in.. I dont know what the % is between female and male Section voucher holders.. But I have to believe its got to be at least 75% female if not more.. and of course they have kids  so of course there is going to be baby daddys.  Its a tough one..  I looked at a MF in Memphis a few years back when i toured with a local broker there..  And he showed me one they really were proud of.. It was 100% female  Memphis subsided housing. However it was completely fenced with a guard at the entrance.. NO men allowed period.  Only the tenants and their children.. And from what he told me men that violate that could end up speaking with the law.  so at the end of the day looks great on paper  .. but lots of drama to keep it that way.

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  • Amanda Bruneau
    Real Estate Agent · Providence, RI · Member since 2020 · 41 posts · 29 votes
    5y

    @Alex T. my bad experience was also in MA. Have you ever had a positive experience with section 8? 

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  • Alex T.
    Investor · Newton, MA · Member since 2009 · 69 posts · 19 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Amanda Bruneau:

    @Alex T. my bad experience was also in MA. Have you ever had a positive experience with section 8? 

    Yes, so far I've had 10 Section 8 tenants and one "almost tenant", and here is the breakdown:

    - 3 evictions (lots of damage for each, 1 ran up my water bill up to $20,000, other left a pitbull and 3 cats behind for whom I had to call animal control and move her stuff to government-approved storage, which cost me around $5,000 not counting repair costs). To be fair, one of these evictions was my Chicago property, where evictions are a little better than Massachusetts.

    - 1 cash for keys (basically a cheaper alternative to eviction), this was a professional tenant for whom this was a plan from the beginning

    - 1 drug addict who left voluntarily for fear of having her voucher taken away (lots of property damage and 2 broken windows from when one of her friends overdosed on something)

    - 1 lady who illegally sublet my apartment to a drug dealer (there was an FBI raid in that apartment about 3 months after she moved)

    - 1 "handyman" tenant who never had money to pay his share of rent but always volunteered to do repairs, most of his repairs ended up being temporary mickey-mouse repairs that ended up costing me more in the end, in the end he and his wife left with almost $4000 in unpaid back rent

    - 1 lady who always had sketchy visitors over including a "friend" who supposedly had a slip and fall accident on my porch and is still suing my insurance company over it

    - Almost tenant threw a tantrum because I asked for a co-signer since security deposit was not coming from her own funds, she complained to MCAD (Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination) because I supposedly discriminated against her by asking for a co-signer when I wouldn't have asked for one if the security deposit came out of her own funds. MCAD has quotas to fill to justify being paid out of your tax dollars, if you look at their cases (they advertise their "wins" on their website) they exclusively go after mom and pop landlords who don't have the budget to fight them in court (they typically encourage you to "settle" (extortion) and claim that "justice has been served"), never after large property management companies that would deplete MCAD budget in court, a slimy tactic to justify their existence.

    - 2 good tenants who paid rent on time and I haven't had issues with (1 still rents from me).

    Out of my regular tenants (9 so far), I've only had 1 problematic tenant. I do the same background checks for both groups (by the way there are "second-chance" organizations that will "clean" the records of Section 8 tenants, making it look like they have a good history). I don't know how/if they deal with court records, but they do bribe previous landlords into giving good references. These organizations are effectively committing fraud but because of supposed "good intentions" they get away with it). As you can see, only 2/11 of my Section 8 tenants can be classified as "quality" tenants in the same exact area where 8/9 market tenants are good.

    Anyone claiming Section 8 tenants are no different from regular tenants either has an agenda or is ignorant and has never been a landlord.

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  • Cathy Malmrose
    Rental Property Investor · Lapeer, MI · Member since 2019 · 57 posts · 118 votes
    5y

    @James York I wish I could accept more section 8 tenants but they keep bringing in bedbugs and holy **** it is expensive to clean up!

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  • Joshua ChristensenPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2015 · 281 posts · 232 votes
    5y

    We have a lot of low income families in Albuquerque.  We accept Sect 8 vouchers and we are prepared for evictions.  I am heavy handed on my background checks and don't accept just anyone into our units.  Felonies, SEx crimes, drugs - No way.  Previous evictions?  No way.  I've had 50/50 luck with my Vouchers.  Some are great and others not so great.  I've had similar with Paying tenants.  

    We've opted to accept them.  Constant flow of residents when the properties turn.  We educate our residents on what they are responsible for when they move out.  

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  • Lam N.
    Rental Property Investor · Troy · Member since 2017 · 175 posts · 271 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Charles:

    @Lam N.

    Totally agree! I had a resident break into her bedroom busted up the door and frame. Then demanded it get fixed. I said “sure no problem but you are paying for it!”

    Her response and I quote” Why the @$&” I gotta pay for it, it’s the government’s apartment!” My response “No, it’s absolutely not the governments it’s ours, you just are lucky enough to live in a country that will take care of people just because they don’t want to work!” 😬🤦🏼‍♂️

     Ya, speaking of doors, for some reason this seem to be the universal thing about section 8 tenants.  They always bust the doors.  I never figured out what the hell they did to bust those doors.  And they always demanded I fix those doors on my own dime.

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  • Lam N.
    Rental Property Investor · Troy · Member since 2017 · 175 posts · 271 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Lee Carrell:

    Wow! This topic has created a ton of traffic!

    Lam N. said, "...Normal tenants (people) had to learn basic life skills to maintaining a home." Then, listed several examples of supposed "basic life skills."

    The longer you live, the more you realize there are no such things as "basic life skills" or "common sense" anymore. Many tenants did not grow up in America or even in your neighborhood. There are so many different societal beliefs, opinions, myths, and upbringing experiences that it is unrealistic to believe that everyone thinks the same as you do!

    Not everyone knows how to reset a GFCI. Not everyone turns the light off every time they leave a room. Many people don't know how to operate a programmable thermostat. Some people will pour grease down the drain and follow it with Dawn dishwashing liquid. My point is that everyone does not know what you know, and you do not know what everyone else knows!

    Some ways to combat that variance are by 1) doing a detailed screening on every potential occupant of the unit, 2) having a comprehensive lease that spells out those things that you consider important, 3) taking time to thoroughly walk the tenant through your unit showing and explaining to them how to operate everything, 4) letting them know in no uncertain terms what you will and will not tolerate, and 5) tell them to call you first if they have any questions about the unit.

    When one of us made a mistake in the military, the Seargent would ask, "What did you assume?" It is not a good idea to assume anything about your tenants. You have to ask! As landlords, we have to throw away our cookie cutters!

     Ok, I can accept that everyone has different experience and knowledge.  But you are conveniently ignoring the fact that myself and many others have said that our observation is they don't want to learn or improve themselves.  They have no skin in the game.

    Furthermore, it doesn't matter what we tell them.  Every time they have a problem, the first thing they do is call the housing authority, not the landlord.  

    They are professional victims.  They play the victim card very well.  

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  • Daruis Stanczyk
    Member since 2021 · 1 post · 0 votes
    5y

    @Lam N. I live next to them in an apartment, up all night, bang on the wall, 6 people in a studio apartment who don't go to work a day on their life. They smell like arsenic and ammonia truely horrible living conditions but the rent is cheap so saving every dollar we get to get started in the game.

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  • Amanda Bruneau
    Real Estate Agent · Providence, RI · Member since 2020 · 41 posts · 29 votes
    5y

    @Jay Hinrichs that would be interesting data to collect and I would bet money it is about 85%-90% of women collecting because the voucher is typically for people with children and government doesn't give the voucher (typically) to married couples. 

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  • Amanda Bruneau
    Real Estate Agent · Providence, RI · Member since 2020 · 41 posts · 29 votes
    5y

    @Alex T. ouch! It sounds like you have had a tough time! Where are you renting in MA? When you are doing the screening process now are you able to weed out people that you think would be a problem or are you just trying to stay away from section 8 altogether?  I recently moved to RI and they do not currently have a law that says you have to rent to section 8, BUT they are voting to make it a law! It is actually happening right now, they are trying to take away many rights of the landlord and it is so discouraging. We are fighting it, but I don't know the outcome yet. Below is what they are trying to pass. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Amanda Bruneau:

    @Jay Hinrichs that would be interesting data to collect and I would bet money it is about 85%-90% of women collecting because the voucher is typically for people with children and government doesn't give the voucher (typically) to married couples. 

    I think I recall one male who had health issues.   

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  • Alex T.
    Investor · Newton, MA · Member since 2009 · 69 posts · 19 votes
    5y

    @Amanda Bruneau ouch. Unfortunately there are more tenants than landlords voting and governments do what's popular, not what's ethical. It wouldn't be the first time in history a minority is stripped of their rights because that's what the masses want. As a landlord, you can only vote with your feet, that's why I stopped buying rentals in MA (I'm still holding on to my current ones here).

    The neighborhoods I own properties in are Chelsea and Dorchester. Both have a high ratio of Section 8 tenants since both were undesirable prior to 2010 (I bought due to gentrification and being few areas that can still cash flow here). For screening I do eviction check, previous landlord references and employer. Admittedly, my worst Section 8 tenants I inherited with the properties when I bought them. More recently I started using real estate agents that collect 1 month fee from the tenant for placing them (it filters out many undesirable tenants because they won't have the funds), but you have to double-check these tenants themselves too. Agents don't always do a thorough background check but they will check tenant's credit score, which is a good indicator of whether the tenant respects the rules or sees them more as suggestions.

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  • Dominic Kosteris
    Member since 2021 · 58 posts · 37 votes
    5y

    Sadly, a lot of negative perception to section 8 voucher holders are rooted in racism. I've had White cash renters who were cooking meth and totally trashed my house. Good management, be it a cash renter or section 8 voucher holder, will cut back on any major problems. If they do not pay market rent in an area, I could see why some might refuse to rent to a voucher holder.

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  • Alex T.
    Investor · Newton, MA · Member since 2009 · 69 posts · 19 votes
    5y

    @Dominic Kosteris you clearly have been brainwashed by identity politics and haven't read any of the actual posts in this thread where landlords explain concrete problems with Section 8 tenants they encountered in detail (that have nothing to do with race). Blaming 'racism' for everything is a political fad that started around 2013 and has only gotten worse.

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  • Carlos Ptriawan
    Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y

    I started to think the baseline of the problem is because most sec8 has no work or little work (is that true)? Is it true that they never work? This creates the mentality of never taking responsibility and playing victim mindset as @Lam N. said.

    In the old communist soviet union, even when government public housing is given (during the Kruschev era), the tenant still has to work (hard) and stand in line for 2 hours for a loaf of bread. No work, no bread.

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  • Amanda Bruneau
    Real Estate Agent · Providence, RI · Member since 2020 · 41 posts · 29 votes
    5y

    @Dominic Kosteris my one experience with section 8 was not with a minority family. It was just a family that choose to take advantage of me and the system. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Dominic Kosteris:

    Sadly, a lot of negative perception to section 8 voucher holders are rooted in racism. I've had White cash renters who were cooking meth and totally trashed my house. Good management, be it a cash renter or section 8 voucher holder, will cut back on any major problems. If they do not pay market rent in an area, I could see why some might refuse to rent to a voucher holder.

    Depends on where your at on the demographic side of things.. out here in Oregon 90% of section 8 tenant are white or some version of it.

    bad tenant is bad tenant..  no matter the color as we all know.

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Carlos Ptriawan:

    I started to think the baseline of the problem is because most sec8 has no work or little work (is that true)? Is it true that they never work? This creates the mentality of never taking responsibility and playing victim mindset as @Lam N. said.

    In the old communist soviet union, even when government public housing is given (during the Kruschev era), the tenant still has to work (hard) and stand in line for 2 hours for a loaf of bread. No work, no bread.

    I would say the vast majority of Section 8 tenants actually have some sort of job.. problem is its simply not enough revenue to live on and raise kids especially the ones that have a lot of kids..  This is how they pay their co pay.. there is 100% rent subsidies for sure and SNAP and so on.. so I have no doubt there is a fair amount that DONT work but i dont think its at all the majority.. unfortunately its the lower paying jobs .. and only one bread winner So they need help with rent..  

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  • Kaylane Davis
    Real Estate Broker · GA · Member since 2018 · 36 posts · 10 votes
    5y

    @James York section 8 used to pay market rents and sometimes above and now they don't, also in my market now they make a lot!!! Of allowances for over crowding in homes(which contributes to property damage) with there stipulations for occupancy its actually pretty horrible, I myself do not agree with HUD allowing individuals to perpetually be "low income" receipts for basically all their lives if they choose and allowing individuals to remain on $0 income status for extended periods of time is just a horrible horrible system. I manage several low income/ Tax credit multifamily communities so I see this daily and it does create a generational cycle where as the kids and grandkids never want to leave the communities. They should put and enforce a life time limit on the system and enforce all the HUD programs that are centered around people becoming self sufficient and transitioning into Homeownership. What they allow now does create entitlement in the wrong individuals and they abuse the system thats just my thoughts. I think the reason some labdlords are against it because, Landlords got in while the getting was good with HUD and did not do the proper checks and balances and due diligence on applicants because they were excited about the guaranteed monthly income and in turn they rented to undesirable applicants and were left holding the bag on repairs, ect. I do still think HUD (section8) is a good program depending on your market and if you do your due diligence as far as qualifying applicants they should not be an exception to the requirements. I meet really good people who do qualify for low income programs and section 8 vouchers but can't find housing anymore because landlords are now far and few and a lot of the larger PM Companies don't take vouchers either. It can go really good or really bad but all recipients should not be lumped up together.

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  • Kaylane Davis
    Real Estate Broker · GA · Member since 2018 · 36 posts · 10 votes
    5y

    @Lam N. It is true what you said about tenants being well informed those are the best tenants, there is a pretty huge literacy issue with a lot of people I do see it a lot with section 8 and low income tenants, I do try to encourage, educate and inform my residents some want it and others don't it can be a lot to deal with im in full agreement with that most days I feel like a therapist or guidance counselor but my market residents are no walk in the park either and the fact that they pay full rent keeps them in denial about their literacy and or mental issues

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:

    The housing choice voucher program doesn't pay market here because they don't pay extra for things like remodeled kitchens and baths, garages, AC, washer/dryer hookups -- things tenants like and are willing to pay extra for. The hud standard payment for fair market rent (FMR) on a one-bedroom in my lowest income zip, including utilities is $659. My understanding is that the most rent that can be used for calculation of the HUD payment amount is 110% of this hud standard payment. I believe the tenant can pay more (on negotiated lease amount) so long as the tenant isn't rent burdened (paying more than 40% of income). In this zip code I get 650.00 plus all utilities (gas, electric, water/sewer/trash) paid by tenant. It is high for that zip code but my units have unusually nice ammenities (especially for the money)

     I was thinking about trying it in light of all the recent eviction moratoriums but then we didn't have any move outs for a long time until end of Feb. I'm not really refusing them but after I looked into it and read about the rules, I don't think they will pay me enough. https://www.akronhousing.org/p... , https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfil... I don't want to mess around for 30 days going the hud rental process only to find out they don't pay enough after losing a month's rent. These will rent quick.

    In Jackson MS is the complete opposite  Section 8 pays HIGHER than market ergo the affinity for the program by owners of said properties.

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  • Rich Hupper
    Broker / Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 351 votes
    5y

    All the section 8 I have dealt with are completely helpless individuals. They have zero accountability. I have seen them sign leases upside down, before I have to correct them. All they want to do is paint their nails and watch a reality tv shows. They are exactly what the government wants. A dependent automaton. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Rich Hupper:

    All the section 8 I have dealt with are completely helpless individuals. They have zero accountability. I have seen them sign leases upside down, before I have to correct them. All they want to do is paint their nails and watch a reality tv shows. They are exactly what the government wants. A dependent automaton. 

    OK this is a little over the top  :)..  

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  • Stonewall Burks
    Member since 2021 · 22 posts · 11 votes
    5y

    @James York dope book

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  • Curtis Mears
    Property Manager · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 596 votes
    5y

    @James York

    Because I will never partner with the goverment, the most incompetent partner you could ever imagine.

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