Replacing "Landlord" with "Housing Provider"

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Replacing "Landlord" with "Housing Provider"

Laura Guy
Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes

Our team in Indiana has hired a lobbyist to represent the interests of housing providers and investors.  One of our first objectives is to replace the word "landlord" with "housing provider" in ALL pieces of legislation.  The "lords of the land" in history refers to landowners that essentially provided housing and oversaw most aspects of tenants lives.  We are housing providers that provide a product/service in exchange for money.  That is it. However, we need to find a term that replaces "landlord' for commercial providers as well - any ideas?  

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Account Closed
Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
5y

The entire point of language is to communicate. When the language we employ fails to create an understanding between people and further creates a misunderstanding between people, the language is a failed one. The use of ambiguous terms is never helpful for the purpose of clarity, and can be disastrous when used in legislation. Politicians love ambiguous terms and employ them endlessly.

The term "housing provider" does not well describe the property owner within the business of residential rental property. It is ambiguous and suggests a role that is false. I own property and I rent it to people for them to use however, they have provided the housing for themselves, not the other way around. I provide housing for myself and my dependents; my employer does not do that for me, my bank does not do that for me, and the builder who constructed my house does not do that for me - we are not all housing providers, only I am. The term "housing provider" suggests a dependent is involved.

I am a property owner. I provide a leasing opportunity to people who are in need of housing. If anything, we are lease providers and not housing providers. As it turns out, more specific terms for landlord and tenant already exist in the legal world, they are lessor and lessee. Look at that, the terms are specific to exactly what it is we all are doing, in no uncertain terms. Perhaps what's really needed is a lesson in vocabulary.

With all due respect, I think this endeavor is dumb. There is nothing that needs to be solved and further, the suggestion of using the term "housing provider" creates unnecessary ambiguity when the entire rationale for the change according to the OP is to eliminate ambiguity. This is an incredible waste of time and money that in my opinion makes things worse, not better for landlords or tenants or anyone. Frankly, using a term like 'housing provider' in this situation is downright thoughtless and lazy. If it's all that bothersome and persons are bent on making a change, use lessor and lessee. People can Google what those terms mean if they don't already know. Even then though, what about all the legislation that already uses the terms landlord and tenant??? LOL. Is someone going to go back and get all those pieces of legislation changed too? How about the ambiguity of having one term used in the past and another used now and into the future? Will the term "housing provider" be deemed inappropriate in the future and then someone will go back and change everything again? Will we have three different terms for the same thing depending on when the legislation was written? Good grief. Leave well enough alone.

This whole thing stinks of PC BS to me.

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Matt M.lol!  love it

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Christina M. I definitely agree we need to take more of an active role in the community - we've also discussed having regular, perhaps quarterly, times where we help a struggling homeowner with repairs/maintenance, or organize a community clean up.... I'd love to know what other cities are doing... Thanks for your input! 

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Jim Spatzenfeld This is helpful - thank you! 

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Garrett Cannizzo Our #1 goal in Indiana is to tackle moratoriums.  We have hired lobbyist Evan McMahon, also chairman of Libertarian party in Indiana, to draft legislation to lobby during sessions.  

    I appreciate your point on changing phrases. However, I also think that we have take a lesson out of their book stop taking the defensive and start taking the offensive.   I realize it's an uphill battle for the people in our industry, but I think it's one worth fighting.  How would you suggest fighting the false narrative? 

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @John teachou When I come on Bigger Pockets I generally expect that I'm in a forum of my peers and that we are all experiencing similar struggles, which I believe we are.  There is constructive criticism, and there's an attack.  People stop listening to you when you attack.  I suggest you work on your communication skills. 

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  • Christina M.
    Rental Property Investor · PA · Member since 2017 · 69 posts · 60 votes
    5y

    @Laura Guy my point was I give back to the community through my rentals (tenants).

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Laura Guy:

    @Garrett Cannizzo Our #1 goal in Indiana is to tackle moratoriums.  We have hired lobbyist Evan McMahon, also chairman of Libertarian party in Indiana, to draft legislation to lobby during sessions.  


     Tackling moratoriums is a fine endeavor. All I got to say is don't go making things worse. Say what you mean and mean what you say and be consistent is my two cents.

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  • Tim Miller
    Rental Property Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 383 posts · 382 votes
    5y

    @Merritt S. AMEN!!! The very first thought that came to me was section 8 housing. I have never been a "Housing Provider" and do not plan to be one.

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  • Curt Bixel
    Rental Property Investor · Columbus OH (columbus, oh) · Member since 2020 · 143 posts · 71 votes
    5y

    I think the term landlord may have bad connotations, but I think it has a solid place in legal language.  Lessor and Lessee probably have the same solid place.  I would not want to trade a word with a better connotation than landlord if it has the possibility of worse usefulness in court due to ambiguity.  

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Tim Miller:

    @Merritt S. AMEN!!! The very first thought that came to me was section 8 housing. I have never been a "Housing Provider" and do not plan to be one.

     Well, you do (probably) pay taxes so...there's that...lol...you housing provider you.

    Little Johnny is five years old and has recently learned to speak. He comes up to a table of adults and loudly speaks a cuss word. What do the adults do? Do they all gasp? Do they ignore him? What does Johnny learn if they all gasp? What does he learn if they ignore him? What is he likely to do in the future in either case? Hmm...

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Curt Bixel:

    I think the term landlord may have bad connotations, but I think it has a solid place in legal language.  Lessor and Lessee probably have the same solid place.  I would not want to trade a word with a better connotation than landlord if it has the possibility of worse usefulness in court due to ambiguity.  

     Bravo. I have a bad habit of taking the long way around with my words. You said it 3 sentences.

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  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
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    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y

    @Laura Guy  

    As far as terminology you can try to change it, but it won't affect perception. I don't care for the term "housing provider", because I think there are better terms that are already widely in use. Residential property manager and Commercial property manager are the universal terms that are the best descriptive alternatives to landlord. These are the terms widely used by industry organizations like the NAA. These groups have lobbying efforts of their own and certification programs for property manager. Most states even have "property manager" licensing, so it makes sense to use an industry standard term versus coming up with something new. They are better terms because "housing provider" implies property owner, whereas property manager can be an owner operator or just an agent of the owner. You may be an owner operator, but not everyone is.

    I am a proud landlord and I believe the way we change perception is by raising the standards that we operate by. A bad landlord doesn't magically become good when they are called a housing provider. I have made thousands of posts in these forums that were aimed at helping landlords follow the law, treat tenants better and professionally run their business. Many are new and just uneducated on the laws and fair business practice. 

    That public perception of a landlord comes from real world experiences with landlords. If you want to change the perception, raise the bar in your own business and hold your colleagues to a higher standard. Rebranding won't do anything if tenants are treated the same. The other challenge is media bias, which is against landlords, investors, businesses or anyone with money or power. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @JD Martin:
    Originally posted by @Laura Guy:

    Our team in Indiana has hired a lobbyist to represent the interests of housing providers and investors.  One of our first objectives is to replace the word "landlord" with "housing provider" in ALL pieces of legislation.  The "lords of the land" in history refers to landowners that essentially provided housing and oversaw most aspects of tenants lives.  We are housing providers that provide a product/service in exchange for money.  That is it. However, we need to find a term that replaces "landlord' for commercial providers as well - any ideas?  

     I vote for "God of Thunder, Overseer of all under the Heavens" 🤣

    Personally, I'm not at all a fan of "housing provider" as it sounds like something that's being given away as a right. I don't see anyone calling Wal-Mart "Cheetos provider". How about "property owner", because that is what we are regardless of the relationship. Sometimes you provide housing in exchange for something other than money, or sometimes for nothing at all or tax benefits, etc.

    In my timber days  it was Landowner  at all times..  you have land and you have an owner.  regardless if there is any improvements on it.

    Sounds like all this stuff going on these days with regard to all the social issues and whats right and wrong.. like  Master bed room is now Primary  ..  of course in other country's  ( Canada they always called them the ensuite room )  not that a bathroom in a bedroom creates a suite but I guess to Canadians it does  LOL.. 

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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
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    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y

    I wonder what George would think of this effort, were he alive today? (Workplace safe, for those who know George):

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  • Dave Skinner
    Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 11 votes
    5y

    Sounds like a waste of money and cave-in to the politically correct. Whats the old saying? "Sticks and stones". Call me what you may, just don't let the rent be late! lol. Seriously, you hired a lobbyist to change the name of land lords.... What is the world coming to?

    6Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Colleen F.:

    @Account Closed  I do like lessor and lessee. It is not used in a  confrontational way these days but I hadn't thought about that difference. 

    @Laura Guy If you want to separate things out you can say residential lessor. It is the legal term and this is legislation. housing provider does sound a little weird to me. 

    the issue with lessor and lessee is most renters wont know what each is you will have to explain it.. just like Gantor or Grantee on deeds most have no clue which is which.. 

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  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    5y

    I don't like the term "landlord" because it isn't gender neutral.  Sure, there is also the word landlady.  But, if you are referring to a group of lessors, the default word to use is always the masculine version.  Just like in a gazillion other examples within the English language.

    I avoid the terms "landlord"/"landlady" as much as possible, for those reasons.  But, at the end of the day, that's the most commonly used term for lessors, so I sometimes default to it even if I don't like it.

    So, while I'm all for making an effort to slowly try and change the more common term of "landlord" to something else, "housing provider" is an abysmal choice.  It's too general and ambiguous.  There are all kinds of businesses and "roles" that could be described as "housing provider", other than being a property owner.  

    Lessor/lessee is what I use in my leases.  But they also don't feel like natural sounding words that the average person would use.  Though it will be an uphill, almost impossible battle, no matter what word we try get into more common usage. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Laura Guy:

    To all if you spewing the hate and criticism @Nick Barber@Lynnette E.@Nick Barber@John Teachout What are you all DOING (besides getting on Bigger Pockets behind the safety of your computer screens) to protect and promote our businesses?  Because at this point in time myself and my lobbyist are drafting legislation to protect Hoosiers from any further moratoriums as well as trying to create a marketing campaign to enhance and EDUCATE the public of HOUSING PROVIDERS and the reality of the nature of our businesses. And I'm about $10,000 out of pocket and hundreds of hours of my personal time out.  Your attacks are frankly a complete waste of time, poorly constructed, and attention seeking.  

    Wow Laura  BP is not RA RA everyone has an opinion I don't see anyone being disrespectful to you.. They don't agree with you and they are indicating why they don't..   U want to talk about negative Bias just look at the politics in Portland Oregon and the negative bias.. the one lady that almost won for major was super weird.. she was only going to attack out of state corporate landlords.. and leave the local mom and pops alone.. that was in her position papers..  there is no denying the fact that there are certain professions that have these negative bias's

    car salesmen    Lawyer to a certain extent if you on the @$$ end of a lawsuit  Timeshare salesmen / women and the list goes on.

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  • Linda S.
    Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Joe Splitrock just nailed this 100%

    @Laura Guy, if you're trying to improve the perception of landlords/housing providers/whatever, why not focus on starting a media campaign or a movement for good?   Give the media something positive to talk about then!   Paying lobbyists is such a waste of money.      If it's a passion of yours to improve landlords reputation, maybe create a forum or be a tenant advocate--- so many better options out there!

    Also, I've seen this happen often in really sketchy apartment complexes... after a while, they get so many bad reviews online, they just change their name--every couple of years!  it's new "branding" .... Doesn't solve any problems, just new name-- only a matter of time before new complaints, and then another new name!

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Dave Skinner if you read my complete post - you will see that I hired a lobbyist for the state of Indiana to represent the interests of Indiana investors and housing providers.  ONE of the issues we are tackling IS a media campaign @Linda S.in an effort to bring more accuracy to our business and how we help communities.  Our main objective is to draft legislation that takes away the right of the governor/state to have the right to enact a moratorium of any kind, as it is unconstitutional on a state (and federal) level - but at the moment, the Supreme Court decided not to rule on the issue since it is (allegedly) expiring so soon.  One of the OTHER issues we are tackling is changing verbiage.  Agree or don't disagree, I don't care - but read the entire post before you jump to conclusions. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Linda S.:

    @Joe Splitrock just nailed this 100%

    @Laura Guy, if you're trying to improve the perception of landlords/housing providers/whatever, why not focus on starting a media campaign or a movement for good?   Give the media something positive to talk about then!   Paying lobbyists is such a waste of money.      If it's a passion of yours to improve landlords reputation, maybe create a forum or be a tenant advocate--- so many better options out there!

    Also, I've seen this happen often in really sketchy apartment complexes... after a while, they get so many bad reviews online, they just change their name--every couple of years!  it's new "branding" .... Doesn't solve any problems, just new name-- only a matter of time before new complaints, and then another new name!

    Kind of reminds me of when at one time I was a Hardmoney lender  ( shyster lender)  In the Timber and land business  ( rape the forest) and was developing subdivisions  ( big bad developer )  Now the state of Oregon and Washington has very strong media campaigns on why Forestry is good and why we need it etc.. Never seen anyone advocate for high interest rate lenders LOL but we are sorely needed to keep rental stock coming ESPECIALLY in a place like Indiana I have done over 500 loans in the Indy MSA of which 97% of those properties went into production as rentals for GASP Landlords and out of state investor .. And we are now building new construction in Indy  ( Fountain Square Bates ) dont see anyone lobbying for us there either.. and I am darn certain many of the existing residences dont like what we are doing.

    Just cant please the entire population..  Landlord perception is just one small part of the real estate cog.

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Jay Hinrichs My position is that the government - in OR especially - rent controls, having to pay moving expenses, having to give tenants the right to buy properties... in CA being unable to screen tenants, run credit reports, or check for previous evictions - is a huge threat to our businesses.  I believe that the government would like to take over all property entirely.  And I will fight that however I can. 

    In Indiana, our primary objective is to pass legislation barring the state or governor from being allowed to enforce a moratorium of any kind.  What is frustrating and disrespectful to me is that people are telling me to stop wasting my time and calling it "dumb" or "PC BS"one person even wrote what I'm doing is "offensive as heck" are you serious? ...  I'm not lobbying to this group- I'd just be preaching to the choir....Im lobbying to the masses of people who don't have a clue what we do our how what we do is actually beneficial to them.  And in doing so, it's important to try different approaches other than "you're idiots". It's ineffective in ANY arena. 

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  • Laura Guy
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Account ClosedWe are trying to get the most possible out of our lobbyist while we have him.  Tackling moratoriums is our main goal.  But improving the reputation of our industry is a part of that too.  

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Laura Guy:

    @Jay Hinrichs My position is that the government - in OR especially - rent controls, having to pay moving expenses, having to give tenants the right to buy properties... in CA being unable to screen tenants, run credit reports, or check for previous evictions - is a huge threat to our businesses.  I believe that the government would like to take over all property entirely.  And I will fight that however I can. 

    In Indiana, our primary objective is to pass legislation barring the state or governor from being allowed to enforce a moratorium of any kind.  What is frustrating and disrespectful to me is that people are telling me to stop wasting my time and calling it "dumb" or "PC BS"one person even wrote what I'm doing is "offensive as heck" are you serious? ...  I'm not lobbying to this group- I'd just be preaching to the choir....Im lobbying to the masses of people who don't have a clue what we do our how what we do is actually beneficial to them.  And in doing so, it's important to try different approaches other than "you're idiots". It's ineffective in ANY arena.

    I get it  but reality is renters vote and they will vote for what benefits them not what benefits a landlord ( housing provider) What we need is more renters to get out of the rental TRAP of throwing their money away and become owners..  That way there are more owners that vote and will probably vote for tougher rights for owners not less.   This is what happens when a majority of the voters rent  And if one does not like the laws and cant change them you get out of the business or move to an area you like better like whats currently happening in PDX its going to back fire on the ultra liberal politicians in a very big way in Portland there will not be more housing there will be less and it will be more expensive not less. 

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  • James B.Pro Member
    Investor · Monterey Area, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 81 votes
    5y

    @Laura Guy

    Hi Laura, serious questions, as you're devoting time/money/resources to this issue. What happens in the future when the term, "Housing Provider", and the other terms that you replace, "Landlord", with become either offensive or out of fashion?

    Will they be replaced? Will the new terms be legally compelled to be used?

    I agree that bad actors exist on all sides in every industry. While we're at it, let's change the terms, "Mortgage", and "Amortization", because they derive from the French/Latins roots of death and to kill? 

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