Did I dodge a bullet or was I too suspicious?

Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

When in doubt-- trust your gut. Zero chance I'd ever rent to her, and I do C to D- rentals!

I think I might be able to help you with your tenant/landlord misunderstanding. "My landlord is deceased" means "I just got evicted or almost was evicted, I'm going to give you a sad sob story as to why you can't contact them as they'll probably tell you what a bad tenant I was." Please also see "My landlord is selling the house." If you are unsure, do the real estate assessors website to determine the owner, and google them-- if they just died their obituary will pop up!

Another translation. "I always just cash my check, don't get it deposited" actually means "I only do things under the table, no-- I don't have a stable job"-- (exceptions obviously for hairstylists/waitresses/service industry-- all of those would still have a small pay check showing the hours) Google should really do a real life screening translator to help people screen.

Also remember-- with really good tenants who know they can and will pay, most don't try and give you double, bad tenants do that because they know they won't get approved by themselves, so they try and sweeten the deal to get picked. Everything about this says NO. NO.NO!

2 Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

Some think we are in the finding the perfect renter business.

We are actually in the bullet dodging business.

Anytime there are multiple, long or quick, vague , non-verifiable answers? It's a bullet.

Prevuous LL dead and a relative? Thats a double-tap.

Usually they just say their previious deal was a roommate situation and or the place burned down or was sold and the owner moved out of state and sadly, their contact info is unknown. LOL

in my world what borrower is trying to pull a fast one and hide their past .. so very common in our industry.

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1 Reply

Jim K.

Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Jacob Beg:

I had a rental application from someone with poor credit. She furnished paystubs showing a very handsome salary and was more than qualified, willing to make two months security deposit and start the lease immediately meaning immediate cash-flow.

She produced a guarantor who had a marginal, but steady job and a poor credit as well.

She went to the property a few times, wanted landlord to fix numerous items which are expected of any genuine tenant as most people like to have a decent place and want things fixed if they are paying a handsome rent in excess of $2k.

I wanted to rent it quickly so keen to work with her but something did not sit well with me. I realized she was using some sort of app for phone number (not a proper mobile number). I am not that tech savvy but figured she might have good reasons.

He previous landlord was deceased, she said it was her aunt anyway so no real way to check reference and she was staying with mom. She slipped up that mom had a decent gov't job, but would not produce her as a guarantor.

Lease was ready, keys almost ready to be handed in as I got seduced by the funds. I had a gut feeling something was off. I questioned that I cannot find her employer other than a website. The person verifying the income seemed like someone who may know the lady. Income verified was different to what was on the pay stub.

When questioned when she got paid last and whether she can produced a pay check. She stuttered last pay check was in Aug yet claims that she gets paid biweekly. When asked whether she produced a bank account to show track record of her income being deposited, she claimed she cashes her checks so no deposits to show.

At this point, I had a gut feeling that the employer is either a fake or something else is off. There is also an issue of someone making close to 80K but the employer is based out of a very small office in not so good area of town.

I asked for W-2 so may be there will be federal tax ID to show that employer is genuine. I don't think she will be able to furnish it.

So did I miss a bullet or was it someone who could probably afford the place (hence the large deposit and prorated rent of 5K) but went the wrong way about it. Or did my suspicion got the best of me?

No, you done good.

It's been my experience that the kind of people I want fall over themselves to show me that they're the kind of people I want, and thoroughly and convincingly explain discrepancies in the documents they produce. This is not that. I've rented to ex-cons for $650/month who were more forthcoming that this prospect (very successfully, I would add).

Quality tenants know what they're worth and know you want them.

0 Reply

Jim K.

Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

5y

"I make $80K a year, but I cash all my checks so there's no record of deposit..." Broke-a**, bit**-a**, crooked-a** grifter.

3 Reply

Heidi M.

Rental Property Investor · Reno, NV · Member since 2013 · 77 posts · 31 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg you dodged a bullet. I wouldn’t put any Moore efforts into this one.

0 Reply

Michael Gansberg

Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 388 posts · 563 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg - go you. You have landlord spidey-senses, you'd be evicting this person for non-payment in month 2(or month 3 at best.)

I have tenants who've been on Covid-rent vacation for over a year- they see the impending end of their rent vacation coming, and I see them applying to my other apartments in the area. It's pretty funny, actually, because my listings don't let them connect the dots(the dots that I'm their landlord, and they're applying for an apartment owned by a guy they've been stealing from for quite awhile.) I ask for a landlord reference before setting up a showing(because once they go to the showing, the cat would be out of the bag- they'd know my management by sight or phone number.)

But when I ask for a landlord reference, they've all gone silent. I have to admit, I'm fantasizing about the day when one of these people I'm evicting gives me a phony landlord reference, and I can respond, "Oh, now I recognize your name, you're my tenant!" During these times, when the government has made evictions almost impossible(in NY State, anyway,) you have to screen as though your financial life depends on it. Because it does.

I'm challenging one eviction now- in NY, you can challenge a hardship declaration. My tenant posts her frequent vacations on her mostly public Facebook page. So I took screenshots of many of her vacations, can't wait for the court date next month.

5 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Originally posted by @Jonathan Greene:

I only needed to read this "I had a rental application from someone with poor credit." to say you dodged a bullet.

Sad state of affairs when you need to be a private detective and spend all this time trying to figure out who to rent to LOL

And it's even worse to try to track them down for collections if you don't do it "right" up front.

0 Reply

Lori Buffington

Investor · north Idaho · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 8 votes

5y

I'd say you dodged a bullet. Every time I rent to someone who is 100% in the beginning...I regret it. If your gut says something is off...it probably is. In today's market there is PLENTY of demand and plenty of great renters. Why rent to a marginal renter with poor credit? Why take a chance at at time when you may not be able to evict tomorrow due to covid?

0 Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Originally posted by @Jonathan Greene:

I only needed to read this "I had a rental application from someone with poor credit." to say you dodged a bullet.

Sad state of affairs when you need to be a private detective and spend all this time trying to figure out who to rent to LOL

And it's even worse to try to track them down for collections if you don't do it "right" up front.

well if you choose poorly up front then total waste of time and energy to chase them.. even better than average tenants its a waste of time and energy. your landlords not debt collectors. well right as I said that maybe you landlords are just that debt collectors.

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Dell J.

Member since 2010 · 210 posts · 158 votes

5y

I think you know the answer. The only thing I would add is next time dont waste a bunch of time entertaining a tenant that you dont think will be a good tenant. Once you see the red flags it should be "Next!!"

1 Reply

Isaac S.

Member since 2018 · 563 posts · 562 votes

5y

I bet she would have tried to pay with third party check from her uncle who just won a sweepstakes and the check would be for triple the move in and she would have wanted you refund the difference before the check cleared....

1 Reply

Ned CareyPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes

5y

When I check a reference I first ask "How do you know this person." they don't know whether to pretend to be an employer or personal reference.

4 Reply

Jacob Beg

OP

Woodbridge, VA · Member since 2017 · 122 posts · 44 votes

5y

@Ned Carey That is quite clever. This is why BP is so useful, the collective knowledge of others.

Had another one yesterday offering 8k upfront. Wanted to meet then and there and just “loved” the property but went all mute when I reminded that I need all the income docs and reference checks. Had a funny feeling that there was some connection with the other one or I could be wrong.

I think there is a misconception with certain tenants that providing a somewhat larger rent/deposit will guarantee a rental. I am sure it’s also a gimmick to con someone who is desperate to rent a difficult property.

I definitely think I had a lucky escape. Those who furnish fake docs must be setting themselves up for criminal charges if they are committing a fraud by misrepresenting their financials.

1 Reply

Steven Goldman

Lender · PA · Member since 2019 · 535 posts · 461 votes

5y

@jonathangreene Spot on!

0 Reply

David Dachtera

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

@Jacob Beg,

You may have been a bit slow responding to your instincts, but it seems in the end you came out well.

Yeah - don't like any of it, either. My vote: You did good. Don't rent to her. Too many holes in her story.

0 Reply

Ned CareyPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes

5y

@Jacob Beg
Those who furnish fake docs must be setting themselves up for criminal charges.

Yes but my guess is relatively low chance of getting caught. I recently read an article, perhaps her on the BP blog, about how to spot fake pay stubs.

0 Reply

Arman Jay Tigran

Rental Property Investor · Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2018 · 24 posts · 6 votes

5y

I only had one tenant that I had to sign a lease with myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but my system is very common to what you will find if you googled “how to screen tenants”. Good credit score, paycheck 3x rent, no evictions, etc. but the way I see it, there are also people who have had a bad year, and on their way to recover. So I will let one of my criteria’s fail and still accept a tenant (except evictions) as long as they provide some extra information to put me at ease. Most common example would be the low credit score. If they can show a history of it being good, and then it dropped for a period and now it’s trending up, with a good reason why it dropped (lost a job and had to use credit cards to pay for living expenses for a while) in my eyes it’s ok.

But you see more than 1 …no red but an orange flag… then I would give them an opportunity to provide extra information to cover for it.

Back to your situation. You definitely dodged a bullet, I agree with the first guy who said “all I needed to see is bad credit score” but only because that was just the beginning. All other stuff was too shady in my eyes. I would also say that there was another person providing info on how to check a shady w-2 employee… I think that was a great way to check, but I also don’t think it is landlords responsibility to go to that far to verify someone. After a conversation with the employer if you feel something is off, that’s all you need to close the file on that potential tenant and move one. It’s always better to skip a month of income to get a much better tenant that pays on time, is not a problem to deal with, communicates well and so on.

0 Reply

Ned CareyPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes

5y

I wrote above
When I check a reference I first ask "How do you know this person." they
don't know whether to pretend to be an employer or personal reference.

Another trick is to say "He/she makes $X amount a month. Is this correct?" The amount for X should WRONG, it should be more than what was actually claimed. A friend would lie and agree, an employer is not likely to lie. A real employer may be reluctant to give information. However they will be much more likely to confirm information.

2 Reply

Brian Sherman

Investor · 95821 · Member since 2020 · 50 posts · 17 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg keep in mind that there will always be another tenant. Why go with uncertainty when you can wait a little longer and choose certainty?

0 Reply

Joe HammelBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit, MI · Member since 2018 · 614 posts · 666 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg

Yeah poor credit is a solid sign everything else you’re feeling is valid. Things should look pretty clean…

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Daniel SmythPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2019 · 471 posts · 342 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg

Any tax records can be forged or made up and given to you.

You verify employment by speaking with the book keeper of the employer and the immediate supervisor of the tenant to be.

Phone numbers are a dime a dozen, and can be changed almost daily, so let's get put of the 80s already.

I require my tenants to have a bank account in the town of the property that is maintained in good standing for the term of the lease.

Maintaining a bank account tells me that the tenant applicant has been screened and identity verified enough for a bank, so this is a good thing.

Trust but verify!

It's not a girlfriend, it's a business!

2k+ rent is not chump change. Your property is not productive when a squatter is found and then protected from eviction by courts that refuse to follow their own rules!

No need to say why. Just say no, and move on.

An empty house is more valuable than a house with someone who cannot or will not pay.

Our government has made a precedent in allowing the courts to ignore eviction needs.

They will do so again!

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0 Reply

Lynnette E.

Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

When I have doubt about employment or past addresses, I look at the credit report. It often has several past employers and past addresses. If the credit check addresses and work do not match the applicant's I question what the applicant said.

0 Reply

Mark Brown

Contractor · Webster, TX · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 75 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg. No doubt you dodged a bullet. In addition to what everyone else has said, I’m always wary about people that want to move in right away. Responsible tenants who have their act together dont wait to the last minute to find a place to live. They know when their lease ends and begin looking before their move out date.

On the importance of the credit score, this is why I like to pull the actual credit report to see why their scores are low. Some debts like unpaid medical bills or student loans may impact their scores, but it’s not as bad as not paying their car note or having past debt from apartments.

1 Reply

Jeff Wydra

Rental Property Investor · Montréal, QC Canada · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 17 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg gut feeling goes a long way. Always go with the gut.

I had one prospective tenant show up, a nice family, everyone was dressed up nice, even the kids. But too nice. Like the kids were wearing suits and a bowtie, it was super cute, but a little weird. Then the husband turned out to only be a "friend" who was helping her out. Then when I called her referral something seemed off. It was too good and too casual, like he was expecting my call. Did some digging. Looked on google maps at her previous/current address (which was not in such a good part of town). On street view as pure luck would have it, I could see a "for rent" sign on her building and the number was not the same one she gave me. People change numbers I thought, and the building could have been sold since. But I decided to call just in case. Turned out this was the REAL number for her landlord and this poor lady started to vent about how she hadn't paid rent in months and she's trying to get rid of her! She told me not to touch her with a 10ft pole. Long story short my gut feeling had been telling me from the start that something was off, and it turned out be right. I always trust my gut.

2 Reply

Jennifer L.

Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 246 posts · 183 votes

5y

@Jacob Beg You dodged a bullet for sure, but the big problem here is that you don't have clearly defined standards for accepting an applicant. If your unit needs repairs, get that done before showing the unit. This is probably why you were left with only one applicant to vet. Have a minimum credit score that you are willing to accept and stick to it. Have a minimum income to rent ratio and stick to it. Require references that are non-family and stick to it. (I always contact the second to last landlord, as they wouldn't be potentially motivated to give a unwarranted favorable review to get rid of a problem tenant.) I require to see the last two paystubs and the last two months of bank statements. You want to see how the money is coming in and out of the account. Do they have a cushion? Or are they barely making ends meet?

Finally, do an actual credit and background check. That way, you will know what kind of loans they have outstanding and whether they have been sued. If you can check local courthouse records, that is a bonus, as you can sometimes see things there that a background check might miss.

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Did I dodge a bullet or was I too suspicious?

Did I dodge a bullet or was I too suspicious?

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