Property Manager · Boise, ID · Member since 2021 · 119 posts · 48 votes
I have an inquiry about our dog policy. She says she has 2 dogs. She's been sketchy about details, I asked how old and how big and she said, "1 and 3." After 2 more times of asking more specifically she said 75 lb and 120 lbs. Keep in mind, this is a 1400 sq ft. townhouse that does not have a private yard. I told her I'd have to discuss it (I don't really, it's my decision) because that is twice the size we typically allow. Then she says "The bigger one is the ESA." Which means the Mastiff is currently 1 yr old and 75 lbs. 🤯 There's no way I want 2 100+lb dogs in my newly built rental.
ESA are protected. I don't think I can even say "You can't have 2 dogs that size" because the ESA isn't supposed to count against her. I, of course, would insist on documentation and would follow up with the doctor. But how do I word this safely? I was thinking something like, "ESA aside, we would not be able to accommodate a 75 lb dog."
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
4y
@Amanda Thompson you should have shut down the conversation when she failed to answer your question correctly the first time. Just stop responding to her and she'll likely go away.
It's too late now, so you need a different tactic. You don't have another renter lined up, but you can cause delays or use other methods to scare her away.
Your marketing should always say, "animals negotiable." You can even be more specific with "one small animal negotiable" or something like that. This gives you an opportunity to shut people down quickly. When someone has two animals, you can tell them you only allow one. If she claims one is an ESA so she technically only has one pet, then you can tell her that the pet requires a $500 non-refundable deposit and an extra $100 a month for the pet. Completely legal and she'll likely disappear.
Another option is to utilize various delay tactics, though I don't personally like this option. Don't say anything right now and keep marketing. Save her number in your contacts and if she calls again, let it go to voicemail. Make her call at least twice before calling back. Then make excuses about being busy, having other interested parties, you don't accept pets, or whatever. If she pushes, tell her you need her application and a request for reasonable accommodation and a letter from her doctor that is within the same state and less than one year old. Let her know you will be calling them to verify authenticity. Take your time verifying. This will scare most people away or gives you enough time to find another renter.
Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
4y
For what it's worth.
I had a 140lb mastiff for years. They're huge, low energy, low risk dogs. They're just big. And they make awesome ESA / Service dogs because they are big so you can lean on them/ sturdy ect.
Check with your insurance carrier as some breeds aren’t covered or require additional liability coverage. I do not allow any breeds larger than a Labrador in my single family rentals and larger than a goldfish in my multi-family.
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
4y
@Amanda Thompson you should have shut down the conversation when she failed to answer your question correctly the first time. Just stop responding to her and she'll likely go away.
It's too late now, so you need a different tactic. You don't have another renter lined up, but you can cause delays or use other methods to scare her away.
Your marketing should always say, "animals negotiable." You can even be more specific with "one small animal negotiable" or something like that. This gives you an opportunity to shut people down quickly. When someone has two animals, you can tell them you only allow one. If she claims one is an ESA so she technically only has one pet, then you can tell her that the pet requires a $500 non-refundable deposit and an extra $100 a month for the pet. Completely legal and she'll likely disappear.
Another option is to utilize various delay tactics, though I don't personally like this option. Don't say anything right now and keep marketing. Save her number in your contacts and if she calls again, let it go to voicemail. Make her call at least twice before calling back. Then make excuses about being busy, having other interested parties, you don't accept pets, or whatever. If she pushes, tell her you need her application and a request for reasonable accommodation and a letter from her doctor that is within the same state and less than one year old. Let her know you will be calling them to verify authenticity. Take your time verifying. This will scare most people away or gives you enough time to find another renter.
You do not have to allow an esa animal if not allowed by insurance policies. It does not state that it has to even be your insurance policy. I change policies every so often for rate purposes and must be able to do so without regard to new companies animal policy so I exclude all dogs on the insurance lists which does include Mastiffs.
Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
For future reference....just because someone says a dog in an ESA doesn't mean it is. It is not illegal for a landlord to require proof of same (and not from one of those bogus online sources that, for $99 will claim anything is an ESA).
Some landlords are now providing their own forms that an applicant must take to a LOCAL medical provider QUALIFIED to confirm the need for such an animal. Often this takes time and by the time the applicant comes back with this information (if they ever do) the landlord notifies them the property has already been rented.
Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
First sign of problems: "sketchy about details." You have very specific rules: 1. ESA has to be verified with a letter from Dr Dan Dwyer MD in Boise stating that a Mastiff is needed for the disability. 2. you require liability dog coverage of two million dollars for any bite/knocking over Granny incident for the other dog 3. large pet deposit - go higher than @Nathan Gesner and ask for $2000 deposit (say is for the non ESA dog) as two large dogs will make the carpet smell and any other flooring scratched plus $100 a month for the non ESA dog. Two huge dogs will bother neighbors. Have you run her credit/background is there something else that doesn't meet your rules? Have a list of rules and apply same rules to everyone.
New to Real Estate · La Crosse, WI · Member since 2021 · 11 posts · 19 votes
4y
@Amanda Thompson
I’ve noticed some comments about requiring them to get an ESA letter from a specific doctor, or create your own ESA form and have a doctor sign it…. I know in Wisconsin this is now illegal. Not sure about other states, but here you cannot take these actions.
I’ve noticed some comments about requiring them to get an ESA letter from a specific doctor, or create your own ESA form and have a doctor sign it…. I know in Wisconsin this is now illegal. Not sure about other states, but here you cannot take these actions.
Can you point to that law? I just read what I could find on the Wisconsin law and it's actually more restrictive than the federal law when it comes to the prescription. Even that is confusing because I don't know that a state can over-ride federal law. They can add to it, but not take away.
But you are right, people should always study their local law because some states or cities have some pretty crazy ideas.
I highly recommend everyone consider using www.petscreening.com to handle animals. It's free to the landlord. The tenant or applicant pays $20 for the first animal and $15 for each one after that. It screens out a lot of scammers with certificates purchased online.
New to Real Estate · La Crosse, WI · Member since 2021 · 11 posts · 19 votes
4y
@Nathan Gesner Sorry, what I mentioned before is actually a change in the HUD regulations, not specific to Wisconsin. I've had multiple landlords tell me I need to have my doctor fill out their specific form for my ESA and have had to show them this document with the updated regulations (which changed in 2020 I believe) for them to believe that they can't require that. Because these changes are relatively recent I don't think a lot of landlords are fully aware of what they can and can't ask for. See screenshot and link to the full document. Also I think you're right about states not being able to overrule federal law. I'm not sure exactly how that works though, I wish I payed more attention back in high school :/
@Nathan Gesner Sorry, what I mentioned before is actually a change in the HUD regulations, not specific to Wisconsin. I've had multiple landlords tell me I need to have my doctor fill out their specific form for my ESA and have had to show them this document with the updated regulations (which changed in 2020 I believe) for them to believe that they can't require that. Because these changes are relatively recent I don't think a lot of landlords are fully aware of what they can and can't ask for. See screenshot and link to the full document. Also I think you're right about states not being able to overrule federal law. I'm not sure exactly how that works though, I wish I payed more attention back in high school :/
You have to read the entire document.
If you read beyond the highlighted portion, HUD provides "best practices" for what information the Landlord should collect. If the disability is not readily apparent, which is almost always the case with emotional support animals, then the Landlord has the right to determine if the applicant is disabled, as defined by ADA, and how the service animal assists them with that disability.
New to Real Estate · La Crosse, WI · Member since 2021 · 11 posts · 19 votes
4y
@Nathan G. Correct. And this must be done without the use of specific forms like I mentioned above. Which means the person with the disability can ask their doctor to draft up a letter explaining the need for an ESA and the landlord cannot tell them that they need to go back to their doctor and have them fill out their own special form. The landlord has the option to (and should imo) check into the doctor's letter and make sure it's legit (to the best of their ability) - but if they deny the ESA based on not filling out their special form or because they didn't get to chat with your doctor about your disability then that is against the rules outlined in the document I provided (which is up to date) and the person with a disability can file a complaint with HUD.
@Nathan G. Correct. And this must be done without the use of specific forms like I mentioned above. Which means the person with the disability can ask their doctor to draft up a letter explaining the need for an ESA and the landlord cannot tell them that they need to go back to their doctor and have them fill out their own special form. The landlord has the option to (and should imo) check into the doctor's letter and make sure it's legit (to the best of their ability) - but if they deny the ESA based on not filling out their special form or because they didn't get to chat with your doctor about your disability then that is against the rules outlined in the document I provided (which is up to date) and the person with a disability can file a complaint with HUD.
My post was referring to delay tactics. If you tell the applicant to fill out a specific form and they say that's not allowed, then you would back off because it may be illegal.
It's the same method insurance companies will use. "I'm sorry, but your policy doesn't cover..." Some insurance companies have a policy - perhaps unwritten - that they will deny every claim immediately and only investigate the claim if the insured party contacts them a second time. It makes billions.
New to Real Estate · La Crosse, WI · Member since 2021 · 11 posts · 19 votes
4y
@Nathan Gesner Interesting, I didn't know insurance companies did that. I also believe property owners can add to their application something along the lines of: "Do you currently have or plan to have an animal that will be living with you" and because the language uses "animal" and not "pet", the applicant must respond yes if they have an ESA. Then you can go with another "more qualified" applicant. I'm not positive on whether this method conflicts with any laws but I've seen other posters talk about it on here. Might save some headache if people really don't want animals on their property.
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
@Amanda Thompson It is far better to have your rental sit empty than it would be to have 2 dogs that large in a place that small with no yard. Regardless of claims that Mastiffs are sweet dogs (which they may be), they are huge. And the fact that she threw down the ESA card only after you balked shows that she is a fake.
Most ESA cases are frauds anyway, just look it up.
I would tell her that you have other potential tenants that you are considering and that they are getting their applications back to you within the week. That will buy you some time.....
Nathan has given good advice here. I would delay your responses (example: your weekends are for family focus, not work) likely take 2 business days to respond at all and continue marketing. In the timeframe between when you asked your multiple questions it is entirely possible you received several COMPLETE applications that you are now processing. You can get back to her once you have a signed lease and deposit in place with a “the unit has been rented. Good luck with your search.”
Insurance Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 743 posts · 462 votes
4y
@Amanda Thompson
I don’t respond to a lot of emails from potential tenants that I wouldn’t rent to. I definitely wouldn’t knowingly allow 2 large dogs in the house under any circumstances.
@Nathan Gesner Interesting, I didn't know insurance companies did that. I also believe property owners can add to their application something along the lines of: "Do you currently have or plan to have an animal that will be living with you" and because the language uses "animal" and not "pet", the applicant must respond yes if they have an ESA. Then you can go with another "more qualified" applicant. I'm not positive on whether this method conflicts with any laws but I've seen other posters talk about it on here. Might save some headache if people really don't want animals on their property.
I changed all my documents to say "animal" instead of "pet" to prevent people from circumventing my process.
Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
A letter from a licensed medical professional in the State where subject property sits that states that the specific emotional support animal is a part of tenant's treatment for a qualifying mental condition is the federal law. It doesn't state the tenant's diagnosis or disability. The letter needs to be on letterhead with license number to verify and be in past 12 months with breed of animal. ESA does not grant passage on airlines or public transportation.
Never ask about the tenant's disability. Don't ask the doctor or therapist about the disability.
There is no "form" to give to the tenant. Landlord can face $17000 fine first time and $70000 for third one plus costs.
There are also PSA and Service animals which are different. Know the difference.
Would you want a tenant with ten ESA chickens? I love chickens. I own chickens but you can never potty train a chicken.
Real Estate Agent · Henderson, NV · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 550 votes
4y
@Amanda Thompson you mentioned the property is a town house. Is it attached to other units? Is there a HOA? If there's an HOA, there may likely be animal restrictions within the governing documents of the community. This might be a potential out for you as well.
Otherwise I like @Nathan Gesner's recommendation of petscreening.com. I've been using it for a few months now, and it works great for verifying ESA's, service animals, ect.
Would you want a tenant with ten ESA chickens? I love chickens. I own chickens but you can never potty train a chicken.
This is one thing HUD got right with the January 2020 guidance: one ESA per disability. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone apply with four cats or three dogs and a cat, allegedly prescribed for their depression or anxiety. The previous guidance didn't allow us to limit them to one animal per disability (though I personally did it using ADA language).
Is the $17,000 fine a California thing? I've never heard of it and it sounds like something California would do.
Property Manager · Boise, ID · Member since 2021 · 119 posts · 48 votes
4y
These are all such great replies!! Is it legal to insist a local therapist has prescribed the ESA? I have another applicant who is a traveling nurse who is just moving here. She gave me a form from a therapist that says he had treated her and is well aware of her mental health disabilities... I'm going the check out the pet screening website for sure!