J.V. PARTNERSHIP FEEDBACK ..THOSE W/EXPERIENCE PLEASE WEIGH IN

J.V. PARTNERSHIP FEEDBACK ..THOSE W/EXPERIENCE PLEASE WEIGH IN

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Karen MargraveBusiness Member
Moderator
Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

We have never participated in a JV partnership before. I have had people contact me to propose different deals in the past. However; how do you know what % of a project to give up? I am posting a link showing what we bring to a project. Using an example of total development costs being $700k ($310 is land) and a value upon completion of $1,200,000 based on current appraisals, may be more) and considering what we add to the project, how much should we expect a financial partner to put in, and what % split would we need to give?

Also, this is a page I am considering using on my website, am I ok as far as SEC? I would be looking for Construction Lenders (using a mortgage broker to do all paperwork, etc.), or J.V. Partners. Our Value

@Will Barnard @Bryan Hancock @Bill Gulley others?

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Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y

Karen, yes, you need to show the value of your contributions to other investors. If you have a sophisticated investor who regularly deals in RE, they will already know what the going rate is for what you will provide. Assign your value as a % of the MV or sale price.

Generally in business we speak in terms of % not as to dollars, as the dollar amount or value of a deal changes. If you speak in terms of funding X dollars you could have future issues, especially in construction, developments or in rehabs. Big difference in asking you to fund 350K for 42.5% of the deal and asking you to fund 50% of the project costs, as you can have cost overruns. Who pays holding costs in the future on a spec? Or, you may say fund 50% of costs for 50% of the deal and explain what your contribution is as an expense to the project. Charging X% as an expense can have some advantages:

1. With many investors it can be a psychological advantage speaking to them as the owners, referring to yourself as the contractor or project manager. They feel the skin in the game. While I understand funding 50% for 42.5% of a deal, it will sound better to say 50% for 50%.

2. It's easier to market and sell the concept of them being the owners paying expenses and relating their position or contribution to the expected value of the project.

3. In some instances, placing yourself in a position of providing services can limit your liability to those aspects of services provided.

4. Accounting is easier splitting capital accounts of investors to 100% and expensing your earnings.

5. By providing your services to a project without ownership can place you first in line to get paid! You could have an investor head to bankruptcy arising out of that project or from any other business or personal matter. You can be in a lien position and get paid from sale proceeds.

6. Another aspect of liability issues. A participation in a partnership under contract, construction or management, is not a recordable matter. Your name doesn't need to appear in public records as it is a private transaction. If others can't find your assets or sources of income, the chance of them going after you drops. Such contracts can be shown in you financial statements and can be used as collateral as with accounts receivables financing.

A downside is to any tax advantage, if you aren't an owner you won't be taking depreciation. As a service provider you'll have regular income, if your project is placed in service and held, you won't see the capital gains treatment, unless you take a % of ownership*.

Your fee can be negotiated from various angles but you need to explain, to some degree, the value of your participation. Fees can be a flat dollar amount or a % of the deal. You can also take a % of profits as an offset to more favorable fee structures charged, this is a good way to go as you agree to assume some risk to the end and disposition of the project.

It's common for contractors to take on management on a long term basis of a project, like condos or apartments. Management contracts can be compensated with a % of profits in addition to general administrative aspects.

* If you use a Sub-S, you could have a stock option to buy in or create a stock ownership position, the increase in stock value will be a capital gain.

There are endless ways to agree and structure a partnership. Many larger projects are accomplished on leased land with capital improvements. Instead of acquiring the land and selling, the land can be purchased (investors can be used here as well) and then provide a long term lease to the entity of investors holding the improvements.

Any business can be sliced into functions and contributions under a partnership. You can take a financing position inside a partnership agreement, an ownership position or a management position. With the creative use of first right of refusals, secured lending positions, options to purchase, construction contracts or leases you can profit from various positions, long or short term. :)

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    What a thoughtful post Karen! Kudos to you!

    People that are lending always think their money has more value than development, deal flow, etc. People with development, deal flow, etc. always think that things are the other way around. The simple fact is that all of this is needed for a successful deal and the cost of capital will be reflected in who has the upper hand in the project :-)

  • Winter Park, FL · Member since 2013 · 22 posts · 3 votes
    12y
    I know a lot of developers (successful ones) that act as a GP and put NO money into the LP? You may ask why? Well, when you personally guarantee the construction loan you quickly realize their interests are aligned. I'm not talking about a 500k construction loan either! More like 5MM-20MM!
  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Chris H.:
    I know a lot of developers (successful ones) that act as a GP and put NO money into the LP? You may ask why? Well, when you personally guarantee the construction loan you quickly realize their interests are aligned. I'm not talking about a 500k construction loan either! More like 5MM-20MM!

    Chris, just to be clear, most loans of that size for construction are typically going to be in commercial and most are going to be asset based and non-recourse, no "personal guarantees". After all, how many people can individually proof up $20M in liquid assets to back a personal guarantee of that size! My point is, while I agree with the basis of your post, I find it hard to believe that such guarantees are offered and accepted in those price points in the commercial world, they do however exist in residential and in the sub $5M.

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks to all of you for taking the time to answer. All of us have varying points of view, and look at things through our filters, be it a financial partner, developer, remodeler, etc., and that's exactly what I wanted to tap into, the varying criteria each considers.

    @Eric Michaels I understand that a piece of the pie is better than no pie at all, and I have no problem with that concept. I think the trick to partnerships is finding a balance that works for all involved, and as @Bryan Hancock mentioned we need to be long term greedy.

    I know that sometimes a developer giving up more can result in being able to increase volume or step up in the size of projects one is able to do, etc., which can have value of its own.(especially in a high dollar area such as we are in). At the same time, finding partners that create marketable projects on a consistent basis, be it new construction, remodeling, buy/hold partners, etc. makes life easier for those wanting to invest their money.

    As both Eric, @Will Barnard and @Bill Gulley have pointed out it's critical to understand the % on splits as it's not always as it seems, and there are no hard and fast formulas or standards, etc., so anyone considering joint ventures should do their homework!

    Thanks everyone! I know I, along with the many others on BP wanting to be educated on Joint Ventures appreciate your posts.

  • Real Estate Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2013 · 108 posts · 71 votes
    12y

    It's important to note there are SERIOUS differences between what I'll call "institutional" real estate (what @Will Barnard refers to as "commercial" above) and the smaller/more "residential" HML, Private Lending, and smaller time JV structuring that seem to be more often debated here on BP.

    I worked for one of the largest multifamily equity syndication shops in the US, and the typical deal structure would be for the GP to contribute $100 (yes, that's a hundred bucks) to the partnership, and recieve 0.01% ownership. The LP's would bring the remainder of the equity (we're talking big deals, $10mm+ development costs, with at least 25-30% equity, usually more like 40%) and receive 99.99% ownership. GP/Developers in the institutional world work for the paid and/or deferred developer fees (widely vary, but anywhere between 6-15% of total development costs), and many of them had related management companies, ensuring ongoing management fees from good size apartment portfolios. Some GP's were able to negotiate some cashflow sharing and back-end splits, but for them, the juice was in the developer fee and management fees.

    Personally, I recently structured a deal more typical of what you see on BP. Roughly $400k total costs, money partners put up $100k in equity, I have no cash in the deal, but personally sign for the HML. Money partners receive 8% preferred return, I do the job for cost, only receiving a 6% developer fee after pref is paid. After that, we split everything 50/50.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bryan Hancock:
    What a thoughtful post Karen! Kudos to you!

    People that are lending always think their money has more value than development, deal flow, etc. People with development, deal flow, etc. always think that things are the other way around. The simple fact is that all of this is needed for a successful deal and the cost of capital will be reflected in who has the upper hand in the project :-)

    Agreed but the question in the OP was not what do we think splits should be or what is fair or appropriate or what we wish they were. It was, in our experience, what is the going rate/terms?

    I have reported the going rate that I have experience with actually doing deals. (and taken heat for it for some reason)

    What is the split that Bullseye pays in your public fund?

    My point is that I was not putting my opinion into my answer so there shouldn't be any push back. No opinions are relevant. Just facts of what similar deals are actually taking place in the marketplace. Toss out the 1 off SFH flips with buddies as partners and toss out the 300MM institututional deals and I bet you will find the actual splits being done are in a very small range around 75/25. That is the relevant info to be given in our answers to this post. Just saying obvious things like all deals are unique and everyone thinks their input is more valuable is not helpful IMO. It is just blowing smoke.

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Eric M. I think you may be reading more into some of the posts, and taking them personal, when that wasn't anyones intent at all. I for one appreciate your point of view, based on your experience, in your market. Admittedly, I have no experience with JV's, and therefore; was trying to get some of the details, on splits, the hows and whys, etc.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Eric M.

    To answer your post above we do a 60/40 (investors/promoters) split in our fund with an 8% preferred return and a make-up (match) return for the promoters. People generally invest in smaller increments than one would see in a JV type arrangement. There is also significant overhead with managing a structure like this and thus they shouldn't expect as high of a split due to this overhead.

    In a JV scenario in my experience investors generally need to bring larger amounts of money for it to work in this type of a structure. If you're not doing a full-up private placement where the promoter has this as a risk hedging mechanism the motivation is to keep the investor count both smaller and with higher dollar amounts to invest; which is more indicative of a partnership-type structure with big-boy accredited investors. In this type of a structure those investors can generally command a bigger split (all else being equal) because the promoter has less overhead with legal, etc.

    If the developer brings to bear significant value and/or puts up a lot of the dough on their own it would not be uncommon for them to carve out a lot of the back-end distribution and get favorable terms in the waterfall and deal language. There are simply too many variables and deal types to answer this question in the abstract. There is a lot of good discussion in this post though so hopefully people can refrain from being defensive about things so it will continue and not be locked ;-)

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    This is a great thread, and all of you have really put some meat in your posts. I know it will be very informative for those searching out information on Joint Ventures, I know it's definitely helped me.

    I think part of the problem is that with me not having any experience with Joint Ventures, I didn't know what the questions to ask were to get the best understanding of how JVs are structured, etc., but all of you ran with the ball, and I appreciate it.

  • Investor · Hendersonville, NC · Member since 2013 · 757 posts · 282 votes
    12y

    There was a lot of high-level analysis and opinion going on in this post! My formula might sound a bit simplistic or not aggressive enough, but, it seemed like a good idea at the time ;)

    I began a j.v. partnership on a fix and flip about nine months ago (it's major, and we've got it selling May 30th). He's an architect/project manager and is more familiar with the niche we are working in. We hired a GC. I'm a Realtor and capital partner. We will split the proceeds 50/50. Obviously, I had to trust him, but he also had to trust me, it just depends on how you view it. I was hoping he wasn't a fraud or a flake, and he was hoping I actually had money and would see the project through. We began with a handshake, and then eventually, created a three or four page contract we both liked. I felt it was important to structure it so that if we make anything over $15,000, we split after-cost profit, and if we make from $1-$15,000 in profit, I get a proportionally larger percentage (my ROI requirements). He obviously doesn't want to do work for free, which is one of the motivating factors I counted on. The epilogue is that we thought we were going to make about $40,000 but because we executed well and had luck in regard to the market, we're looking at making $60,000. Making $30,000 in nine months on $300,000 isn't something to write home about, but it was my first flip and our first project together, and I got to learn a lot along the way. Hell, I'm just happy to not lose money and get an education. We are thinking of a new project come June, in fact. It hasn't been the easiest thing in the world to have this much riding on a successful outcome. And we probably have had about as much good and bad luck as J Scott did with his long project. More good than bad I'd say. So, in sum, I started with 50% for bringing money (me) and 50% for everything else (him). Perhaps one day if we do this again, I will actually feel comfortable letting him do all the work. I in fact probably bugged the $hit out of him at times with my backseat driving! It might have been slightly helpful - I was the Commander Riker to his Captain Picard, essentially.

  • Developer · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 151 posts · 31 votes
    12y

    I too would like to JV but have come to the same conclusion as @Karen Margrave " too much time setting up the deal" I could even provide finance and land however I would like to retain use of the completed building which makes the whole JV fall apart in the end.

  • Property Manager · Montgomery, AL · Member since 2014 · 28 posts · 5 votes
    11y

    I apologize for commenting on an old thread, but you guys really seem to know what you're talking about.

     A few days ago I posted a question on the forums regarding equity structure. I'm doing my first deal where the investor is fronting all the money and need some advice. One of the guys presented a possible equity structure with escalating ownership. I really liked it, presented it to my investor and he agreed to it. But now I'm starting to think that I'm offering too much. It's structured as follows:

    - Investor secures conventional bank financing, paying 20% down

    - I get 20% for sourcing deal, he keeps 80%

    - I pay half the mortgage, he pays half the mortgage 

    - I start paying back 50% of the 20% downpayment, trying to reach invested cash parity with investor

    - Once I pay half of my half of the downpayment, my equity stake goes to 35%. Once I pay 100% of my half of the downpayment, we are 50/50 partners

    - The whole time I'm trying to reach parity with investor, I'm paying him 10% preferred interest on his cash invested, then we split remaining profit on our current ownership percentage. 

    I will be acting as GC and asset manager, but getting paid those fees separately . 

    I'm I being too generous? I feel like paying half the mortgage payment with only 20% equity will really squeeze me. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Billy Guyette

      this seems like chasing a falling knife for you.. I would reconsider

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 308 posts · 59 votes
    11y

    @Billy

    My first thought is this structure seems unnecessarily complicated.  A couple things from the point of view of the investor:

    1.  Is the investor personally guaranteeing the loan?  This would be a deal breaker for most investors.

    2.  This structure could leave the investor short-changed if you are doing a deal with a lot of value-add.  He is effectively selling you equity at the original price, but the equity you are receiving is at a higher value.  

    Do you have proforma numbers? What kind of IRR is the investor looking at? Unless it's significantly more than 10%, I don't think it makes much sense to the investor, given he could just loan you money at 10% with much less risk.

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