Does anyone have any experience with southern Vermont? I'm looking both around Ludlow and around Dover - so Okemo and Mount Snow. I know Kilington and Stowe are strong but I thought being a little closer to major metros might help and the info I'm finding seems to support. If anyone has any knowledge, would appreciate.
Hey @David N., what I would do first is pick an area you think might work.
Then get on AirBNB and VRBO and see what is currently there. How many rentals? What is the nightly rates average (base that on the size of place you are thinking of getting), what kind of amenities? What do their calendars look like?
That will give you a rough idea of what to expect. You can also add and AirDNA scan of a specific area to get some ideas a well. I don't think it is that accurate sometimes, but combined with the review on the 2 OTA's, you should get a pretty good idea.
You can also go to Awning.com's estimator - https://www.awning.com/airbnb-estimator
It is free and pulls the same basic data AirDNA does. I think AirDNA has a few more metrics, but I like the tool as a basic checker.
Hey @David N., what I would do first is pick an area you think might work.
Then get on AirBNB and VRBO and see what is currently there. How many rentals? What is the nightly rates average (base that on the size of place you are thinking of getting), what kind of amenities? What do their calendars look like?
That will give you a rough idea of what to expect. You can also add and AirDNA scan of a specific area to get some ideas a well. I don't think it is that accurate sometimes, but combined with the review on the 2 OTA's, you should get a pretty good idea.
You can also go to Awning.com's estimator - https://www.awning.com/airbnb-estimator
It is free and pulls the same basic data AirDNA does. I think AirDNA has a few more metrics, but I like the tool as a basic checker.
Connect with @Bob Lett...he has a STR in the Stowe area and could help you out some.
What is your goal with a property in those area's? cash flow? personal use? appreciation? What kind of cash on cash returns are you looking for?
Bob - My goal is long term buy and hold primarily as an investment but I'd like to use it 2-4 times a year for probably a total of about 20-28 days a year so less than 10% of available time. I'm looking to cover my mortgage plus about $1000/month cushion. I'm seeing CoC returns around 20%.
What is your goal with a property in those area's? cash flow? personal use? appreciation? What kind of cash on cash returns are you looking for?
Bob - My goal is long term buy and hold primarily as an investment but I'd like to use it 2-4 times a year for probably a total of about 20-28 days a year so less than 10% of available time. I'm looking to cover my mortgage plus about $1000/month cushion. I'm seeing CoC returns around 20%.
I'm in a similar boat as you. We use ours personally 14 days or less. Northern VT is strong too since Stowe in on the Epic pass and Jay gets a lot of the Canadian crowd. Keep in mind non homestead taxes when looking as well when running your analysis. I am happy to help look at any proforma's you have!
What is your goal with a property in those area's? cash flow? personal use? appreciation? What kind of cash on cash returns are you looking for?
Bob - My goal is long term buy and hold primarily as an investment but I'd like to use it 2-4 times a year for probably a total of about 20-28 days a year so less than 10% of available time. I'm looking to cover my mortgage plus about $1000/month cushion. I'm seeing CoC returns around 20%.
I'm in a similar boat as you. We use ours personally 14 days or less. Northern VT is strong too since Stowe in on the Epic pass and Jay gets a lot of the Canadian crowd. Keep in mind non homestead taxes when looking as well when running your analysis. I am happy to help look at any proforma's you have!
Bob - This is the first I'm hearing of non-homestead taxes. I googled it and didn't find a great answer. Can you explain?
What is your goal with a property in those area's? cash flow? personal use? appreciation? What kind of cash on cash returns are you looking for?
Bob - My goal is long term buy and hold primarily as an investment but I'd like to use it 2-4 times a year for probably a total of about 20-28 days a year so less than 10% of available time. I'm looking to cover my mortgage plus about $1000/month cushion. I'm seeing CoC returns around 20%.
I'm in a similar boat as you. We use ours personally 14 days or less. Northern VT is strong too since Stowe in on the Epic pass and Jay gets a lot of the Canadian crowd. Keep in mind non homestead taxes when looking as well when running your analysis. I am happy to help look at any proforma's you have!
Bob - This is the first I'm hearing of non-homestead taxes. I googled it and didn't find a great answer. Can you explain?
Hi David,
Ludlow looks to use residential and non-residential: located on right side of this page are the rates:
Listers & Assessor - Town & Village of Ludlow, VT
Here is the treasurers office info for Dover, they should be able to give you the millage rates you are looking for:
Treasurer/Finance Officer/Delinquent Tax Collector | Dover Vermont
Here is the state of VT definition for homestead and non homestead:
Homestead Declaration | Department of Taxes (vermont.gov)
Hey @David N.,
I've been an owner/operator of a STR in Winhall for a little over 5 years. Excellent market but competition is fierce. Be prepared to invest extra cash into amenities to lure guests in. Also be mindful of existing or proposed restrictions - I don't recall anything extreme proposed in Ludlow or Dover, but Wilmington is being very aggressive in all but eliminating STRs. VTSTRA.org is a great resource for regulatory info.
Hope this helps - best of luck!
Hey @David N.,
I've been an owner/operator of a STR in Winhall for a little over 5 years. Excellent market but competition is fierce. Be prepared to invest extra cash into amenities to lure guests in. Also be mindful of existing or proposed restrictions - I don't recall anything extreme proposed in Ludlow or Dover, but Wilmington is being very aggressive in all but eliminating STRs. VTSTRA.org is a great resource for regulatory info.
Hope this helps - best of luck!
Monique - Thanks so much. Would you mind sharing your listing so I can see what you've done? I'm not looking in Winhall and I've given up on Wilmington because of the uncertainty about the rules and regs. I'm currently looking a little further north. Thanks for the link! David
The situation in VT with regulations is just terrible right now. It seems every town I look at either has recently passed some egregious or is considering it. Most recently, the town I was looking at passed an outright ban and is considering permanently requiring that any new owners wait 12 months before implementing an STR.
The situation in VT with regulations is just terrible right now. It seems every town I look at either has recently passed some egregious or is considering it. Most recently, the town I was looking at passed an outright ban and is considering permanently requiring that any new owners wait 12 months before implementing an STR.
Are you open to Killington area or further north on rt100?
The situation in VT with regulations is just terrible right now. It seems every town I look at either has recently passed some egregious or is considering it. Most recently, the town I was looking at passed an outright ban and is considering permanently requiring that any new owners wait 12 months before implementing an STR.
Are you open to Killington area or further north on rt100?
Yes. My priority is seasonality.
Hey @David N.,
I've been an owner/operator of a STR in Winhall for a little over 5 years. Excellent market but competition is fierce. Be prepared to invest extra cash into amenities to lure guests in. Also be mindful of existing or proposed restrictions - I don't recall anything extreme proposed in Ludlow or Dover, but Wilmington is being very aggressive in all but eliminating STRs. VTSTRA.org is a great resource for regulatory info.
Hope this helps - best of luck!
Monique - Thanks so much. Would you mind sharing your listing so I can see what you've done? I'm not looking in Winhall and I've given up on Wilmington because of the uncertainty about the rules and regs. I'm currently looking a little further north. Thanks for the link! David
Of course, but you have to add it to your favorites to give me a boost in the algo ;)
You can also find us at www.thevermontaframe.com which has links to direct booking, VRBO and our social media. We've invested a good bit into marketing and have been building a solid email list since 2020. It's helped, but we're still considering adding a hot tub to boost our revenue!
Hey @David N.,
I've been an owner/operator of a STR in Winhall for a little over 5 years. Excellent market but competition is fierce. Be prepared to invest extra cash into amenities to lure guests in. Also be mindful of existing or proposed restrictions - I don't recall anything extreme proposed in Ludlow or Dover, but Wilmington is being very aggressive in all but eliminating STRs. VTSTRA.org is a great resource for regulatory info.
Hope this helps - best of luck!
Monique - Thanks so much. Would you mind sharing your listing so I can see what you've done? I'm not looking in Winhall and I've given up on Wilmington because of the uncertainty about the rules and regs. I'm currently looking a little further north. Thanks for the link! David
Of course, but you have to add it to your favorites to give me a boost in the algo ;)
You can also find us at www.thevermontaframe.com which has links to direct booking, VRBO and our social media. We've invested a good bit into marketing and have been building a solid email list since 2020. It's helped, but we're still considering adding a hot tub to boost our revenue!
Killington is about to pop. I think Vail is about to build a new resort there, but you may want to fact-check me.
Hey @David N.,
I've been an owner/operator of a STR in Winhall for a little over 5 years. Excellent market but competition is fierce. Be prepared to invest extra cash into amenities to lure guests in. Also be mindful of existing or proposed restrictions - I don't recall anything extreme proposed in Ludlow or Dover, but Wilmington is being very aggressive in all but eliminating STRs. VTSTRA.org is a great resource for regulatory info.
Hope this helps - best of luck!
Monique - Thanks so much. Would you mind sharing your listing so I can see what you've done? I'm not looking in Winhall and I've given up on Wilmington because of the uncertainty about the rules and regs. I'm currently looking a little further north. Thanks for the link! David
Of course, but you have to add it to your favorites to give me a boost in the algo ;)
You can also find us at www.thevermontaframe.com which has links to direct booking, VRBO and our social media. We've invested a good bit into marketing and have been building a solid email list since 2020. It's helped, but we're still considering adding a hot tub to boost our revenue!
Beautiful site! Did you create the website yourself? Who is your favorite photographer in VT?
Killington is about to pop. I think Vail is about to build a new resort there, but you may want to fact-check me.
I agree, but Vail is not involved. Killington is part of Ikon pass. Vail resorts is part of Epic pass.
Here is a blurb on the new base village.
https://www.vhb.com/news/killington-ski-area-transformation-new-village-core/#:~:text=The%20Master%20Plan's%20biggest%20goal,housing%20units%2C%20among%20other%20amenities.
@David N. Been in this market for a number of years. Let’s start with some basics of realistic expenses offset versus unrealistic gold rush paradigms in a high cost, high tax, low occupancy state:
You're not getting 20% CoC.
Vermont is a STR region with a massive 4-6 month shoulder season.
AirDNA et al are publishing occupancy data that’s wildly inaccurate because they cannot account for owner versus rental occupancy.
# listings have exploded post-COVID: too much NY/NJ capital with no where else to go.
Both state and local town STR ordinances are exploding. VTSTRA has a (slightly outdated) list of town ordinances: https://vtstra.org/regs but that does not even get into some of the crazy proposals being tossed around at the state level, like an additional 10% STR tax (atop the 9% M&R + 1% local options tax already in place in many communities).
https://legislature.vermont.gov/Documents/2024/WorkGroups/House%20Ways%20and%20Means/Short-term%20Rentals/W~Kirby%20Keeton~Short-term%20rentals%20draft%20language~3-13-2024.pdf
Fair enough - my priorities are tax savings (expense offset) and appreciation. However, unlike some I do need the place to break even. It sounds like you think even that might be ambitious. I'm wondering if luxury properties are the way to go because a) better tax savings; and b) more likely to rent for $$$ during ski season, or at least that's what seems to be the case. I would have thought it would be hard to rent places for $2000/night but those places always seem to be rented.
@David N. I don’t have any XP with the Berkshires, but I would agree with your assessment of there potentially being more to do in the summer. The more I talk to investors in other parts of the country the more it seems clear that this is the Achilles heel of New England: too short a tourist season. It’s also the thing that seems to make the Smokies really stand out as a rental destination (among many others): a long season.
Here in New England you just can’t assume a ski season of 2-3 months is going to offset 9 other months of carrying costs; you’re already starting in a hole. And yes, anything looks good for folks paying cash, but at that point why buy anyway? You’re competing with an endless array of other investment opportunities that will generate far better return with far less risk/overhead than real estate. Don’t get me wrong, I realize there’s a class of folks out there with too much money to burn, but if anyone reading this is sitting on a spare $1m they’re throwing into 3 month/year New England ski house because they don’t know what else to do with their money let me know. I have a few startups to pitch you. 😀
Hey David,
I am born and raised in Southern Vermont (Wilmington/Dover) and work (real estate and former jobs) in the Berkshires. If you haven't found the answer to your question, reach out!