Ski-in Ski-Out Colorado anyone?

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Ski-in Ski-Out Colorado anyone?

Will R.
Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes

I am considering a life hack and wondering if anyone has real data or life experience that could help me make a decision. The basic plan is to purchase or build a ski-in ski-out house or duplex in Colorado. I may never use it to ski. However, I would lease out my house in Austin and live there in the summer. Think: snow bird (but escaping heat). Assume I do the marketing but outsource the operations to someone.

Here are the questions:

1. Could I "live for free" in the summer on the ski season income? What if I also discount the carry costs of the 3 months I am there? 

2. I want to own the dirt. Will this plan work with a cabin/house/duplex instead of condo? 

3. Should I go luxury/middle/cheap? Where is the real bang for buck? Obviously, I would prefer nicer but would rather make the best financial move.

4. Should I buy or build? Given the lots I have seen, seems much cheaper to build but maybe I am really (2x) underestimating construction costs in ski areas. What are your costs to build?

5. What is the best mountain for this and why? http://www.coloradoski.com/resort-season-dates

6. Is ski-in ski-out short-term the best idea? I picked that because I want to focus on maximizing the ski season income but maybe you have a better idea. Cheaper area? Seasonal staff rental? Student rental (Gunnison)?  

Not sure if anyone has a crystal ball with these kinds of answers but I figured I would ask. I could answer all these questions pretty well for Austin but I am at a total loss for a ski town. 

I will be backpacking up there next week and may go radio silent on this thread for a few days. I will obviously ask around while I am there but I figure you guys probably think more like I do than the average agent. Also, BP is based in Denver right? So, someone here has to have answers...

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Matt M.
Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y

You'd want a house with a mother in law suite. That way, you could stay when every you wanted and rent out both. Anything at a Vail resort or similar will be astronomical in price as far as homes go. Beaver Run condos in Breck gross $35k+ a season, but that comes at a price. 

I'd avoid renting to staff or college kids. You can find homes in Summit county that are close to the ski areas starting at $300k. 

$250-300sqft to build a luxury home there.

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  • Matt M.
    Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    You'd want a house with a mother in law suite. That way, you could stay when every you wanted and rent out both. Anything at a Vail resort or similar will be astronomical in price as far as homes go. Beaver Run condos in Breck gross $35k+ a season, but that comes at a price. 

    I'd avoid renting to staff or college kids. You can find homes in Summit county that are close to the ski areas starting at $300k. 

    $250-300sqft to build a luxury home there.

    3Reply
  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    Hi @Matt M.! Thanks for the reply! Do you think Summit county is going to be better than a standalone like Crested Butte or Durango? Do you think I am better off buying further from the slopes at the $300k point? What do you think a place like that would gross if you assume 100% vacancy in the summer? 

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  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    11y

    Finding the right mountain is going to be a delicate balance. Breckenridge is a huge resort and the last few years the town has been making an effort to attract summer visitors with festivals, so you wouldn't necessarily be 100% vacant during the summer if you chose to open it up for rentals. Breckenridge also has the second-highest elevation, so their season is nice and long. And as @Matt M. noted, Vail, Aspen and Beaver Creek are going to be astronomically priced. One of those 'if you have to ask, you can't afford it' kind of places.

    A-Basin is at the highest elevation, and has the longest season. But it isn't as well-known as Breck or those other, pricier places. 

    Copper Mountain is also very close to Breck, but again is less well known. To maximize your profit, you want to be at the better-known resorts. I think Copper has lower priced rentals and lower priced properties.

    I don't think a budget-end home on the slopes is a good plan. People with lower budgets aren't expecting to stay on the slopes. Most ski-in/ski-outs are on the nicer end of the spectrum.

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  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    Hi @Mindy Jensen! That is a good point on the marketing/popularity of the mountain. What I hear you saying is either luxury build on the slopes or budget build off the slopes. Which of those do you think has better ROI? If you did not rent in the summer, which of those would you buy? Do you think proximity to Denver is important?

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  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    11y

    @Will R., I do think proximity to Denver is important. It takes about 2 hours to get to Breckenridge from DIA, without snow or traffic. A-Basin and Copper are near Breck. I don't know if a luxury build would get you much better returns than a higher-end build. That doesn't read right. I think a nicer-than-average build on the slopes would be just as financially advantageous as a luxury build on the slopes. I think you have more of a chance of renting out a less-expensive place, however. And you are going to pay a super premium for those slope-side lots. 

    A trip to Summit County, which is where all these resorts I have mentioned are located, would give you a really great idea of what is available. PM me for the name of a great Summit County agent, if you don't already have one.

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  • Travis Sperr
    Lender · Denver, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 597 votes
    11y

    I have funded a couple of new construction houses in Breckenridge for clients that are keeping as vacation rentals - I would focus less on the ski in-out - because a single family is likely too expense in that space to do well with. What you may not be aware of is the mountain towns have fantastic bus systems - being on the bus line is almost as good as ski in-out. Also - not on a ski resort - but Frisco is still a little under valued to me - there is a lot of investment happening there - restaurants, Whole Foods, etc - it is a short drive to many resorts and a bus ride into Breckenridge.

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  • Bill S.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @Will R. IMO it doesn't matter which mountain you own at. Ski season is Thanksgiving through Spring Break. If you are rented outside of that time then it's gravy. Summer rentals tread water at best. Your management costs are what is going to eat your lunch. I considered doing this for a while and couldn't get close to making the deal work for me. 

    Building in the mountains is a whole different world. Everything thing costs 2-4x. I worked with other types of construction (municipal water and sewer systems) and that is what we experienced. You can't even begin to comprehend where the cost come from. Unless you have a lot of building experience and some connections I would forgo the building approach. There is a significant prejudice against outsiders. You will pay more than a local would pay for the same thing. I don't think an outsider without connections could build cheaper than buying retail. That's just my opinion. The only reason to build as an outsider is to get that special property that you want where cost is no objective. There are plenty of people willing to "help" folks like that.

    For a better idea of income and such. Pick a couple of properties on AirBnB and reach out to them. They are usually ordinary folks who will share information with you.

    My priorities would be Aspen and then Vail. After that anything along the I-70 corridor. Last would be the remote standalones like Crested Butte or Durango. Winter Park and Steamboat are ones that have not been mentioned but you might want to consider.

    I wish you well. 

    1Reply
  • Lucian Harris-Gallahue
    Gaithersburg, MD · Member since 2015 · 30 posts · 8 votes
    11y

    Subscribed-Great post @Will R.

    1Reply
  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    @Travis Sperr

     Great thoughts! Is there any way you could share rough/average numbers for that new construction? Do you think Frisco would see decent rental rates and vacancies? 

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  • Bill S.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
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    @Travis Sperr I love Frisco. It's the best in the summer IMO.

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  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    @Bill S.

     Thanks for the reply! I can totally understand the local bias. Do you think modular would work in mountain context? I was thinking I could GC the construction by living in a rental for the first summer but the trades may still give me the same markup I guess. If you had taken the carrying cost of three of the summer months out of your math, do you think the numbers would have penciled out? 

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  • Travis Sperr
    Lender · Denver, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 597 votes
    11y

    @Bill S. I agree Frisco is great.

    @Will R. - sharing numbers on the deals would offer zero value to you for all of the reasons Bill mentioned. They have been massaging relationships there for years - the mountain folk do not like us city slickers trouncing around on their turf- now that the market is warming up it there are definite barriers for entry. To your specific question about vacancies - just like any real estate investment - you may have more vacancies in Frisco - but your price point for entry is less so you likely see a similar return. The Mountain markets are really starting to heat up - a couple years ago condos in Eagle and areas surrounding Vail where cheap! 

    The stand alone - like Crested Butte - still values there. Visiting last summer I was blown away at what you could get a 2bed 2 bath condo for, then I remembered that it took 4 hours to get there, in August. Again a softer market - lower rents, lower entry and one of the most beautiful places in the world. 

    Back to your original post stating you may not even use it to ski - there are other mountain towns that are significantly less expensive if you are not into skiing - like Granby - when compared to Summit County some of units are almost free (less than $100k last I looked).

    1Reply
  • Rob Withers
    Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    I have owned several rentals in the mountains at Copper, Breck and Winter Park.  Quick summary from my experience - mountain cash flow is much lower when compared to other the right property elsewhere and people buy for the lifestyle and less for the investment.  A few details:

    Ski-in / Ski-Out at major resorts:

    Many homes at major resorts that are ski-in ski-out go for over 7 figures. Land is also through the roof. Ski-in ski-out lots in Breck in the $600k range. If you buy a ski-in, ski-out condo near the resorts and hire a management company to rent it out, fees range from 40% to 60% to manage as a short term rental. HOA fees, cleaning fees, and assessments all contribute to costs. Gross rental receipts don't tell the full story.

    Alternatives:

    Look for areas without a ski area that are reasonably close by and less dominated by tourists, maybe Blue River or Fairplay south of Breck, Grandby north of Winter Park. Gunnison as you mention might be an option.  Leadville near a small ski areas such as Ski Cooper might work.  Another challenge, please come for the winter and summer these days an the shoulder seasons will be hard to rent so a long term rental needs to be 12 months or 6 months.  A 9 mo rental that includes the shoulder seasons will be tough.

    Good luck.  I hope you can make it work great.  In the end, it's about finding the right place at the right price.  Please keep the group informed!

    Rob

    2Reply
  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    @Mindy Jensen

     I totally get what you are saying with higher end instead of luxury. I I think I would basically do some Ikea hacks to give a custom feel without breaking the bank. I would probably do that with remodel or new. From what I am hearing on construction, remodel/update is the better route. 

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  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    11y

    I would lean toward remodel rather than a new build. 

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  • Justin Park
    Investor · Breckenridge, CO · Member since 2015 · 16 posts · 7 votes
    11y

    @Will R. I just purchased a single-family 3 min from Breckenridge (Blue River) and my partner works in real estate in Breck. So I will comment only on Breck which isn't the most expensive but is the most visited resort in North America.

    Ski-In/Out: I would let this go if you're trying to do anything on a budget and if you're hoping to own the land and turn a profit, forget about it. Land outside of town is going for $100-$200K for <1ac and anything that could be ski in/out will be seven figures as @Rob Withers mentioned above. Build costs are obv variable but $200/sq ft at best (like you know people and have favors to cash in).

    You can get decent ski in/out condos for <$300K and I ran the numbers for renting to a year-round renter and it's a few hundred a month shy of break-even, even on a good deal. You'd have to run the numbers on renting in ski season only. I imagine they'd look much better. Also, you could rent to a seasonal resident (people from Front Range often get a condo just for ski season) at decent rents. Not as high of nightly rentals, but you avoid the management fees which, as mentioned, are very high. But you obv wouldn't own the dirt. Would love to see what you find if you do the calculations so please share back to the thread.

    I second @Mindy Jensen on remodel over rebuild. Deals can be found if you're patient and creative. I would also be curious about numbers looking at Airbnb/VRBO rates for a single-family and/or condo situations. We'll likely rent our home via AirBnB over the holidays when rates are highest and we're gone, but I'm not really sure what's realistic. I do know inventory gets booked fast in Breck in peak times so even a few miles outside of town, you should be able to rent it at a solid price.

    Which Resort?

    I might be biased, but if you're intending to enjoy the property yourself during summer, Breck has the most going on. More festivals, more permanent residents, great hikes/bikes, golf. Many other resorts punt on summer. I live here and I can tell you that town is bustling with visitors (our only downtimes are Spring and Fall, really).

    Keystone, Copper, A-Basin, Loveland, Vail, Winter Park all are basically ghost towns come summer as there is no permanent population to speak of (A-Basin and Loveland don't even have much infrastructure at all). Would be rather lonely.

    Frisco was mentioned and has a great summer and still rents well for ski season even though you need a bus or car ride to get to any skiing (it's central to most of the skiing close to Denver).

    Further afield, Crested Butte and Steamboat are amazing standalone towns with great summers and actual towns and cooler weather than Austin for sure. Don't know much about Steamboat, but was just in CB and real estate is significantly cheaper than in Breck. Just keep in mind it's 4+ hours from Denver airport and much less visited in ski season.

    I can point you to an investment-focused agent in Breck if you decide you're interested in this area.

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  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    @Justin Park

    Thanks Justin! Amazing flow of great responses on this thread. I often think I would be best off renting from someone who has a place that is dead in the summer. However, this seems like a competitive advantage for me if I purchased and I would be storing up equity and appreciation in the process. I definitely lean towards CB and Steamboat but I fear the lack of rental. Breck seems like a great option. 

    0Reply
  • Rob Withers
    Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    @Justin Park Nice perspective.  I'm a huge Blue River fan and am looking for a Blue River home, something with good bones I can upgrade over time.  I'd love to connect with a realtor or others that know the area well (from the lake to Quandary and even the backside of Hoosier pass).  Any recommendations?

    I'm in no hurry, but keeping my eyes open.

    1Reply
  • Rob Withers
    Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    @Justin Park

    See above post.  My @mention didn't take.  thx.

    0Reply
  • Dax Middlebrooks
    Spring, TX · Member since 2015 · 25 posts · 17 votes
    11y

    @Will R. Thanks so much for starting this thread.  My wife and I are considering the same plan you have outlined.  This thread has answered many of my questions.  

    1Reply
  • Matt M.
    Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Will R.:

    I am considering a life hack and wondering if anyone has real data or life experience that could help me make a decision.

    Not quite ski in/out, but 5 minutes from the gondola at Breck. $65k;)

    http://denver.craigslist.org/reo/5163587209.html

    1Reply
  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    @Dax Middlebrooks

    I am super excited about making this work but it seems like we are going to have to be creative and buy right. There are so many nuances on the mountain and while cost of construction is high it seems like most built options are just as expensive if not more. The right time to buy would have been a couple years ago... but I am certain if I wait long enough the right opportunity will pop up. 

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  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    @Matt M. Ha. I am not sure I could talk my wife into mobile home life. If it were on its own land for that price... then we would be talking. 

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  • Matt M.
    Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Will R.:

    @Matt M. Ha. I am not sure I could talk my wife into mobile home life.

    This one is actually a deal. Has MIL suite. A friend of mine has a very similar setup on the same hill. He gets almost $4k in rent a month. If you are serious, this property has potential. Bruce House

    Rent out one and live in the other.

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  • Will R.
    OP
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    @Matt M. This does seem like a good value add opportunity for the area. Is your friend making $4k/mo in a year lease or is that ski rentals? 

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