Flashy vs. Practical: Breaking out of my long-term rental niche.

Flashy vs. Practical: Breaking out of my long-term rental niche.

Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes

TL;DR: We are good at long term rentals, but we want a beach house. Is that a bad idea?

Background: My husband and I own a few (mostly local) long-term rentals that all have a positive cash flow. While I'm not finding the amazing numbers that some might find in other areas, I run very conservative numbers prior to purchase and usually get a better return than I anticipate. 

We know our own area well, and can almost always find deals that we'd like to pull the trigger on, but until we accumulate more cash, we can probably only purchase another $100-120k in property before we slow down and wait for our debt snowball to catch up (pay down the HELOC and eliminate the cheapest mortgage to open up standard financing options again).

Here is the conundrum: Another local long term rental (or two) would be a great decision, BUT a beach house sounds like a lot more fun.

Specifically, we are 2 hours away from Panama City Beach, and we are curious to get into a new type of real estate. We have the cash to get 1-2 places locally, or get a tiny beachfront studio that we could occasionally make use of. My husband would definitely want to use it once per month (even in winter) since he is a reservist in the coast guard there.

Do we boost our retirement fund by taking a more conservative approach at home, or do we get a property in PCB that allows us to pretend we're already retired for 2-4 days a month?

Considerations: 

- It's hard (maybe impossible?) to find a short term vacation rental property that will cash flow - especially of the small 350-700 sq. foot studios we can afford right now. (Any advice on this issue would be most helpful!)

- There are so many fees/costs and restrictions to consider. I am not excited about trying to accurately estimate the expenses or cash flow, but I am interested in becoming an expert in a new niche. (I've already begun work on spreadsheets, but finding out the specific fees and management rules for each condo/condotel is daunting and I don't want to start actually shopping until I know a lot more about each condo association).

- I am totally aware of the problems with condos. I plan to thoroughly vet each association, but there's only so much that you can do to ensure they stay on track.

- Use restrictions and potential profits during the busy season may prohibit us from getting the best use out of the place.

- Appreciation will likely be better on the beach. Or a hurricane will ruin it. There's really no way to know for sure.

- I may be too practical to let myself purchase a mediocre deal and I am not interested at all in a bad deal.

I realize this is an emotional and impulsive desire to have something flashy instead of another safer, practical rental, but I want to hear from you guys: Is it possible to find a cheap beachfront studio and make enough cash to consider it an investment, or would I just be throwing money away for a slightly brag-worthy deed?

Just FYI (as it may be helpful to someone out there), here is my list of questions for consideration regarding short term vacation rental condos:

What kind of short term rentals are allowed? (minimum/maximum nights, pets, etc.)

What kind of rental income does this unit generate?

What kind of rental income do other units similar to this one generate?

What kind of management does the association provide?

Are the rooms assigned rentals randomly or based on some sort of specified system?

Are we permitted to manage our own unit’s rentals?

What fees and restrictions does the condo assn impose on rentals?

Is there a maximum number of days of residency per month/year, etc?

Does the association provide water, electricity, high speed internet, cable, etc?

What kind of passes/permits/wristbands etc are required to access the amenities?

What kind of local regulations are there on short term rentals?

Has the association voted to waive funding of reserves at any time in the condo’s history?

Are the reserves fully funded currently?

Do the governing documents permit the association to waive funding of reserves?

Are there any special assessments in recent history or are any pending?

Are all advertised amenities in working order? (All pools are usable etc.)

What are the typical costs of utilities, property taxes, insurance and the cost of furnishing the property in a manner consistent with the rules? Who pays for damage to the furniture, missing dishes/utensils, etc.?

Are there rules for interior furnishings/decor?

What kind of preparations are provided by the management for storms/hurricanes?

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Real Estate Agent · Sevierville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y

I agree with @Mark S. and @Josh Engelhart.  STRs absolutely can and will cash flow - if you self-manage (completely possible long-distance) and if you have an appealing property in a solid market (PCB certainly seems to be).  The issues you're having right now are a) you're planning to hire a property manager, and b) you don't have enough cash right now to purchase a mid-range property.  Condo associations add to the issues and expenses.

It's great to have your own place to retreat to whenever you want - I'm at one of mine right now - but you really don't want to be the cheapest thing out there.  My vote is to either save up for a nicer property that will command a better rate and higher occupancy, or keep doing what you're doing and vacation at the beach. :)  

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  • Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes
    8y

    *An additional consideration is that we WILL be financing the deal with only 20% down. That alone may preclude us from cash flow. It is my understanding that for investment condos, we can expect 6%+ interest rates if we insist on a 30 year fixed rate from the few lenders who will even consider non-warrantable condos.

  • Investor · The worst town to live in, KS · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    Look for a different niche.  I rent my 22 STRs to refinery contractors.  They all live 6+ hours away and come to this town to work short term jobs as welders, pipefitters, boilermakers, electricians and such.  They just need a place to sleep, cook their food and do their laundry.  I give them all that and much more.  I buy bank foreclosures at 25 cents to the dollar and furnish them from estate auctions.  6 months of rent on a house will pay the purchase price of a house.  It can take 7-12 months to get 6 months of rent.  I can't imagine maying payments for 30 years on an investment.

  • Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes
    8y

    I realize that I could be making more money doing real estate if I spent more time getting into a totally new niche, but I’m pretty happy in my day job for now, and I’m not ready to give that up. I’m willing to venture out a bit, but I don’t have the time to go all out into a new career. I could certainly benefit from learning more about buying foreclosures, but don’t have much time to fix anything up (other than a weekend project here or there) so I’m not able to buy anything sight unseen. I have bought a short sale before and that worked out quite well, but we’ve tied up quite a bit of our cash for now, so buying properties with cash isn’t likely in the cards for us right now. 

    As for 30 years.. With our current debt snowball plan we will be debt free on all of our existing rentals in just over 7 years (even if we never increase the rent - which we of course will be doing). That’s not too bad for a part time gig.

  • Lender · Powell, OH · Member since 2016 · 97 posts · 64 votes
    8y

    It sounds like you know or think there is a high likelihood this will not cash flow. If you can stomach that, pay for it, and realize it's not an investment but a luxury and still want it you should probably go for it because you really want it. In the right area it will probably go up  in value over time as well

    If you you want this to be a profitable cash flowing asset it sounds like you need to keep looking and/ or start looking at different things.

  • Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Josh Engelhart:

    It sounds like you know or think there is a high likelihood this will not cash flow.

    The biggest problem I'm having is accurately running the numbers. I'm looking at property management fees ranging from 10-30%, miscellaneous fees/costs at varying intervals (cleaning, furniture replacement, special assessments), nightly rental rates ranging from $50 to $150, and totally unknown vacancy rates that vary drastically from building to building. The only numbers I would know with any reasonable accuracy are costs for utilities/phone/cable, insurance, property taxes, HOA fees, and mortgage payments.

    I suppose the best way to do it is to start requesting information from the listing agent and the condo association for each of the properties we are looking at, but I'm so used to being able to do my own analysis on properties before reaching out to anyone. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 142 posts · 79 votes
    8y

    @Megan Silver   IMO, take the money and buy the other 1-2 next properties for LTRs in your current area.  Spend a few grand a year and vacation at the beach.  It's not worth the hassle of dealing with beach renters -- especially the ones that will be looking for the smallest/cheapest place possible. 

    You can add to your portfolio of proven winners and continue to expand your existing business.  The beach is attractive, but vacation there and you'll get it out of your system ;)

  • Real Estate Agent · Sevierville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    I agree with @Mark S. and @Josh Engelhart.  STRs absolutely can and will cash flow - if you self-manage (completely possible long-distance) and if you have an appealing property in a solid market (PCB certainly seems to be).  The issues you're having right now are a) you're planning to hire a property manager, and b) you don't have enough cash right now to purchase a mid-range property.  Condo associations add to the issues and expenses.

    It's great to have your own place to retreat to whenever you want - I'm at one of mine right now - but you really don't want to be the cheapest thing out there.  My vote is to either save up for a nicer property that will command a better rate and higher occupancy, or keep doing what you're doing and vacation at the beach. :)  

  • Property Manager · Wisconsin and Florida · Member since 2017 · 346 posts · 227 votes
    8y

    You can make money on vacation rentals even ones that are managed but you have to find the right property and property manager. I've been looking in the panhandle and found that in one of the areas we were looking, there was about a 10% gross rental per year on purchase price.  i.e. $1 million property brings in $100,000 per year. The Kissimmee area is closer to 20% $1 million property brings in $200,000. We didn't look at condos recently because of the high fees and risk involved but we do own condos in Wisconsin that do well. We bought one for $51,000 that brings in $23,000 a year but the condo association is such a PITA. 

    I see all over this site that you will lose money if you use a property manager. Certainly, you will have less profit but you won't "lose" money unless you pick the wrong property or the wrong property manager.  Our property owners each make profit on their properties that we manage. I also have talked with owners in FL who profit from their managed properties. 

    The way I look at is paying someone to do the things that they are good at which frees up my time to do what I'm good at or whatever the hell I want. I pay someone to do my bookkeeping and taxes and I pay someone to clean my properties. Sure, I could do them myself but why waste my time when they have the systems and knowledge to get me up and running much more quickly? So if you are looking to get into STR and DIY, it can be done. If you're looking to get into STR but not have to do the extra work involved, it's also doable. It's all about finding the right property manager, one that seeks to fill vacancies and market your property in creative ways rather than just list it on their website. There can be a steep learning curve with STR but it's definitely doable.

  • Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes
    8y

    I think @Julie McCoy is absolutely right that since we can't afford a mid-range property, we aren't going to get the best rates and occupancy. @Mark S. also makes an excellent point that we probably don't even want to deal with the vacationers taking the cheapest options.

    @Wendy Schultz - If I could devote more time either to the management or fixing a place up, I'm sure I could make the numbers work, but I suppose that what I'm really looking for is a cool place to vacation, not a new project. I think our limited options due to cash constraints would likely force us into the "wrong property." We were primarily looking at condos because of the amenities that WE would be interested in, not because they would bring in more money. That should have tipped me off that I wasn't properly balancing the investment potential with our vacation desires.

    I think I will keep an eye out for a gem on the coast in the future, but I don't think I'll pass up a deal here at home in the meantime.

    Also, I may need to hit the beach this weekend!

  • Property Manager · Wisconsin and Florida · Member since 2017 · 346 posts · 227 votes
    8y

    @Megan Silver Sounds like a wise choice. If you want to look at it from the perspective of breaking even, you could make it work but I'd also recommend a midrange property like Julie did to get the rate you'd want for the amount of work it requires. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Sevierville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Megan Silver I do want to add that the reason I focus on mid-range properties isn't (just) because of your budget constraints - but because those properties will (generally) be more stable in terms of rate and occupancy; even during an economic downturn, guests who might usually go for a luxury property will scale down to mid-range, and you avoid the headaches of budget renters.

    I'm glad we were able to help you clarify your thoughts on this!  And of course, if the right property does come your way, we're happy to help you get off to a successful start.

  • Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Julie McCoy:

    @Megan Silver I do want to add that the reason I focus on mid-range properties isn't (just) because of your budget constraints - but because those properties will (generally) be more stable in terms of rate and occupancy; even during an economic downturn, guests who might usually go for a luxury property will scale down to mid-range, and you avoid the headaches of budget renters.

    I'm glad we were able to help you clarify your thoughts on this!  And of course, if the right property does come your way, we're happy to help you get off to a successful start.

     Thanks a bunch! I am also a fan of mid-range properties. The hardest properties to rent (in my own experience) are the best house and the worst house on the block!

  • Rental Property Investor · Panama City Beach, FL · Member since 2017 · 44 posts · 44 votes
    8y
    My two cents: I have purchased 3 beach front condos in Panama City Beach. All 3 cash flow nicely. I self manage and get closer to 20% revenue relative to purchase price. So a 430K property would yield a gross revenue of close to 80K a year. Here’s one of the catches. No 30 year fixed mortgages. These are non - warrantable loans. I also own LTR and the ROI comparisons on the STR blow the doors off of my LTR. A few CAVEATS: you have to own key properties (3 and 4 bdr) to maximize rent and they have to be exceptionally nice. You have to literally have the nicest properties in the building or you can get crushed by your competition. Ping me privately and I am happy to discuss in more details.
  • Investor · Tustin, CA · Member since 2016 · 5 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Marc Johnson Agree that the right STR's can do very well and very often better than LTRs. Financing is important and owning in the right city & location.

    Using a property manager can often increase your ROI, rather than decrease. What does their fee include? If they pay for advertising, paper supplies, handyman, it may pay off. A good property manager also stays alert of any changes in government trends and regulations and is able to participate with municipalities as well as keep you informed.

  • Investor · The worst town to live in, KS · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    What @Marc Jackson said ^^^

    I have it pretty easy.  My competition is motels.  All I have to do is provide a kitchen with utensils and appliances, and a washer/dryer in a furnished house.  That puts me ahead of the competition.  But I go overboard and put in kegorators, horseshoe pits, fire rings, grills, Rokus on an HDTV, etc.

  • Real Estate Agent · Emerald Coast, FL · Member since 2016 · 820 posts · 486 votes
    8y

    I'm a big proponent of "LIVING while you live" AND I also have STRs in PC (over the bridge from PCB) that cash flow for me and are not waterfront at all (but just 6-8 miles from PC Beach). 

    Out of curiosity, I just ran an MLS search of condos in the city of PCB (some are beachfront and some are not) and came up with 54 options under $150K - some as big as 1,430 sq. ft.

    Let me know if you'd like more information.  Vacasa also has an online tool that you can use to run numbers.  I haven't used it, but I do have it and would be happy to pass it along.

  • Real Estate Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2012 · 265 posts · 58 votes
    8y
    @marc Jackson can you PM me please. I tried to message you and it says you have blocked that feature.
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