Upstate New York Investment Property Turnaround

Upstate New York Investment Property Turnaround

Member since 2019 · 2 posts · 1 vote

I bought a house in Woodstock, NY about 5 years ago.  It was always meant to be a weekend home whose costs I could partly cover through AirBnB...I wasn't as thoughtful or concerned about the annual loss in the early years but now realize it's taking away from my efforts to build wealth - though I don't regret the great times I've spent there with friends over the years.  It's a great quirky house on 26 acres.  I've had about 150 rentals over the 5 years and great reviews on AirBnB.  Generating about $35k-$40k in rental income a year. But the taxes are really high in the area ($15k per year) not to mention high gas and electric bills.  All-in, I'm still losing $20k a year on this place.  I see a path to maybe close the gap by $10k by being smarter on costs, increasing rental pricing, etc.  But struggling to fully close the gap. 

While it may be that I need to just sell the property and reinvest with a real strategy now that this is a focus, I'd love any creative ideas on how to get more value out of this property.  2 thoughts I had: (1) trying to negotiate the taxes down - any tips from people who have been successful here?  (2) the land is actually already on 2 separate tax lots.  Maybe I should consider selling the vacant land on 10-acre lot..or even developing it with a small tiny home or something and selling that.  

Thanks for any thoughts on specific tactics or creative thinking here!

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Luke CarlPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tennessee Florida · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 5k+ votes
6y

@Jesse Bull My markets are VERY heavy traffic so my brain immediately goes to trying a bit harder to get bookings. Are you managing thing thing from your phone or using a PM?

I’m fairly easily 85% booked year round. 90%+ 10 months per year with Jan-Feb bringing my annual percentage down 5 points. These numbers are self managed from a distance. While I do live near most of my VRs I’m constantly traveling and really have no idea where I’m going to be or when.

There are quite a few fairly easy ways to get more bookings but again the market will only produce what the market will produce and I don’t know the market.

NOTE: 90% of Airbnb is booked 30 days in advance or LESS.

Ideas:

Change minimum night stay (the lower the min the higher the occupancy)

Get a hot tub

Stalk your neighbors and see if they are doing better and WHY

Adjust Pricing (the lower the pricing the higher the occupancy. This is of course a fine line)

Better pictures and more of them (hire a real estate photographer)

Install a mini golf course (Friend of mine did this recently and is killing it. You’ve got plenty of land. Mini golf is just some 2x4s and some AstroTurf. Can DIY for next to nothing)

Try more Platforms (Don’t limit yourself to Airbnb. Try VRBO Homeaway Flipkey Booking.com etc)

Hope this helps good luck!

Typed on an iPhone.

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  • Luke CarlPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tennessee Florida · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    @Jesse Bull My markets are VERY heavy traffic so my brain immediately goes to trying a bit harder to get bookings. Are you managing thing thing from your phone or using a PM?

    I’m fairly easily 85% booked year round. 90%+ 10 months per year with Jan-Feb bringing my annual percentage down 5 points. These numbers are self managed from a distance. While I do live near most of my VRs I’m constantly traveling and really have no idea where I’m going to be or when.

    There are quite a few fairly easy ways to get more bookings but again the market will only produce what the market will produce and I don’t know the market.

    NOTE: 90% of Airbnb is booked 30 days in advance or LESS.

    Ideas:

    Change minimum night stay (the lower the min the higher the occupancy)

    Get a hot tub

    Stalk your neighbors and see if they are doing better and WHY

    Adjust Pricing (the lower the pricing the higher the occupancy. This is of course a fine line)

    Better pictures and more of them (hire a real estate photographer)

    Install a mini golf course (Friend of mine did this recently and is killing it. You’ve got plenty of land. Mini golf is just some 2x4s and some AstroTurf. Can DIY for next to nothing)

    Try more Platforms (Don’t limit yourself to Airbnb. Try VRBO Homeaway Flipkey Booking.com etc)

    Hope this helps good luck!

    Typed on an iPhone.

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    6y

    Everything Lucas said.

    Yes to doing something with the extra land to turn it from a liability to an asset that is making money. Maybe sell or lease the land if you don't want to put more rentals on it.

    Use a wifi water heater and thermostats to save on utilities when no one is there.

    Market your place on Facebook, Vrbo, Craigslist etc to boost your occupancy rate.

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    Around here with some creative Ag work we can get an Agric. Taxation assessment on at least a 10 acre property. In the past we have also combined adjoining property & that dropped our tax assessment a little. Fighting for a reduction in assessment has NEVER been a successful endeavor for us & we've done a few. 

    Then again we do have a investor friend we have helped a lot who is a veteran & his TOTAL tax bill on his principal (assessed @ $98k) is a library tax of $4.19/year. Maybe time to join the Reserves!!!

    Good luck.

  • Investor · The worst town to live in, KS · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    Try to appeal your taxes.  The worst thing that can happen is that they say no.  I'm doing the same thing today at 4:30 this afternoon at the assessors office.  One property went up 40% in value and 2 others went up 33% in value from last year.  I do this every year, and within 3 weeks I usually get a letter in the mail and it shows that the value of my property has been reduced.

    Having the value reduced is a good thing.  The taxes are based on the property value.

    Another way you can market your STR is to travelling workers, not people on vacation. I think there is some guy on BP that does that with refinery contractors. But that is another thread.

  • Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 543 posts · 716 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jesse Bull:

    I bought a house in Woodstock, NY about 5 years ago.  It was always meant to be a weekend home whose costs I could partly cover through AirBnB...I wasn't as thoughtful or concerned about the annual loss in the early years but now realize it's taking away from my efforts to build wealth - though I don't regret the great times I've spent there with friends over the years.  It's a great quirky house on 26 acres.  I've had about 150 rentals over the 5 years and great reviews on AirBnB.  Generating about $35k-$40k in rental income a year. But the taxes are really high in the area ($15k per year) not to mention high gas and electric bills.  All-in, I'm still losing $20k a year on this place.  I see a path to maybe close the gap by $10k by being smarter on costs, increasing rental pricing, etc.  But struggling to fully close the gap. 

    While it may be that I need to just sell the property and reinvest with a real strategy now that this is a focus, I'd love any creative ideas on how to get more value out of this property.  2 thoughts I had: (1) trying to negotiate the taxes down - any tips from people who have been successful here?  (2) the land is actually already on 2 separate tax lots.  Maybe I should consider selling the vacant land on 10-acre lot..or even developing it with a small tiny home or something and selling that.  

    Thanks for any thoughts on specific tactics or creative thinking here!

    Main thing i can think of is this: if you’ve got 26 acres, put up multiple houses so you have multiple revenue streams. Of course that will cost you up front & still might not work.

    So here's your biggest issue: your primary market are vacationers from nyc. BUT: Woodstock is one of only like 50 charming towns they can choose to visit on wknds. So your competition is literally every single other STR within 3 hrs of nyc... and there's literally thousands & thousands & thousands of them. Also no one really wants to be in Woodstock in November. Or February. It's only charming certain months of the year.

    Personally I’d sell & invest in a southern market that attracts people year-round. It’s cool having 8 million possible guests living in nyc until you realize they each have 8 million options for where to vacation for the wknd.

    Also, as you mentioned, property taxes & electricity costs tend to be BRUTAL in the northeast. Another thing that kills ROI

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ and Rehoboth Beach DE · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Jesse Bull I stay at Airbnb’s in Woodstock for a few days every summer, so it pains me to tell you that in 2019, the town passed ridiculous laws governing short term rentals. 

    https://www.dailyfreeman.com/n...

    The new policy mandates that short-term rental owners:

    • Rent to guests no more than 180 days per year and no more than 26 weekends per year.

    • Provide guests with copies of local laws regarding noise, fire and safety, as well as a map showing the boundary lines of neighboring properties.

    • Correct compliance issues within 24 hours of notification by the town.

    • Register with Ulster County for inclusion on a list of rental properties.

    • Post a safety/egress plan in a visible location inside the building and on the back of each bedroom door.

    • Provide the town Building Department with contact information for rental properties that are not owner-occupied.

    The new policy also states that short-term rental “homes” will be limited to renting out two bedrooms at a time, with no more than two guests per bedroom; while short-term rental “establishments” can have up to five bedrooms available, also with no more than two guests per room.

    Also, short-term rental sites that are nor owner-occupied will be required to have a designated person who lives within 10 miles who is “available to promptly deal with emergencies” and compliance issues.

    The Town Board has yet to set a limit on how many short-term rental properties can operate in Woodstock and has not yet established any fees that short-term rental operators could be required to pay.

  • Rental Property Investor · New York City · Member since 2019 · 703 posts · 538 votes
    6y

    If you can't be bothered with going to the assessors office and trying to get your taxes lowered there are lots of RE attorneys that specialize in this throughout NY, google it.  Typically, they charge 50% of the first year tax savings. So, if you are currently at 15K and they knock it down to 12K you pay $1500.  

    high taxes are a killer for rentals. At my primary i'm paying 19K for 1/3 (100'x150') of an acre.

  • Investor · The worst town to live in, KS · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    One weeks rent typically pays one years property tax on my STRs.  But property is really cheap in my market.  $6-$8 a square foot, with CH/A.

  • Robert TinkerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2019 · 251 posts · 159 votes
    6y

    Is there an Agriculture exemption or lower ag rate. Put some fence up and add cows or goats. I don't know New York ,but I know in Texas this can be an option.

  • Paul DeSilvaPro Member
    Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 148 posts · 252 votes
    6y

    @Jesse Bull We've combined two tax lots in Ulster county and I reduced the tax bill significantly.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    26 acres in Woodstock you can set up a mini Woodstock experience with local cover bands and sell tickets $$$

  • Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes
    6y
    I consider a lot of these regulations is quite reasonable.  Short term rental is a commercial business and the neighbors should be protected first

    Originally posted by @Lauren Kormylo:

    @Jesse Bull I stay at Airbnb’s in Woodstock for a few days every summer, so it pains me to tell you that in 2019, the town passed ridiculous laws governing short term rentals. 

    https://www.dailyfreeman.com/n...

    The new policy mandates that short-term rental owners:

    • Rent to guests no more than 180 days per year and no more than 26 weekends per year.

    • Provide guests with copies of local laws regarding noise, fire and safety, as well as a map showing the boundary lines of neighboring properties.

    • Correct compliance issues within 24 hours of notification by the town.

    • Register with Ulster County for inclusion on a list of rental properties.

    • Post a safety/egress plan in a visible location inside the building and on the back of each bedroom door.

    • Provide the town Building Department with contact information for rental properties that are not owner-occupied.

    The new policy also states that short-term rental “homes” will be limited to renting out two bedrooms at a time, with no more than two guests per bedroom; while short-term rental “establishments” can have up to five bedrooms available, also with no more than two guests per room.

    Also, short-term rental sites that are nor owner-occupied will be required to have a designated person who lives within 10 miles who is “available to promptly deal with emergencies” and compliance issues.

    The Town Board has yet to set a limit on how many short-term rental properties can operate in Woodstock and has not yet established any fees that short-term rental operators could be required to pay.

  • Broker, Investor, Wholesaler · Kingston, NY · Member since 2010 · 71 posts · 20 votes
    6y

    As someone who owns a STR, and is a RE broker in Woodstock, I would not combine lots - the tax decrease would be minimal, and you may not be able to sub-divide easily again.

    You don’t need a separate lot to put up a tiny house.  You might sell the lot if it’s not that important to your existing home - or put up a larger house, and sell it o off-set your current costs.

    Your income is very low.  Guessing you are assessed somewhere btw 550-600k, and likely have a good sized house.   lower your weekday rental rate and keep weekends high.  Limit the number of guests at the discounted rate - you should be able to get your income up....

    Hope that helps a bit!
    Cree

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ and Rehoboth Beach DE · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Ken Latchers so you consider it reasonable that you can only rent your house out 1/2 of the year?  And that there's a limit of 4 people in your entire house, no matter how many bedrooms?  I don't consider that reasonable at all.  

  • Member since 2019 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    Wow!  My first post on Bigger Pockets forum and so many amazing thoughtful responses in 24 hours.  Thank you.  What a cool community.  Lots of great points here.  @Lauren Kormylo - yes this is another challenge. I am going through the application process now for STR but it absolutely limits potential to increase rental days and also means I cannot put another rental on the other property as far as I understand. Not arguing whether the law is right or wrong but certainly doesn't help my situation.

    I'll definitely look into the tax reduction approach. Sounds like mixed results from various people but worth the effort and learning experience.  @Mark Miles you are right there is a ton of competition.  I could do more marketing outside Airbnb as others suggested but going back to Lauren's point, that actually may not even be an option now!  Depending on benefits of selling the land or tax reduction, cashing out and looking at other markets may be the right way to go...

  • Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes
    6y
    I didn't pick out any particular one of the regulations.  Is hardly a dreaded thing to only be able to rent out half the year when most places in the northeast are only booked on weekends. In addition, some areas have become overrun with vacation rentals and the residents are always come first, not short term rental owners who want to make a profit.

    it is called zoning. It is job of the zoning officer and Zoning Board to manage according to their code for the benefit of the residents. Not for remote order seeking to maximize and line their pocket.

    vacation rentals are nothing special. They regulate salon and gas stations and everything else according to the rules. Short term rental owners areare unhappyhappy about it, but that really doesn't matter.

    posted by @Lauren Kormylo:

    @Ken Latchers so you consider it reasonable that you can only rent your house out 1/2 of the year?  And that there's a limit of 4 people in your entire house, no matter how many bedrooms?  I don't consider that reasonable at all.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ and Rehoboth Beach DE · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    You can only rent your place out 1/2 the weekends too.  So that would impact even the Northeast, especially when you're trying to increase your income like the OP is.  I'm not against some restrictions, but that is not reasonable. 
    The places I've stayed in there are owned by locals who live in town, or are guest houses next to the main house where the owner lives.  I haven't rented from a remote owner yet.

      
    posted by @Ken Latchers Is hardly a dreaded thing to only be able to rent out half the year
    when most places in the northeast are only booked on weekends.


  • Rental Property Investor · Glens Falls, NY · Member since 2016 · 176 posts · 169 votes
    6y

    Market the extra land to hunters to lease during hunting season? I know guys that will pay great money for great land. 

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