Real Estate Investor · Wooster, OH · Member since 2009 · 42 posts · 1 vote
I think it's criminal. It will be the direct cause of many, many deaths, especially of the elderly. A man from the British parliament was on tv the other day and stated that in the U.S. a man with early prostate cancer has a 5-year survival rate of 100%, the Britain, with their socialized healthcare, it's 77%. So nearly 1/4 of men with that condition would die.....just because of the stupid, bureaucratic, inefficient, uncaring system.
Yeah, I really want the equivalent of the Dept.of Motor Vehicles deciding what treatment I or a loved one can have!!!
Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
17y
Pam I agree with you 100% on this. Glad to see some logical people who see through the deceit and lies this administration is pawning on the American people.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by Pam Marcum:
A man from the British parliament was on tv the other day and stated that in the U.S. a man with early prostate cancer has a 5-year survival rate of 100%, the Britain, with their socialized healthcare, it's 77%.
Some questions about this, as it's not clear that the causal relationship you are claiming actually holds:
- Can you provide any source for this claim that 100% of men with early prostate cancer live for 5 years in the U.S.? This seems very unlikely.
- What about all the men in the U.S. who don't get diagnosed with early prostate cancer because they don't have health care and therefore don't get screened for it?
- What makes you think that the disparity in survival rates (if there is any) is due to the economics of the health-care system, and not due to their being better doctors in one country vs the other (perhaps because there are better schools)?
So nearly 1/4 of men with that condition would die.....just because of the stupid, bureaucratic, inefficient, uncaring system.
Again, what about all the people in this country who die because they go untreated because they can't afford to get screened? How do you propose we keep them from dying?
Yeah, I really want the equivalent of the Dept.of Motor Vehicles deciding what treatment I or a loved one can have!!!
If you have private health insurance, you already have that. Insurance companies make the final decision on what treatments they will pay for, NOT YOU OR YOUR DOCTOR.
And, it's even worse than the DMV because the insurance companies are a for-profit organization...they don't care if you live or die, only that they get your money.
Real Estate Investor · Wooster, OH · Member since 2009 · 42 posts · 1 vote
17y
I didn't say the system we have now is perfect, it needs work. But Obama's ideas are the exact opposite of what we need. We need things more privatized, not beauracratized. I can fight my insurance company. It's not fun, but so far I've always gotten what I wanted/needed. In contrast, I worked for the VA system as a psychologist, and I worked in one that was considered fairly good. It STUNK!!!! I KNOW what govt. healthcare is going to look like, and believe me, you don't want it.
Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
Pam, Pam, Pam - tisk, tisk, tisk. You aren't seeing the big picture. Just remember Billary's words - "it takes a village...". It takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to provide food for deadbeats. It takes a village to provide Section 8 housing to the lazy. It takes a village to provide food stamps to 1 out of every 11 Americans. It takes a village to run GM. AND IT CERTAINLY TAKES A VILLAGE TO DECIDE WHETHER THAT PROSTATE CANCER SHOULD BE TREATED. Too old? No treatment! Not a good socialist? No treatment!
It makes me feel warm and fuzzy to know that big brother is taking care of my every need, including deciding when I should die! One less decision I have to make. President Obama, may I have health care so I can live or would you like me to just have pain medicine and DIE?
Real Estate Investor · Wooster, OH · Member since 2009 · 42 posts · 1 vote
17y
You're right Mike, I forgot what this was all about. We're all too stupid to make our own decisions, and the nanny state knows so much better. I mean, it has always worked so well in all the countries where it's been tried, like Russia.
Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
17y
I'm glad that J Scott from Atlanta is on here. We need opposing views. Here are mine.
1.In our presidents' apparent desire to turn our country into a socialistic state, he now has "appointed" nearly 3 dozen Czars and Czarinas, that have no one overseeing them, except obama.
2. Everything he said would be transparent has been a lie.
3. We have to "do it today" has been his response to every crisis. None of those benefitted the U.S. as of now.
4.USA Today explains obamas' true stupidity in comments yesterday. In talking about how wonderful Fed EX and UPS work as private companies, that should be our standard. Then he not only sticks his foot in his mouth, he bites it off at the knee!! He continues to say that those are the type companies we need, not companies like the US Post Office... Who runs that?
Yet, he wants us to feel good that now the czars etc that run aig, fannie and freddie, B of A, govt motors want to run healthcare.
I just haven't seen anything from obama that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about my grand kids debts that obama is ramming down their throats.
I don't care about where he came from, ethnicicity, birth cert etc. I only care about him making the U S a 3rd world country in the eyes of many. They're doubting Americans strength, fortitude , intelligence and financial wherewithal. That is what makes me sad. Enuff is enuff. Slow down with naming more czars, or spending more funds on bills that no one even understands or has read. Go check paragraph 304 in one of the sections of the stimulous bill on publicly owned real estate. It is scary. Rich in TX.
Rich in TX.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by Rich Weese:
I'm glad that J Scott from Atlanta is on here. We need opposing views. Here are mine.
1.In our presidents' apparent desire to turn our country into a socialistic state, he now has "appointed" nearly 3 dozen Czars and Czarinas, that have no one overseeing them, except obama.
2. Everything he said would be transparent has been a lie.
3. We have to "do it today" has been his response to every crisis. None of those benefitted the U.S. as of now.
4.USA Today explains obamas' true stupidity in comments yesterday. In talking about how wonderful Fed EX and UPS work as private companies, that should be our standard. Then he not only sticks his foot in his mouth, he bites it off at the knee!! He continues to say that those are the type companies we need, not companies like the US Post Office... Who runs that?
Rich -
You assume that I have a opposing views because you assume that I staunchly defend Obama. I don't.
I absolutely agree with you on #1, #2, and #3 above. As for #4, I don't know anything about the comments he made yesterday, so I'll reserve judgment.
People want to think that I'm completely partisan and support a political ideology just so that they can feel good about the fact that they're completely partisan and support one specific political ideology.
The problem is, that's not true for me. I think Obama has made some horrific mistakes in the past 6 months, has rushed through some bills that never should have been rushed through, has broken some serious promises, and has threatened some key liberties we currently hold.
I've said that on plenty of occasions, but people ignore that because they don't like it when I'm not playing partisan politics.
While I don't staunchly defend Obama (I really don't care how he's viewed personally), I do try to staunchly defend the truth.
In other words, I won't stand for lies and mis-truths just to slander a politician I don't like. I won't let people talk about "death panels," and "euthanasia" and "heathcare kickbacks," etc, without some evidence to support the ridiculous statements being made.
The typical conversation I have in these threads is that someone will attribute some completely ridiculous "fact" to something coming out of this administration, and I'll ask for some proof of this "fact." Instead of providing any proof, I'll be called a "liberal," "socialist," "nazi," or whatever, when all I did was ask for some support of a ridiculous statement.
I'm sorry if I burst your bubble by agreeing with everything you said above, but what you said is true (in my opinion), and I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing, like so many others here who are just trying to incite anger and hatred.
Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
I'm doubting America's strength, fortitude, financial wherewithal, and especially intelligence too! Furthermore, I think Obama and the socialists are going to find a way to take all that wealth that you have been building for your grandchildren LONG before they get it! You're particularly offensive to the socialists Rich, you've built some real wealth and you don't want it redistributed per Obama's wishes!!! Some time in a re-education camp will do you wonders!
Sounds like crazy talk, doesn't it? What did the Russians do when they had their great socialist takeover? What did the Nazi (National Socialists) do in Germany when they took over? Do you really think that history will be different this time?
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by MikeOH:
What did the Russians do when they had their great socialist takeover? What did the Nazi (National Socialists) do in Germany when they took over?
Okay, so the Nazis rounded up and killed everyone who was "different."
That's horrible...it seems clear that we should be doing the exact *opposite* of that...
Hmmm...what's the opposite of killing everyone who is different?
Let's see...how about providing medical treatment to *everybody* regardless of who they are or where they're from.
Yeah, that's it! So, you're saying that if we want to be the opposite of the Nazis, we should figure out a way to ensure that everyone has good healthcare.
Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
Unfortunately, you still don't get it. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with healthcare - every single person in the US gets healthcare now. It IS about control. The government wants to take over 1/6 of the economy to add to the vast portions of the economy they already control. Do you think socialism in Russia or Nazi Germany were about helping the population? Did it really feel like help to the MILLIONS of people the Germans and Russians exterminated?
The same is true of Cap and Trade! The socialists know that global warming is a big scam. What they want is more CONTROL!
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by MikeOH:
Do you think socialism in Russia or Nazi Germany were about helping the population? Did it really feel like help to the MILLIONS of people the Germans and Russians exterminated?
Okay, got it...
So, you're pretty sure that the socialistic policies in Sweden, Norway, Canada, Cuba, Egypt, etc, is going to lead to mass exterminations there as well?
Can you give me some reference that will indicate a causal relationship between socialistic policies and mass exterminations of groups of people? Or are you just making it up on your own?
Sorry that I'm asking you to verify your assertions, but when you claim that what's happening will lead to these kinds of atrocities, I think it's a reasonable request...
See, this is an example of my comment to Rich above about asking for some evidence when I hear something that I don't understand. Normally, I wouldn't be provided with any evidence -- just a personal opinion based on nothing -- but I'm sure you wouldn't be making these horrific claims without any support from reliable sources.
Plus, we would need to warn the Canadians and the Swedes before it's too late.
Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
Yes, I agree that the Medicare program should be terminated. However, the problem with Medicare and Social Security is that all the currently old people have paid into that system for decades and have been promised benefits (even though the government can't afford to keep its promise). So, obviously, social security and health care benefits need to continue in some form for all of the elderly that have already paid in. Theses programs need to be eliminated for anyone that is young today!
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by MikeOH:
However, the problem with Medicare and Social Security is that all the currently old people have paid into that system for decades and have been promised benefits (even though the government can't afford to keep its promise). So, obviously, social security and health care benefits need to continue in some form for all of the elderly that have already paid in.
So, are you saying that socialism is okay as long as it's done as a fulfillment of a promise?
Or, are you saying that socialism is okay if there is no better alternative?
Does that mean that we should plan to give away the rest of the TARP money to the needy companies because we promised it to them and they're expecting it?
You clearly aren't against all socialism, so how do you differentiate which are good and which are bad?
Real Estate Investor · Wooster, OH · Member since 2009 · 42 posts · 1 vote
17y
Mike is just kind enough to not take something away from elderly people that was (mistakenly) promised to them....and then phase out a bad program for us younger people.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by Pam Marcum:
Mike is just kind enough to not take something away from elderly people that was (mistakenly) promised to them....and then phase out a bad program for us younger people.
I understand that. That's very compassionate of him (I mean that 100% seriously).
But, that sends the message that Mike believes compassion is a reason to implement (or continue) a socialistic practice.
Which is great. I agree with that.
So, if being compassionate is a reason to have socialistic practices, let's implement health care reform to provide compassion to all the young, poor people as well.
Why do old people deserve more compassion than young people?
Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
Pam is right, I am NOT for any socialism. Likewise, I am not for breaking our contract with older Americans who PAID into Medicare and Social Security for decades.
All these socialist programs need to end. The current group of elderly PAID for their Medicare and Social Security and our committment to them needs to be honored as the socialist programs are stopped for younger Americans.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by MikeOH:
Pam is right, I am NOT for any socialism. Likewise, I am not for breaking our contract with older Americans who PAID into Medicare and Social Security for decades.
So, what takes priority? Ending socialistic practices or upholding contracts?
If it's ending socialistic practices, I assume you would agree that we need to get rid of Medicare NOW, even if it means breaking contracts.
And if it's upholding contracts, I assume you would agree that everyone who has ever paid into Medicare should have access to it for the rest of their lives. Which means Medicare will need to be around for another 80 years or so (there are a lot of people like me who have paid a lot of money into Medicare but who are a long way from earning benefits).
So, which is it? Get rid of Medicare now and break contracts or let it continue for the next 80 years or so and continue the socialistic practices?
Real Estate Investor · Wooster, OH · Member since 2009 · 42 posts · 1 vote
17y
If I had to choose, I'd end it right now. And churches and families should take up the slack.
And we should all read this:
"The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining NOR aiding them in their pursuits." - Thomas Jefferson "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." - Thomas Jefferson "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson "To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." - Thomas Jefferson
Real Estate Investor · Wooster, OH · Member since 2009 · 42 posts · 1 vote
17y
I said if I had to, as in if I were forced to choose between never ending it and ending it now. I'd rather grandfather it out. But I fell for your forced choice scenario. I forgot, that's what you all like to do, make up forced choice ethical scenarios to make it look like people are uncaring.
Read my lips, Medicare was a stupid idea. It should never have happened.
But since it did, and we are caring, compassionate people, we would grandfather it out so that younger people had time to get used to the idea of actually taking care of themselves again.
Funny, you didn't comment on Mr. Jefferson's quotes.....