WTF!!! I wish I was illegal

Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes

So as many know the SB1070 was to go into place at 12:01am tonight but the judge just ruled blocking the KEY components of the law.

Law enforcement are not required to make a reasonable attempt to determine immigration status.

illegal immigrants DON'T have to APPLY or CARRY legal document/ I.D because its not a crime!!! I'm required by LAW to carry my identification and I'm a LEGAL citizen.

Its also ok now for the crowd of illegal immigrants to stand out in front of Home Depot and solicit for work. If I were to seek employment, I must provide identification.

Here's whats funny, the judge is allowing some of the silly stuff like making it a dumb@ss misdemeanor for harboring/transporting illegals. This means that I can become a coyote and charge $1500 a head for transporting them and if I get caught, get a slap on the wrist :roll:

Seriously, whats going to be left of our great nation if illegal immigration isn't dealt with and enforced.

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Timothy W.

Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes

16y

Originally posted by Tracey Bowers:

One thing I know for certain is most contractors beat their wives. Not you Bill, but everytime I have ever listed a job on craigslist and looked up prospects, that ole domestic abuse charge always pops up.

This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard on this forum, and I've heard some severe loads of crap here. You need to think before you open your mouth next time given the number of contractors turned investors on this forum.

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Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
It's funny how the small government types are in favor of big government when it comes to their personal obsessions. No wonder our politics is so dysfunctional - everyone wants the government to come in and help them on their favorite issues and stay out of other things. Except nobody can agree on which issues the government should get involved in and, as a result, we have a government that gets involved in everything. And then we all complain about bloated government, high taxes, etc.
1 Reply
Bryan Hancock
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
I want big (no...huge) government when it comes to protecting me from people trying to kill me. On the other issues the government should get out of the way.

Agreed..everyone has different "pet" issues.
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Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
I, too, want the government to focus on core governmental functions, such as protecting the country. I just think that immigration control is a pretty poor way to do it. In fact, I think it is a terrible idea that would harm the country by reducing one of the few sources of economic growth.

I guess this is one of those issues where everyone thinks their opinion is right and opposing viewpoints are dumb. (Kinda like most everything else in politics these days.)

P.S. When I say I am opposed to immigration control, I am referring to ideas such as putting up a big wall, deporting illegal aliens, etc. I am not opposed to airport security and other measures to actually protect the country.
1 Reply
Bryan Hancock
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
How is it that putting up big walls and such does not protect the country Vikram? You seem to keep going back to economic arguments, which I thought we agreed on. Just form policy to let people in legally and we can grow our populous and compete with China for economic superiority.

I don't think your opinion is dumb...I just don't agree with it from what you are claiming. Keeping people that shouldn't be here out of the country is necessarily good for national security. How can this not be the case?
1 Reply
Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Bryan, there are a lot of things that one can do to improve security. The wall idea was tried a while back by China and it did not help very much. It will help somewhat, but, as Israel is finding out in Gaza, people dig tunnels, etc. under walls so then you will also need to put landmines all around. I just think a world in which we have "gated countries" is quite a horrible idea and reminds me more of science fiction horror movies than anything I would like to see in my lifetime.

I think the illegal alien problem can be quite easily solved and our security can also be improved by substantially increasing legal immigration from Mexico. Then the money that goes to people who transport them can instead go into visa fees, verifying backgrounds, monitoring, etc. And once we do that, the entire illegal industry will get wiped out because illegal cannot compete effectively with legal. (And your concern about nuclear bombs being walked over from Mexico can also be solved because the bomb carriers will not be able to hide among thousands of non-bomb carriers.)

I actually think the war against illegal immigration is quite similar to the war against drugs. It is much better to make these things legal so that we can monitor them better. Our prisons will also be less crowded and tax dollars can go into more productive things.

As a general principle, I think it is much easier for the government to prevent or reduce things that very few people want to do (e.g. homicide) than activities that millions of people want to engage in.
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Bryan Hancock
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
Well it isn't just walls...It is walls with GUNS on the top of them with instructions to shoot at anyone that comes near them on the other side.

We also should toss the illegal's employers in jail. Both of those policies will fix the problem with illegals very quickly.

Let more people in legally...I have no problem with that at all.

So is it your position that open borders with economic fixes will protect us from people smuggling in weapons to kill us?
1 Reply
Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y

It depends on what weapons you are talking about. If you are concerned about conventional weapons, then you will realize that they are easily available locally and one need not import them from anywhere. If you are referring to nuclear weapons, then the best controls for them, so far, have been controlling the supply of critical parts through concerted international export controls on sensitive technology.

We need to remember that Mexico is not directly connected to Iran, etc. In order to bring a nuclear weapon from the Middle-East into Mexico, you need to take them in on a ship or fly them in. It is far easier and much more effective to control ports and airports than thousands of miles of land borders. (BTW, before you start off suggesting that you do not trust the security at Mexican ports, I need to tell you that U.S. airport security is one of the weaker ones that I have seen in my travels.)

I also do believe that land borders are more easily monitored when they are desolate than when they are regularly used by people. So if we could channel the illegal immigration into legal immigration, that will divert all the immigrantion to normal roads and airports. That will allow our border security people to patrol the borders more effectively.
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Bryan Hancock
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
Fair enough...i still think it is a massive hole in our national security with the current open borders.

I also don't trust Canada's or Mexico's security. There aren't people constantly trying to terrorize those places so they don't have a vested interest in defending themselves the way we do.
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Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
16y
My plan is very easy. The government buys a one mile strip of land along the border. On the south side put up a fence, chain link is fine, go 50 yards further north and put up a second fence, 10' high. Then lay land mines north of that fence for a couple hundred yards, then a 10' fence and 50 yards north another fence like the first. Hang the signs on the outer fences. Then the only crossing you would have would be at controlled points! Easy. Everytime you hear a boom, fly over and replenish the mine field. No problems.

Really, the issue needs a complete overhaul with real penalties for those who come in and those you employe them and those that hosue them, but it will never happen, never happen, IMO.
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Mike M:
Does the US Constitution pertain to the entire world or only US Citizens? Rhetorical question.

If the citizenship of the person is in question, do you apply Constitutional law if they are on US soil?

Mike -

This is a VERY key question in all this, and while you may have meant it to be rhetorical, I think it's very important that everyone know the correct answer (as most don't):

The Supreme Court has held in many cases that the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment applies to illegal aliens, and therefore they are protected under the Constitution while on U.S. soil.

Of notable supporting case law is Plyer v Doe:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0457_0202_ZO.html

Of equally notable supporting case law is the ruling made yesterday regarding the AZ law.

So, yes, just like it would be illegal for the state to require that I carry papers documenting who I am, it is equally illegal for states to require this of illegal aliens.

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Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
J Scott is right. As a matter of fact, that's why we have all these alternatives to bringing people on to U.S. soil, such as Guantanamo Bay, extraordinary rendition, etc.
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Tom Bukacek
Real Estate Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2009 · 118 posts · 76 votes
16y
The fix to the problem is simple:
1- require 2 forms of legal I.D. to qualify for any social service
2- require 2 forms of legal I.D. to enroll children into schools
3- require 2 forms of legal I.D. to rent an apartment
4- fine businesses who hire illegal aliens

What we don't need is a wall. I remember being the country that encouraged other countries to 'tear down that wall' in the 80's. If we cut off free govt education, free govt money, and don't allow living and wage opportunities, then the problem will solve itself.
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Bill Patterson
Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
16y
Originally posted by Tom Bukacek:
The fix to the problem is simple:
1- require 2 forms of legal I.D. to qualify for any social service
2- require 2 forms of legal I.D. to enroll children into schools
3- require 2 forms of legal I.D. to rent an apartment
4- fine businesses who hire illegal aliens

What we don't need is a wall. I remember being the country that encouraged other countries to 'tear down that wall' in the 80's. If we cut off free govt education, free govt money, and don't allow living and wage opportunities, then the problem will solve itself.

Tom,
I.D. is a problem. It is easy to get fake I.D. There was new law put in place a couple of years ago that made employers responsible to verify I.D.'s and legal status. Very unfair for the employers! It is very difficult to do and none of the above list are required to do so, except the employers who face substantial fines if they make a mistake! This is a case of government shifting their responsibility to citizens. Why? Because they can't do it either!
Bill
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Bill Patterson:
This is a case of government shifting their responsibility to citizens. Why? Because they can't do it either!

Actually, I like this solution (shifting the responsibility to the citizens)...

This is the best way to allow the American public to vote with their actions.

Do people who own businesses really want illegal immigrants out of the country? Or are they happy to have them here? If they really want them out of the country, they'll refuse to hire them.

Likewise with property owners. Do those who own rental property really want the illegal immigrants out of the country? Or would they prefer to have them here renting their property? If they really want them out of the country, they'll refuse to rent them property.

If a significant portion of the business owners and rental property owners really are against having illegal immigrants in the country, then the immigration problem should go away, shouldn't it?

The problem is, I think many of these business and property owners are two-faced about their beliefs -- they say they don't want illegal immigrants in the country, but they continue to hire and rent to them.

How many people here wouldn't rent a property to an illegal immigrant (who consistently paid their rent on time) if the alternative was having another vacancy?

(btw, that was a rhetorical question...I don't believe that many people will answer it honestly anyway)
Just my opinion...I'm sure others will disagree... :)

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3 Reply
Bill Patterson
Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
16y
Jason,
The employers don't have the tools to verify legal status. All forms of I.D. are forged every day. Illegalâ€™s can pay taxes and have copies if past tax returns. My problem is that this degree of due diligence should suffice. I-9's, SS #'s and I.Ds should protect the employer. They don't. If it is found that any of the above is forged or a visa expires, the employer is subject to fines. Maybe we should fine consumers if they buy produce that was harvested by Illegalâ€™s? Do you have any idea of how many "potential illegalâ€™s" work in the kitchens of your favorite chain restaurants? A lot of people do, but still support the establishment by eating there. Again, I think that shifting responsibility for this enforcement to citizens is wrong. Government needs to have a way to check legal status and make it available to employers.
Bill
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Bill Patterson:
The employers don't have the tools to verify legal status. All forms of I.D. are forged every day.

It's not true that you can't protect yourself from fines due to forged documents...

If you want to ensure that you won't be held liable for fines should documentation prove to be forged, the Department of Homeland Security will verify your employee I9 for you:
http://www.dhs.gov/files/programs/gc_1185221678150.shtm
Turns out in Arizona, while it's mandatory to check the legal status of employees, about a third of employers are actually using this system:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/07/28/20100728arizona-employers-ignoring-e-verify.html

Alternatively, a call to your local Social Security office can verify a person's social security number, and there are plenty of companies that do background checks that can verify that the person supplying the number is indeed the person to whom it was issued (as well as verify the I9 info and other forms of identification you collect).

Any employer who chooses to verify the identification of a potential employee can do so. It's not rocket science...and there's no excuse for hiring illegal workers.

But, like I said, I have a feeling most employers would rather NOT know if their employees are legal or not...

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5 Reply
Bill Patterson
Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
16y
Jason, I stand corrected! Thanks for the very good information that I was not aware of. I reviewed the website and information. It seems that there is a good program available.
Bill
1 Reply
J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Bill Patterson:
Jason, I stand corrected! Thanks for the very good information that I was not aware of. I reviewed the website and information. It seems that there is a good program available.

Thanks Bill...

This was just created back in 2005 (credit to George W), and I have a feeling a lot of smaller employers don't know about it.

I forgot to mention it above, but it's also FREE...
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Ryan A.
Rental Property Investor · Lisbon, CT · Member since 2008 · 120 posts · 29 votes
16y

That's the underlying issue. It is an INTERNAL CONFLICT. Should I...
>do what's right for my country and deny illegals employment?
>save money and hire cheaper labor?

You are absolutely right in saying it is up to the people. We say we don't want them here because of long term effects but our actions insist we DO want them here for the short term benefits for our-selfish-selves.
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Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y

I think even this is not something everyone agrees on. Many people, like me, believe that these people are good for the country and therefore there is neither a moral nor a financial incentive to refuse to hire them. The only incentive is the one of legal consequences. (BTW, I don't hire anyone without verification because the legal consequence is incentive enough!)
1 Reply
Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by J Scott:
...

How many people here wouldn't rent a property to an illegal immigrant (who consistently paid their rent on time) if the alternative was having another vacancy?

(btw, that was a rhetorical question...I don't believe that many people will answer it honestly anyway)

...

Just today, I refused to accept an application from undocumented individuals.
So, at least there is one.

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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
Originally posted by J Scott:
...

How many people here wouldn't rent a property to an illegal immigrant (who consistently paid their rent on time) if the alternative was having another vacancy?

(btw, that was a rhetorical question...I don't believe that many people will answer it honestly anyway)

...

Just today, I refused to accept an application from undocumented individuals.

So, at least there is one.

And there's no doubt that you're not alone, Steve... I'm sure there are LOTS of landlords who would do the exact same thing you did...

But, I'm guessing there are even more landlords out there who would happily accept illegal immigrants as tenants.

Which -- again -- is absolutely fine. So long as they don't have the double-standard that "they shouldn't be allowed in this country," but "I'll let them live in my rental property."

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1 Reply
Ryan A.
Rental Property Investor · Lisbon, CT · Member since 2008 · 120 posts · 29 votes
16y
Originally posted by Vikram C.:

Many people, like me, believe that these people are good for the country and therefore there is neither a moral nor a financial incentive to refuse to hire them

I'm confused. What people are good - illegals? How are they good besides for your wallet? This is exactly the issue. Let's not get confused- they may be good people and do good work. Its not the person but rather their status that is the issue.
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Vikram C.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Ryan, in my opinion they are good for the American economy and they are also good for America's long-term ability to stay ahead of other countries that are rapidly catching up to us, particularly China. The fact that they are illegal, in my opinion, says more about the poor immigration laws we have than about them. I do not for a moment buy the argument that these people take away jobs, use up government benefits at taxpayer expense without contributing their fair share of taxes, etc. I think those arguments are usually made by people who are somewhat uninformed about the way the economy works.
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Bryan Hancock
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
I do not for a moment buy the argument that these people take away jobs, use up government benefits at taxpayer expense without contributing their fair share of taxes, etc. I think those arguments are usually made by people who are somewhat uninformed about the way the economy works.

Please enlighten us then Vikram. These people aren't doing work that would otherwise be done by legal Americans?
How does the economy REALLY work?
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