Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
So as many know the SB1070 was to go into place at 12:01am tonight but the judge just ruled blocking the KEY components of the law.
Law enforcement are not required to make a reasonable attempt to determine immigration status.
illegal immigrants DON'T have to APPLY or CARRY legal document/ I.D because its not a crime!!! I'm required by LAW to carry my identification and I'm a LEGAL citizen.
Its also ok now for the crowd of illegal immigrants to stand out in front of Home Depot and solicit for work. If I were to seek employment, I must provide identification.
Here's whats funny, the judge is allowing some of the silly stuff like making it a dumb@ss misdemeanor for harboring/transporting illegals. This means that I can become a coyote and charge $1500 a head for transporting them and if I get caught, get a slap on the wrist :roll:
Seriously, whats going to be left of our great nation if illegal immigration isn't dealt with and enforced.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Tracey Bowers:
One thing I know for certain is most contractors beat their wives. Not you Bill, but everytime I have ever listed a job on craigslist and looked up prospects, that ole domestic abuse charge always pops up.
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard on this forum, and I've heard some severe loads of crap here. You need to think before you open your mouth next time given the number of contractors turned investors on this forum.
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
16y
Really? What law is that? I can't produce a pointer, but I suspect you're required to carry your driver's license if you're driving. But I don't think there's a law mandating you carry ID.
Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Wish you were illegal?? Really now?
The truth is that if you want to stand outside Home Depot for a job, you would not need to provide id either. The reason illegals do that is because they can't get the jobs you can because they don't have id. (nor should they be able to, IMO)
Just don't pretend that they are all the sudden better off than you because of this ruling.
The judge has only said the police are not REQUIRED to do this, they still can if they choose to just like they always have been able to.
Let the police decide if the situation seems necessary to try to determine status. If they don't do a good enough job in your opinion, then you have a complaint with the police.
I understand you are in a hot spot for this and some fixes are in order.
AZ should certainly be able to put measures in place to deal with it, they simply have to make sure those measures are within our constitution.
This is a complicated problem. I don't pretend to have the answers either.
This just wasn't apparently the exact right approach. They just have to come up with a better approach.
Same with our gun laws in Chicago. We tried one, they struck it down. We tweaked it and are trying another approach.
Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
A US citizen visiting any other country is required to carry a passport or other approved documentation. I believe most would even routinely ask for this if you were stopped.
You are required to provide documentation for employment and fill out an I-9. You must carry your drivers license and proof of insurance when driving. There are many instances that documentation is required.
How is it that illegals can drive, get jobs, get welfare and other assistance legally when they don't have proper identification?
The problem is that the government has looked the other way for so many years and allowed a situation that has become practically impossible to fix.
When I travel it always seems almost a farce that customs checks so closely. Illegals can come in openly and by the caravan full basically when ever they choose.
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Tom Cullen:
There is an election just around the corner folks!
TC
P.S. Don't drink and vote!
This issue has been screwd up for years. Funny how an issue comes to the forefront and who ever is in office gets blamed because the people woke up and caught a problem and then pointed their finger at the current guy in office!
Who benefits from having the illegals in the country, who benefits? The employers who hire them that's who. And who represents them......well, that's why it wasn't taken care of 8 years ago! Later....
An Nick, you don't have to carry any ID, unless you're driving a vehicle, but if you leave the country, say Europe and a cop asks for you passport/ID, if you don't have it you go to jail and don't get to pass go! You get to go when they figure out who you are.
Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Does the US Constitution pertain to the entire world or only US Citizens? Rhetorical question.
If the citizenship of the person is in question, do you apply Constitutional law if they are on US soil?
Who benefits from illegal aliens? Everyone who has eaten American Produce. Who gets hurts by illegal aliens? Everyone whose tax dollars give benefits to illegal aliens. So we are trading lower priced strawberries for kids in school with our kids, who can't speak English, thus dragging down the advancement of the entire class.
An overall view of illegal immigration will show that it is a much bigger detriment to the US economy than it is a help.
The border between AZ and Mexico is both a state and federal border. But once someone is on AZ soil, then states rights kick in and AZ has the right to "protect it's house" just as we have a right to "protect our house."
Real Estate Investor · MD · Member since 2010 · 124 posts · 84 votes
16y
It's funny how a talk about immigration is focused specifically on Mexicans as if they are the only illegal aliens in our country. What about Italians or Russians or Haitians or Cubans or Africans or people from everywhere else that come in illegally? Yes our tax dollars are going to support some of these people, but they come from all races and all nationalities. It's republicans and other bigots who keep the focus on Mexicans only. You think all terrorists are American now? I may not like that immigrants get our resources but many of them sure as heck work way harder than any American I know. I wish we could trade, send lazy Americans across the border for hard working immigrants. The world would be a totally different place.
Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
16y
Tracy has a point! Although she has a way of hitting me below the belt! Last discussion, I was a nasty Contractor, now I'm a Republican "bigotâ€! :lol:
For several years I was a partner in Chinese restaurants. We paid above average wages, had a great clientele (university towns) and although some of our workers over stayed their student visa's, they had SS #'s and paid taxes. The thing is....they could make more $$$ delivering Chinese orders than they could make back home with an engineering degree from the U.S.! I have seen their work ethic, too. As a contractor, I need to keep jobs on schedule. My drywall contractor has Hispanic crews. They do Top Notch Work, show up every day and meet any reasonable schedule I give them. The contractor's prices are comparable to non Hispanic firms. There are laws that require documentation of legal status and it is the Drywall contractor's responsibility to see that his workers are legal.
The point is....they are all good people and hard workers. I always catch flack when I talk about this, so I'm putting on my flack jacket and hitting "Post Reply"
Bill
Real Estate Investor · MD · Member since 2010 · 124 posts · 84 votes
16y
Oh man Bill, what can I do to make it up to you. Bill is not nasty everyone, lol. Bill there are good and bad in everything. One thing I know for certain is most contractors beat their wives. Not you Bill, but everytime I have ever listed a job on craigslist and looked up prospects, that ole domestic abuse charge always pops up.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
I personally welcome any and all immigrants. I don't blame them for wanting to be here and I certainly do agree on immigrants work ethic.
I would rather SB1070 not happen and it replaced with something better. Something more welcoming and beneficial for immigrants and citizens. Where is that line drawn? Who knows.
What really gets under my skin is the lack of enforcement of federal illegal immigration laws on both federal and state level.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Tracey Bowers:
One thing I know for certain is most contractors beat their wives. Not you Bill, but everytime I have ever listed a job on craigslist and looked up prospects, that ole domestic abuse charge always pops up.
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard on this forum, and I've heard some severe loads of crap here. You need to think before you open your mouth next time given the number of contractors turned investors on this forum.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
There are so many controversial comments on this small thread already (contractors beating wives, republicans are bigots, etc.) that I may as well make some controversial comments here.
When I first came to Arizona, I was driving around with another BP member and noticed some people hanging around by the roadside. Upon asking, I was informed that they were illegal aliens looking for work in broad daylight. My first reaction was shock. And then I thought to myself: what a wonderful country where people have the freedom to violate a law openly and nobody does anything about it. It think we have way too much government control over every little aspect of our lives that it is really refreshing to see these people be able to open flout immigration laws. I just wish I could do the same thing with the most annoying law in America - speed limits!
BTW, I do agree with some of the previous posters about the work ethic of immigrants. The ones that I have encountered have been wonderful hard workers. They are probably the legal variety but I suspect the illegal ones have to work even harder and perhaps with less compensation. I have no problem with enterprising and hard-working people coming to my town to reduce my cost of various services, such as cleaning my home, landscaping my yard, etc.
And finally, I think the comparison to other countries having stricter identification rules is not a good one. First, I hardly think it is a good idea to become more like Europe, etc. Second, whenever I have traveled in any country (and I have traveled quite extensively), I have always flouted the ID rules by leaving my passport, etc. in my secure hotel safe. I have never been arrested and I am sure most cops in most countries have enough common sense not to throw you in jail for a minor infraction like that.
Real Estate Investor · Amarillo, TX · Member since 2008 · 547 posts · 214 votes
16y
Originally posted by Tracey Bowers:
It's funny how a talk about immigration is focused specifically on Mexicans as if they are the only illegal aliens in our country. What about Italians or Russians or Haitians or Cubans or Africans or people from everywhere else that come in illegally? Yes our tax dollars are going to support some of these people, but they come from all races and all nationalities. It's republicans and other bigots who keep the focus on Mexicans only. You think all terrorists are American now? I may not like that immigrants get our resources but many of them sure as heck work way harder than any American I know. I wish we could trade, send lazy Americans across the border for hard working immigrants. The world would be a totally different place.
Because Mexicans are coming over at a greater rate then any other illegal IMO. It's alot easier to walk across the "border" then swim across the ocean. This came from someone not living in Southern Arizona, everyone I discuss this with from non southern states dont understand. Move to AZ and find out for yourself.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Scott Ricenbaw:
Originally posted by Tracey Bowers:
It's funny how a talk about immigration is focused specifically on Mexicans as if they are the only illegal aliens in our country. What about Italians or Russians or Haitians or Cubans or Africans or people from everywhere else that come in illegally? Yes our tax dollars are going to support some of these people, but they come from all races and all nationalities. It's republicans and other bigots who keep the focus on Mexicans only. You think all terrorists are American now? I may not like that immigrants get our resources but many of them sure as heck work way harder than any American I know. I wish we could trade, send lazy Americans across the border for hard working immigrants. The world would be a totally different place.
Because Mexicans are coming over at a greater rate then any other illegal IMO. It's alot easier to walk across the "border" then swim across the ocean. This came from someone not living in Southern Arizona, everyone I discuss this with from non southern states dont understand. Move to AZ and find out for yourself.
No no no... They can't walk across because Arizona doesn't border Mexico. A brilliant liberal told me so.
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
If states were serious about "fixing" the immigration problem all they would have to do is pass a law to make it a FELONY to employ illegals. When employers are tossed in jail the situation will correct itself very quickly.
I always think it is funny when people start talking about these people being hard working. The corollary is that Americans are lazy. This simply is not true! Americans are just addicted to making a better living than the slave wages we want to pay illegals. There are tons of citizens that would perform the same tasks equally well for more money.
Businesses benefit from cheap labor with the current policy so it won't change. This is a shame because porous borders are a severe national security problem. National security should be the NUMBER ONE (!!!) function of the government. This is another shining example of how poor of a job the government does at doing anything correctly.
Build big walls with guns at the top of them and throw people that employ illegals in jail for 20+ years with no appeals process. That will fix the problem over night.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Bryan, I pretty much disagree with everything you have said in your post!
1. Immigration is a federal matter so it is not up to the states to make it a felony if federal laws are violated.
2. The average immigrant, in my opinion, IS harder working than the average person born and raised in the U.S. I can see the difference in my contractors and I have seen the difference over many employees that I have hired in the past. Some Americans, of course, are extremely hard-working and motivated. But, on average, immigrants are harder-working. Once you hire enough people of both groups, you will realize that what I am saying is true. It is not a meant to be a slight and is simply an observation based on lots of experience.
3. Yes, businesses benefit from cheap labor. I consider that a good thing. I do not see any national security problems with the current immigration policy. As far as I know, most of our national security issues have come from home-grown terrorists or terrorists who flew in on planes with valid visas.
4. I agree that the government has been doing a poor job of enforcing immigration policy. I consider that a good thing and wish the government would do an equally poor job in enforcing the hundreds of thousands of pages of other regulations that make everything so bureaucratic.
5. Violation of immigration laws, in my opinion, should not even be a crime. It should be a civil offense. Crimes should be reserved for actions that cause significant harm to others or put other people in danger - not for simple economic activites.
In any event, my experience with political discussions has been that nobody every changes their mind on anything and things just get more strident with each post. :(
Real Estate Investor · Kalamazoo, MI · Member since 2010 · 681 posts · 241 votes
16y
Just so everyone knows......I am Bill's wife, and he definitely doesn't beat me! However, if he doesn't toe the line...............
Seriously, I think Tracey is joking, so no offense taken. This seems to be a polarizing hot topic with high emotions. I think I'll go back to talking about REI and short sales!
Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Charles Perkins:
How is it that illegals can drive, get jobs, get welfare and other assistance legally when they don't have proper identification?
They can and do get proper ID to drive. Illegals can get drivers licenses in most states. Incidentally they can drive here on their foreign license too just like we can drive with our US license in most countries.
They cannot get welfare, this is a myth. Though they can get Medicaid, though they are doing so in decreasing numbers believe it or not.
They often can get any number of jobs.
They often do have proper ID for these things.
Many, many illegals have legit ID like drivers licenses and state ID cards.
My illegal former nanny drives, has credit cards, has w-2 paying jobs, pays income taxes, goes to college. She has plenty of ID all gotten legally and even has a number that looks exactly like a SS#.
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
Bryan, I pretty much disagree with everything you have said in your post!
Cool...I like debating things with you!
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
1. Immigration is a federal matter so it is not up to the states to make it a felony if federal laws are violated.
Yeah...and it is a state matter when people are violating state laws. I am not a legal whiz by any stretch, but if the gov-mint won't enforce federal law the individual state should do so to protect its citizens.
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
2. The average immigrant, in my opinion, IS harder working than the average person born and raised in the U.S. I can see the difference in my contractors and I have seen the difference over many employees that I have hired in the past. Some Americans, of course, are extremely hard-working and motivated. But, on average, immigrants are harder-working. Once you hire enough people of both groups, you will realize that what I am saying is true. It is not a meant to be a slight and is simply an observation based on lots of experience.
I know TONS of hard-working Americans. Said Americans rationally don't do the work that slave wage earning illegals do. People are blinded in my experience by the fact that illegals toil away at some of the most back breaking work around. However, there are a ton of decent Americans that work 100-hour weeks doing crazy intellectual work too. Illegals don't have a patent on hard work and there are plenty of Americans that would do the work they do if they were paid more for doing so.
The same can be said for engineers competing with Indians willing to work for 30 percent of what they do. Only professions that impose quotas like medical doctors are immune from race-to-the-bottom wages and the supremacy of capital in the labor versus capital struggle.
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
3. Yes, businesses benefit from cheap labor. I consider that a good thing. I do not see any national security problems with the current immigration policy. As far as I know, most of our national security issues have come from home-grown terrorists or terrorists who flew in on planes with valid visas.
The current immigration policy allows for porous borders, which BY DEFINITION is bad for national security. People will change their tune very quickly when someone sneaks a dirty bomb across our border using standard techniques used to smuggle in narcotics right now. Securing our borders and protecting our citizens should be the NUMBER ONE job of the government. If the government's job isn't to protect me I don't know what they should be doing!
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
4. I agree that the government has been doing a poor job of enforcing immigration policy. I consider that a good thing and wish the government would do an equally poor job in enforcing the hundreds of thousands of pages of other regulations that make everything so bureaucratic.
I don't like the government getting involved in our business either. However, I DO want the government keeping people that don't belong in this country OUT OF IT. Unsecured borders are a recipe for terrorists smuggling in weapons TO KILL US. Whether or not this has happened is completely no the issue at hand. It could happen and it is very logical that we should do our best to prevent it from happening whether or not it means we have to pay a bit more for labor because of it.
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
5. Violation of immigration laws, in my opinion, should not even be a crime. It should be a civil offense. Crimes should be reserved for actions that cause significant harm to others or put other people in danger - not for simple economic activites.
Having porous borders and people here illegally DOES put other people in danger. It is not just an economic discussion about efficient markets, comparative advantage, etc.
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
In any event, my experience with political discussions has been that nobody every changes their mind on anything and things just get more strident with each post. :(
Possibly...I find that debating things brings out good points on both sides sometimes.
For the issue at hand I simply don't see how it is debatable that our current policy puts us at greater risk of an attack on our homeland. If labor costs 10X more I don't care. I would rather be poor and alive than dead and wealthy.
Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Bryan, I don't see why wages should be artificially propped up through controls on its supply, whether the control is by the AMA's refusal to accredit new medical schools or the government imposing unnecessary restrictions on immigration.
I am a bit of a traditionalist with regard to government. I see the rise of governments worldwide over the past century with distate and horror. I would love nothing better than to see governments go back to a much smaller role similar to what it was in the past. I am not sure if you know that passports and visas were not required for international travel until around the first world war. All you had to do to travel was to board a ship and hope that you survive the trip.
I understand that the world is more regulated today and we have a bunch of nut-cases who seem hell-bent on blowing things up because their Mullahs have convinced them that doing so will allow them to go to heaven and enjoy the company of a thousand virgins. (I wonder if the idiots realize that the only virgins in heaven are going to be old nuns.)
But I do not think the security argument really goes well with the anti-immigration argument. I think if we allowed more legal immigration from Mexico, we will remove the need for illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is an economic act. It is a natural act of a person seeking greener pastures. Humans have been doing it since prehistoric times and they are not going to stop it now. To prevent it would be extremely expensive and not worth the effort.
One final thought. People who are genuinely concerned about our long term security should be more worried about the rise of China than the crazy guys blowing things up. The best way to combat the rise of China is to increase our own population so that our own economy becomes larger. The ideal way to do this would be to encourage talented people to move here along with some proportion of less talented people to mow lawns, etc. We have a continent-sized country here and there is ample opportunity for growth.
Flipper · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 973 posts · 679 votes
16y
I agree with Vikram, to a point.
Yes, there should be less government. The problem is, it needs to be an overall drop in government oversight. You can't reduce the enforcement on illegals, while increasing federal aid, giving free health care, raising minimum wage and increasing the taxes on those that actually pay them.
Let them come in to work. Drop the minimum wage. Institute the Fair Tax. Drop income taxes. Let everyone pay their fair share, and market forces will see people being paid an appropriate rate for the work being done.
Edit:
Oh, and yes, China is a much bigger threat to the US than the middle east. China owns more US currency than the US. If they sell their cash on the international exchange, our dollar's value drops to nothing, and that loaf of bread is going to cost what the average person makes in a week.
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
But I do not think the security argument really goes well with the anti-immigration argument. I think if we allowed more legal immigration from Mexico, we will remove the need for illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is an economic act. It is a natural act of a person seeking greener pastures. Humans have been doing it since prehistoric times and they are not going to stop it now. To prevent it would be extremely expensive and not worth the effort.
Ah...They very much go together. Whether or not we allow more LEGAL immigration is a completely separate debate and one that we would likely see eye-to-eye on.
I disagree with the idea that preventing it would be expensive. Building a wall and manning it with guns is cheap compared with the real costs associated with our current policy. Tossing employers in jail for knowingly employing illegals would have real costs, but there would be fewer of these folks than you think. Jail time is a real deterrent for bad behavior and the situation would quickly correct itself.
Originally posted by Vikram C.:
One final thought. People who are genuinely concerned about our long term security should be more worried about the rise of China than the crazy guys blowing things up. The best way to combat the rise of China is to increase our own population so that our own economy becomes larger. The ideal way to do this would be to encourage talented people to move here along with some proportion of less talented people to mow lawns, etc. We have a continent-sized country here and there is ample opportunity for growth.
I completely agree with this. However, I think that it should be policy-based and done legally so that we can protect ourselves. Porous borders are a recipe for disaster many times the size of what happened in New York. National defense is issue number one! It is kind of like legal protection from nutjobs taking precedence over taxation when establishing entities. Both issues are important, but I am more worried about someone taking down the whole shebang than I am about the economic points.
Real Estate Investor · Elkhorn, WI · Member since 2008 · 453 posts · 104 votes
16y
Originally posted by Tracey Bowers:
It's funny how a talk about immigration is focused specifically on Mexicans as if they are the only illegal aliens in our country.
It's republicans and other bigots who keep the focus on Mexicans only. You think all terrorists are American now? I may not like that immigrants get our resources but many of them sure as heck work way harder than any American I know. I wish we could trade, send lazy Americans across the border for hard working immigrants. The world would be a totally different place.
Funny how when you posted this, nobody had mentioned Mexicans yet.
So republicans are bigots and contractors hit their wives...brainwashed by liberals lately?
Also, you seem to support open borders, but admit that terrorists are not typically American. Why wouldn't terrorists just come over the Southern border if we allow this to happen? Any terrorist with a brain could just walk right in, and we'll be there with open arms (and a social security check).
Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
16y
Originally posted by rich23s:
Originally posted by Tracey Bowers:
It's funny how a talk about immigration is focused specifically on Mexicans as if they are the only illegal aliens in our country.
It's republicans and other bigots who keep the focus on Mexicans only. You think all terrorists are American now? I may not like that immigrants get our resources but many of them sure as heck work way harder than any American I know. I wish we could trade, send lazy Americans across the border for hard working immigrants. The world would be a totally different place.
Funny how when you posted this, nobody had mentioned Mexicans yet.
So republicans are bigots and contractors hit their wives...brainwashed by liberals lately?
Also, you seem to support open borders, but admit that terrorists are not typically American. Why wouldn't terrorists just come over the Southern border if we allow this to happen? Any terrorist with a brain could just walk right in, and we'll be there with open arms (and a social security check).
Rich,
Mexico, coyotes, Arizona,.......We are most likely talking about our Mexican neighbors! This is a subject that neither side of the fence (pun intended) will give much on. Both sides have valid points. It needs fixing. May I also mention "amnesty for existing illegals, with a fine or some other reasonable punishment"? Before you jump on this, consider the logistics of moving all of the illegals back to where they came from. Think of the effect that it would have on produce prices, restaurants, construction, domestic services, etc. I did not want this discussion to fade away!
For the record....Tracy and I were just having fun together and bringing out different point if views! This discussion needs a little more fun and less intensity.
Bill
Close the border tight. Deport all the undocumented aliens, no matter what country they originated from.
Start a guest worker program to allow workers into the USA for short time periods, only when they have a verified job. They can leave their families in their country of origin, out of the schools and off of welfare.
If you legalize all the undocumented workers, they will no longer have any motivation to work hard jobs for low wages. So then you need to sneak in more undocumented aliens as cheap labor.
Undocumented aliens are not all hard workers. Some are drug smugglers, some come across the border to steal, a few are Russian mafia, tongs, or other organized crime. Some are terrorists. Some are slavers and sex trade workers. Some have a US born kid and go onto welfare, because the child is eligible. Some have brought contagious diseases into the USA which we either did not have or else had eradicated.
And hey, lots of them vote in our elections because no one verifies citizenship.
Get control of the borders and then it's possible to have a reasonable program concerning labor.
I find it objectionable to reward law breakers with the coveted USA citizenship just because they have been a law breaker for several years., And by the way, it's easy to get documentation that proves you've been in the USA for years even if you only crossed the border (illegally) yesterday.