BIGGER than Hyperinflation?

BIGGER than Hyperinflation?

Developer · Member since 2010 · 72 posts · 31 votes

After the interesting discussions going on here at BP, thought I would share a parallel discussion which is ongoing amongst my circle of friends:

During the housing bubble, we were watching. We have some knowledge of Austrian Theory of Economics, still learning it at that time, so when the collapse came we were not surprised. After outrage about how large banks got bailouts, gave themselves bonuses, etc, I proposed that anger was like spinning wheels in the mud. Like fighting the weather. We, having identified what was going on, and identifying that we were basically powerless to effect any change in the system, should prepare our lives so that our family and friends would not be harmed by what was going on.

Thus some, along with me began to learn more about eating healthy, inflation, economics, etc. But the most interesting thing we found was that there is not enough of everything. We are using materials at a rapidly increasing rate, while the basic materials are not growing. Copper, iron, lead, etc are finite resources. A second item is that we tend to mine the easily recoverable chuncks first, thus leaving the hard to extract, low grade ores for our future. And this is as demand is increasing.

Resource shortage could have a bigger impact on our lives than any and all govt printing of money. In other words, the debt forced austerity measures will pale in comparison to what happens when oil is more expensive to extract from the ground, when copper, lead, aluminum, iron, etc are lower grade and deeper (higher price to extract, higher price to refine, oil is a huge component of their price), when aquifers decline (see India, OK panhandle, etc) and farming is not economic (also, oil is a huge constituent of food production via fertilizer, tillage, transportation, etc) and on and on. In short, our easy lives are about to become more expensive, and in the long term unsustainable.

We then said, ok, got it. Then what? It goes back to our basic needs first, food, water shelter, etc. When those needs are met, we can progress to the next level of Maslow's Pyramid. I mentioned farmland, prime farmland with a good water source, land that was not denuded by modern chemical farming, land that was near population centers (who are you going to sell to?) yet somewhat distant from the turmoil of the major cities. As far as where, the US midwest was our choice. Water, sun, great soil, not a ton of people compared to other parts...

And just in the last week I read an article which seems to dovetail with these assumptions, except the author has a research staff to help him with the evidence.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53865070/GMO-April

It is an enlightening and well researched report on what is likely to come. And much more well written than this short post by myself. I think after reading it you may concur that it will have a bigger effect on our lives than hyperinflation.

Tony.

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  • Flipper/Rehabber · Seminole, FL · Member since 2010 · 859 posts · 316 votes
    15y

    Thanks tony. Gives us a lot to think about for the future

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    15y

    Tony- WOW!!!! I read all 19 pages and checked out ALL the graphs. Very worrisome. Here is my short cliff notes version.
    The good times will be more difficult.
    2002 was the last good year for hope.

    Commodities (33 major ones) continued to drop in prices for over 100 years, till 2002. Now, all are rising with no stop in sight.

    New players China and India are inadvertently going to add serious BIGGER problems. The new consumers are going to further lessen our supply of almost evrything. The remaining supplies are not laying on top of the ground or mine-those are already gone. Whats' left is MORE expensive to go get.

    China has been spending OVER 50% of GDP in capital improvements. Never done before by any country in history. Can they continue?

    China is currently buying ALL the following commodities at a rate of 38-57% of the entire world supply! Will it get higher? The higher demand and tougher to get supply will exasberate the situation.

    The 38-57% of supply pertains to the following:
    cement
    iron ore
    coal steel
    lead
    zinc
    aluminum
    copper

    Notice no OIL. They only require 10.8 % of the supply currently. What happens when that gets to 37%- then add India to the equation.

    Economics is simply supply and demand. The 19 pages do a good job of explaining the certain rise in demand and the reduction AND cost to supply.

    A great read and great graphs/charts- but it isn't for a one stop toilet stop! Rich

  • Developer · Member since 2010 · 72 posts · 31 votes
    15y

    From Rich-

    "I read all 19 pages and checked out ALL the graphs. Very worrisome. Here is my short cliff notes version."

    Rich, you did an excellant job summarizing the report.

    However, I do not see the need to worry. Yes, it portrays a drastic change coming, and not a good one, but I always feel that when you have identified the problem, then the next step is to work on a solution. For this there may be no "fix" type of solution until a magic way of converting solar energy into electricity at high levels of effeciency occurs, so then it shifts into preparing for the eventuallity. I feel that when you are preparing, you do not need to worry, worry just gets in the way and causes negativity. Not picking on you here, and yes there should perhaps be worry for all of us who are not prepared, but what is is, and what will be, will be. Nothing we can do except prepare. And that we now CAN do because we have the appropriate knowledge.

    This is not an attack on what you wrote, Rich, just something that is conditioned in me by now. When people come to me with a complaint, I ask if they have a solution. When people worry, I ask what they are worrying about, and what is the solution. Action brings relief to stress and worry in many instances, but prior to action adequate knowledge is needed. It is funny how sometimes people equate correct knowledge as bad, because it brings them news they do not want to hear. (It has been shown that most humans are wired to believe the easy lie, rather than accept and face the hard truth... I say that again and again, and try to remind myself of that at every major decision I make to prod myself into thinking which choice I have taken...) The worry or stress should act as a signal that you need to prepare, that you need to dig into this subject so you understand it and can properly prepare. My wife once commented to me that I worry about situations like this, that is why I am reading so much about it. I said no, I am not worrying anymore, I am preparing. That is why I read about this topic, economics, real estate, food, etc, to gain some knowledge so that I may make an informed decision.

    Rich, I wish you the best. I have enjoyed reading your advice and have learned immensely from you. It gives a good feeling to reciprocate a bit and see that someone else "gets it".

    Tony

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    15y

    No problem Tony. I've been aimed at here on BP in situations a lot worse than this. I'm one that definitely DOES prepare.
    In reading this info, I saw oil as only a small problem, actually, that MAY be fixable. I've always been concerned about trends. With the trends downward in ease of obtaining all commodities listed and the certain trends in upward pricing and demand in supply, I do see a train wreck coming.
    Unless you can find a replacement for all those commodities listed above quickly, and cheaper, how do you slow the train down?
    I've yet to see electric pwer come anywhere close to being useful or realistic in price.
    Somewhere on BP I had a thread or blog about alternate energy. Prior to Y2K, (2000) I prepared for the collapse. I won't go into detail, but I bought 20 acres next to National Forest in Utah and made it self sufficient: 2 homes, 70' serviceable wind generator, automatic tracking solar panels, a roomful of batteries, a half acre pond (12' deep with rubber liner) and a deep well.

    It also had a 24x30 garage built OVER a concrete basement of same size with steel door entrance. Basement was full of everything needed...with lots of extra.
    This was my solution to potential concern and also to alleviate the unknown for 6 kids. I do attempt to be a problem solver when possible.
    Being concerned doesn't always fix the problem. Action doesn't always do it either.The boy with the key on a kitestring didn't fix electricity on the first attempt. I just haven't seen too many replacements for commodities listed yet. If you have, please share.
    We are extremely fortunate for having great ag lands and adaquate water,,,,so far. As article pointed out, wierd weather has hurt for awhile. Hope we really aren't getting climate change.... Rich

  • Engineer · Bel Air, MD · Member since 2009 · 136 posts · 24 votes
    15y

    So what is everyone doing to personally prepair for this?

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2008 · 557 posts · 70 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Thorney Gibson:
    So what is everyone doing to personally prepair for this?

    I went with precious metals a couple years ago. I like that they are currencies among central bankers. That and I continue to pick up few food items that have an long shelf life each time I am grocery shopping. Going by the inflation adjusted high for gold, $2400.00 and silver, $133.00 we may have room to go. Two years ago the consensus in the mainstream was that people "buying" precious metals are "crazy". That consensus holds true to this day. I take that as one sign that it's not yet too late to buy metals yet. But that consensus is changing. Once the mainstream consensus is "those to do not buy precious metals, or those who sell precious metals are "crazy", It's probalbly too late.

    We're not there yet, but closer. Watching silver and gold spike up during Bernanke's press conference today is telling. The metals may get bubbly very soon.

    There may be other commodity plays that are more undervalued and have a lot of upside. Natural Gas, certain agriculture plays, water purification companies.

    Obviously real estate!

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    15y

    Matty- I had to reply to your shelf life comment. I've always considered myself pretty current on expiration dates etc. of commoddities. Well, the other day I learned something.
    I had some 12 paks of diet coke that we'd bought on sale a few months ago. I opened one and thought it must've been prepared wrong. It was horrible! I looked on the bottom of the can and there is a date that was past time.
    Check when you buy. Depending on the store, some dates aren't very far down the road!!
    In response to comment about other commodity "plays", I'm too dumb in that area of expertise. I buy metals to hold, period. Rich

  • Member since 2010 · 136 posts · 3 votes
    15y

    Please don't preach to me about Maslow's Triangle and environmental doomsday. If I wanted a sermon, I'd go download one.

    By the way, Maslow also said that anybody or anything that holds you back from your "inner desires" should be rid of. He also doesn't delineate which inner desires are evil or wrong. Maslow didn't even believe in evil. So please stop the preaching.

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    15y

    HUH?

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Rich Weese:
    HUH?

    what Rich said

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2008 · 557 posts · 70 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Rich Weese:

    Check when you buy. Depending on the store, some dates aren't very far down the road!!

    Thanks Rich. Yep. Some of the goods I've purchased have already passed their "Best if used by" date.

  • Developer · Member since 2010 · 72 posts · 31 votes
    15y

    I do not think that this will happen all at once, rather a slow decline in the affordability of our current standard of living due to resource depletion leading to higher costs. Most will not notice it right away, and I do not know if the mainstream will admit and face up to the fact that current livestyles will need to change to adapt to reality.

    When you think about it our current lifestyles are running on petroleum. Oil is basically stored energy from the sun (via photosynthesis) in a superdense source. I have heard estimates that one barrel of oil is the equivalant of 10,000 man hours of labor. I do not understand how that can be possible, but anyways the fact remains that oil allows us to work less and enjoy more. If the oil gets more expensive, so does our lifestyle. And the same for all other materials mentioned in the study.

    I would say that simple is best when learning to adapt to this event: chickens, garden, etc. Many of my friends have chickens. Some let them roam free, some have movable cages that they can place in a place to be weeded. The chickens thrive in the sunshine, eating bugs, weeds, etc. The eggs are very good (and healthy, do some research) and chickens are easy to to take care of.

    A garden is not that hard, and provides lots of chemical free food (if you do not put chemicals) and teaches kids where food comes from.

    We have a root cellar for storing potatoes, carrots, roots, etc. Not too hard to do, and the rewards are worth it.

    And even if there is unlimited oil, copper, etc at easy to mine prices, even if the prices go back down and stay down, it is not a bad thing to do these things, so win - win in my mind.

    Tony

  • Real Estate Investor · fountain hills, AZ · Member since 2011 · 9 posts · 1 vote
    15y

    One possible energy source we as a Nation should be looking at is Thoreum Nuclear Power. I know, I know, but Google it and consider it. We should be having a National debate about it. NASA developed a Thoreum Nuclear Plant in the 70's but the terrible downside at that time is you can not make bombs out of Thoreum as you can Uranium. Also on the plus side no "meltdown" possibilities.

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