Bitcoin and Fear Discussion. Fact from Misinformation

Bitcoin and Fear Discussion. Fact from Misinformation

Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes

I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind about Crypto, specifically Bitcoin, nor do I expect this post to be popular or liked by 95% of BP users

I really like the money podcast and I’m listening back and am starting to see that @Mindy Jensen's hate for bitcoin comes from a total lack of understanding, which like in all things, leads to fear. To a lesser degree @Scott Trench as well but only because so far, he’s had less to say. But from what he’s said, doesn’t seem to understand it and doesn’t seem interested. Scott mentioned he thinks something else will come along – sounds logical, and I have friends who know little about BTC that have said the same thing. No one knows. But if you look at the fundamentals, growing support, dominance and market cap, and understand it, you end up with a better platform to base your decisions from. One example, a better Amazon hasn’t come around yet. A better internet either. There are thousands of crypto, which Mindy calls all of them Bitcoin, and at some point, I think we will see a lot of them disappear. Scott also says it has “no intrinsic value”, another phrase I see repeated often. I have friends who have said the same thing but can't define the word "intrinsic".  I’d like to ask Scott what the word intrinsic means to him, without looking it up! Because you could say the same about printed fiat currency. Money Show 86 with David Stein was telling. 

But don’t we think it’s important to understand what crypto is, what makes it useful, and the differences between all of the offerings? Just like any other asset class? They are not all the same.

David Steins advice that one should be able to explain something before investing is solid fundamental advice. On the other hand, wouldn’t everyone agree that one should be able to explain what something is before they hate and recommend against it? Not understanding and not investing is one thing, it’s a good reason not to invest in fact, but actively hating something that isn’t understood seems dangerous, especially when giving financial advice.

For instance, Mindy recalled something that might have happened in Greece that caused the price of BTC to sink to $6k – details are fuzzy, such as what exactly happened, when, what the price was before and after, and how it affected BTC

In this episode (86) there were a couple of points that had fuzzy or non-existent details and facts – don’t we think those are important when deciding for or against something?

Doesn’t it seem like giving financial advice out of fear, emotion, or/and lack of understanding, is dangerous?

One thing Mindy said did make sense, it is volatile. If the volatility is beyond your threshold, even when you believe in something, you might avoid it. But undersatand it first! 

When I started investing in BTC, it was early 2015 when it had fallen from previous highs of over $1,000. I bought at $246.

I held since and have seen gains in the 1000%. Not even my real estate purchased at the bottom of the last crash, has performed that well

Even given the volatility, since 2009, we've not seen anything perform like BTC. Look at Apple stock January 2015, which traded at around $110. It's at $227 today. Do the math from the same period against BTC. 

I invested no more than I could afford to part with, I understand it, I believe in it, adoption is growing, and I could write another two pages

I think if anyone has rational questions, not emotional hate, post up and we can discuss things. 

What's past is proglogue. People hated the automobile, MP3's, electric elevators, and were afraid of flight. Anything can happen, but if you're curious, I'm here to have a discussion 

3Reply
24 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Nipomo, CA · Member since 2014 · 366 posts · 401 votes
6y

@Scott Trench Before getting into it I will mention that I've been a holder of various currencies since 2015, but do not consider myself an expert. I will do my best to explain as I see things, but welcome others with more knowledge to expand and/or point out inaccuracies. 

"Bitcoin is similar to hundreds of other cryptocurrencies. Each crypto has it's nuances, it's slight differences. But, at the end of the day, there seems to me to be no particular reason to me that Bitcoin will be the one universally adopted in the end. Perhaps it has odds over, say, KodakCoin. But, why Bitcoin vs. Litecoin? Vs. Ethereum? Vs. XRP"

I think this highlights why more research should be done before making strong opinions one way or the other. As you put it, Bitcoin's value is in its ability to replace other currencies (such as gold or fiat) as a store of value. With that being the case, why would people choose Bitcoin over the others? 

Gold is the best comparison, as BTC is often called digital gold. It may not be tangible in the sense that you can hold physical BTC, but the code that surround BTC is irrefutable. I think both of these currencies are complimentary. One is physical, the other digital. As long as you hold your private keys, you will always be in control of your BTC. Just like if you lock you gold in a safe, you will always be in control of your gold. Give it to a 3rd party to store, and that is where BTC and Gold both become vulnerable. 

Fiat government currency has shown that it is not a good store of value. The system is centralized to a max and is subject to inflation. BTC will never be inflated. It has a fixed supply that cannot be changed. Fiat currency is constantly being printed, causing it to lose value over time. 

Ethereum is a different concept from Bitcoin. The goal of Ether and the Ethereum blockchain isn't really to be a store of value. It is attempting to be a platform for development of Digital Autonomous Corporations (DAOs) as well as as Smart Contracts. This is a different use case entirely than Bitcoin, so I do not really see the two as competitors. 

Similarly, XRP was not created to be a store of value. It is currently being used by banks and financial institutions to help with cross border payments and to manage liquidity costs. If I remember correctly, the creators have mentioned that crypto investors should not be seculating with XRP, as the price of the token is intended to stay low. In addition, Ripple appears to fairly centralized compared to other cryptocurrencies. 

LTC on the other hand has a lot of similarities with BTC, making it the most obvious competitor. The main reason Charlie Lee created LTC was to improve the scalability of BTC. There are some differences, such as processing speed, but the functionality is largely the same. 

So why would someone choose BTC over LTC? 

There is an important point that many BTC maximalists will pount to. There is no creator/owner that can be easily pointed to. BTC is a protocal created by an anonymous entity and is now entirely run by the people who make up the ecosystem. LTC, and all other currencies, have a central founder. Even if the coins themselves are entirely decentralized, they still have founders/leaders who can heavily influence the community. 

I highly encourage you to listen to actual experts, as again, this explanation was just my best attempt. The two podcasts I'd recommend were done by The Investor's Podcast. This podcast is normally focused on stocks, but they did two back to back on Bitcoin. 

The two I recommend are #259 with Dr Saifedean Ammous and #260 with Plan B. The main takeaway I received by listening to these two episodes was the concept of stock to flow, and why this is important when deciding upon a store of value. 

See this reply in the discussion

45 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    Hi Eric - I appreciate that you enjoy the BP Money Show, and appreciate that you have a different opinion on Bitcoin. 

    My argument against investing in bitcoin is simple - Bitcoin's value is in whether other people trust in it and will use it as a store of value. Maybe you don't like and perhaps you are right in bringing up "the dictionary definition of intrinsic means this..." argument in my word choice. Fair enough.

    In my opinon, I feel that unlike Amazon, unlike a rental property, unlike owning a debt, unlike owning a company (public or private), unlike owning a royalty stream, or intellectual property, Bitcoin's value is in it's replacement of other currencies as a store of value. Maybe I'm butchering the definition of "intrinsic" here - when I say that I mean that it's not backed by tangible property, cash flow, or intellectual property.

    Bitcoin will only increase in value if more and more people adopt it for everyday personal and/or commercial use. It in itself is of no value, is easily replaced by any other currency, crypto, fiat, or backed by gold. 

    Unlike gold, Bitcoin is not tangible.

    Unlike the dollar, a fiat currency, I am not legally required to accept Bitcoin as payment. I will not accept rent, payment for the sale of my property, my salary, or otherwise exchange any assets I own or services I may provide in exchange for Bitcoin. I might accept payment in Bitcoin if you pay me a solid premium over what I'd charge in dollars. I'd then immediately exchange my Bitcoin for dollars. 

    Bitcoin is similar to hundreds of other cryptocurrencies. Each crypto has it's nuances, it's slight differences. But, at the end of the day, there seems to me to be no particular reason to me that Bitcoin will be the one universally adopted in the end. Perhaps it has odds over, say, KodakCoin. But, why Bitcoin vs. Litecoin? Vs. Ethereum? Vs. XRP? In my opinion, saying Bitcoin will win out over Ethereum is in my opinion like saying Southwest will win out over United. In fact, the airline industry and cryptocurrencies have one thing in common - over a long period of time, neither seems likely to produce a dollar of profit. (see what I did there?)

    I'm not saying not to buy Bitcoin. I'm saying that I feel I have a thorough understanding of this asset, and because I feel I understand it, I do not invest in it. I'm saying that I feel that buying Bitcoin is like buying any other crytocurrency, fiat currency or other store of value. 

    Of course, I could be wrong in my personal view and miss a nice next ride. Of course, the US gov. might force me to accept Bitcoin as payment going forward. Of course, folks simply choose to adopt it around the world to an increasing degree, and it goes on to replace the dollar as the world reserve currency or equivalent. But, I think that's a bet, and that I'm not retiring on Bitcoin.  

    I want to say, I totally respect your opinions here. I understand that in spite of my logic, people own Bitcoin. That it has a huge market capitalization. That people really are using it to transact on real property around the world. I just don't think that it's an investment anymore than it is an investment to buy gold. Or betting on currency exchange rates. 

    But, maybe I'm still misinformed. I'd be happy to be schooled on it, and have you explain why you think that there is the potential for cash flow, or why the displacement of and continued adoption of Bitcoin at the expense of other cryptocurrencies is an inevitability. 



  • Investor · Nipomo, CA · Member since 2014 · 366 posts · 401 votes
    6y

    @Scott Trench Before getting into it I will mention that I've been a holder of various currencies since 2015, but do not consider myself an expert. I will do my best to explain as I see things, but welcome others with more knowledge to expand and/or point out inaccuracies. 

    "Bitcoin is similar to hundreds of other cryptocurrencies. Each crypto has it's nuances, it's slight differences. But, at the end of the day, there seems to me to be no particular reason to me that Bitcoin will be the one universally adopted in the end. Perhaps it has odds over, say, KodakCoin. But, why Bitcoin vs. Litecoin? Vs. Ethereum? Vs. XRP"

    I think this highlights why more research should be done before making strong opinions one way or the other. As you put it, Bitcoin's value is in its ability to replace other currencies (such as gold or fiat) as a store of value. With that being the case, why would people choose Bitcoin over the others? 

    Gold is the best comparison, as BTC is often called digital gold. It may not be tangible in the sense that you can hold physical BTC, but the code that surround BTC is irrefutable. I think both of these currencies are complimentary. One is physical, the other digital. As long as you hold your private keys, you will always be in control of your BTC. Just like if you lock you gold in a safe, you will always be in control of your gold. Give it to a 3rd party to store, and that is where BTC and Gold both become vulnerable. 

    Fiat government currency has shown that it is not a good store of value. The system is centralized to a max and is subject to inflation. BTC will never be inflated. It has a fixed supply that cannot be changed. Fiat currency is constantly being printed, causing it to lose value over time. 

    Ethereum is a different concept from Bitcoin. The goal of Ether and the Ethereum blockchain isn't really to be a store of value. It is attempting to be a platform for development of Digital Autonomous Corporations (DAOs) as well as as Smart Contracts. This is a different use case entirely than Bitcoin, so I do not really see the two as competitors. 

    Similarly, XRP was not created to be a store of value. It is currently being used by banks and financial institutions to help with cross border payments and to manage liquidity costs. If I remember correctly, the creators have mentioned that crypto investors should not be seculating with XRP, as the price of the token is intended to stay low. In addition, Ripple appears to fairly centralized compared to other cryptocurrencies. 

    LTC on the other hand has a lot of similarities with BTC, making it the most obvious competitor. The main reason Charlie Lee created LTC was to improve the scalability of BTC. There are some differences, such as processing speed, but the functionality is largely the same. 

    So why would someone choose BTC over LTC? 

    There is an important point that many BTC maximalists will pount to. There is no creator/owner that can be easily pointed to. BTC is a protocal created by an anonymous entity and is now entirely run by the people who make up the ecosystem. LTC, and all other currencies, have a central founder. Even if the coins themselves are entirely decentralized, they still have founders/leaders who can heavily influence the community. 

    I highly encourage you to listen to actual experts, as again, this explanation was just my best attempt. The two podcasts I'd recommend were done by The Investor's Podcast. This podcast is normally focused on stocks, but they did two back to back on Bitcoin. 

    The two I recommend are #259 with Dr Saifedean Ammous and #260 with Plan B. The main takeaway I received by listening to these two episodes was the concept of stock to flow, and why this is important when deciding upon a store of value. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    @Jack Medford Brilliant 

    @Scott Trench You see Ether and XRP have quite a few differences as Jack mentioned. Also, neither are limited. They are platforms, networks, to transact contracts and financial data. Lite is close, some call it digital silver. 

    Bitcoin has no creator, owner, controller, and it's limited. You are correct that trust is what makes a thing valuable, and trust seems to be growing. But also so does utility, the utility that it provides allow us to store, exchange, and move our money instantly. Without a bank, fax machines, paperwork, or having to explain to a branch manager why you need to withdrawal.  I'm not trying to convince you to trust it or buy and I get that you're fine missing a possible sweet ride, but I think before speaking about a thing one way or another, one should understand it better. Backing away completely is a different thing.

    Some of the most valuable companies in the world are based on intangible's - Google, Facebook. Just like my music collection. I can no longer touch it, but I can use it. 

     I think we are already off to a great start. 

    Adoption is growing, no one knows what's going to happen, or if we will be forced to use it in our lifetime - maybe we will or wont get to see you kicking and screaming. But adoption is growing. 

    I don't own gold either. The government is suppressing the price (look into futures contracts and suppression). They outlawed and confiscated it at one point, and at another time, IIRR, they taxed the he** out of it. Gold hit a 20 year high in 2011 (was up in 1980 and then fell). Now it's at another high since, with the turbulence in the stock market. I share the same thoughts as David Stein, that if we were at a point that we were trading slivers of gold, storing it in a vault in our houses, things would be really bad. Money wants a place to go. I don't think gold is going to disappear soon, but like all things change, it might. The financial system needs an overhaul and we are more and more dependent on the internet. If money managers put just 1% of their gold and metals allocations, it would flood the BTC and or crypto market with billions. SEC chair, Jay Clayton said some interesting things on CNBC recently about a BTC ETF. It sounds like it's getting closer, he commented that the industry is solving the concerns of the SEC. When people can invest their 401K in it, pensions invest in it, you see where this could go? You can pay tax with it in Ohio, and other states are considering, while NH has decided not to. Who would have thought, after all the criminalization, that pot would be legal in so many states and gaining?

    Anything can happen. And it's always been my belief that it will either go to $0 (or near $0) or it's going much, much higher. It may be just a matter of time 

    I don't own ETF's or Gold. Just RE and a handful of Crypto Currencies.

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    Also not to leave out Libra - which isn't decentralized or limited. And the government can and did shut it down. Libra is not a real crypto, it's a digital token backed by fiat, and owned by FB. I'm sure the government is scared of corporate money, I am also. FB has 2.8 billion users. Can you imagine what would happen if they incentivized people to trade their fiat for Libra? FB would own and control much of the worlds currency and that's dangerous. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    So you see gold isn't necessarily something people buy to get rich. They put, usually a smaller percentage of their total allocation, into metals but it's been a hedge against inflation. We might see the same with BTC. Time will tell. 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    Mass delusion of people who really like the internet and technology are what drives bitcoin. Currency is issued by nations, snd not mined on computers.  Ive made plenty of money trading crypto, but it can all disappear in a blink of an eye as soon as the government decides to get rid of it.

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    @Russell Brazil They mined gold, and to me, that's archaic. But I wouldn't call it delusion. 

    What's delusional to me is that Governments (US, Japan, Euro) are printing money into infinity and lowering rates in attempts to save the economy. The hyperinflation experienced in Germany, Zimbabwe, and Venezuela may not likely happen in the US, even some pundits say we are flirting with it, is what occurs when a government prints money, trillions of dollars. So the currency issued by nations has its faults and needs an overhaul. So do the central banks. You say money isn't mined on computers? Well, it kind of is, especially as adoption grows. 

    How do you propose the government will get rid of it and how will it disappear? Technically, legislatively, please explain. 

    The difference between us is I'm not saying they wont try. Maybe they will, maybe not. Anyone who claims to know whats going to happen is basically reduced to a "guesser", to me. Maybe you have 50/50 chance of being right, maybe more, maybe less. 

    A lot of things could happen. NASA could rope in an asteroid made of gold and plunge that market. They could outlaw gold again and confiscate it. They could ban large bills like they did in India. What if they gov turns off the internet? Or majorly sensors it like in China? 

    There were people who thought the internet was a fad and people who panic sold Amazon in the 90's.

    No one knows. What I do know is it is best not to become emotional, hate irrationally, and to speak form those standpoints. What I also know is that BTC has utility, is solves major issues, and adoption is growing. 

    I look at those metrics just like one might look at Google or Amazon or Samsung or Toyota. 

    Where, when, and how did you trade crypto? 

    I regards to your comment on "mass delusion", often times insanity is the rule, but I think we are 30 million people and counting, as well as Wall Streets entry. Let's see

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    🤣🤣🤣🤣 Sorry man, can't take paranoid delusional conspiracy theories seriously. But your post does really illustrate my point 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    @Russell Brazil

    Care to point out the conspiracy parts of my posts?  

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y

    @Eric Carr, sorry I'm late to this discussion.

    Thank you for listening to the show. I'm pleased it sparked debate. You're 100% correct in that I don't understand Bitcoin - and when I say Bitcoin, I use that term generically to include all cryptocurrency. But I said I don't understand it in the episode. David Stein's point that you should be able to explain what you're investing in before you invest in it is spot on. 

    My point in bringing it up at all - and expressing my dislike of it as an investment - is to hopefully persuade others who may be on the fence about it to at the very least do more research. And if you're not willing to do research, then don't put any money into that investment vehicle.

    My facebook feed was positively FILLED with people recommending Bitcoin and various other cryptocurrencies when it was blowing up last year. But the way they were hyping it made it clear that they didn't know much more than I did about it. It's easy to get sucked into hype. People were mortgaging their houses to buy Bitcoin. That's absurd.

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    @Mindy Jensen

    But doesn't it seem like one should also understand an investment before disliking and bad talking it? The money Podcast gives a lot of advice on money and investing. Why not bring that advice and education into BTC and Crypto? The decision to leave it out entirely is fine also. It seems like instead of hating something to dissuade people who don't understand it and keep them from buying, isn't what the show is about. Only in this case. Mortgaging a house to buy stocks, gold, anything other than more property (and not always in that case) is absurd. Unless one is prepared to lose it all. Same rules to investing in an ETF. Don't invest what you cant afford to. 

    I started this thread for anyone who was curious and wanted information, to get the data, have a serious conversation, with facts, to discuss facts, and point out why I think it is necessary. 

    I believe reasons to invest or not invest, should not be emotional - not hate. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    For instance, when Russel said above that nations issue currency, that it's not mined on computers (around the world), I know that he doesn't understand it. 

    Nations don't issue gold, ETF's, corporate bonds, real estate - including REIT's, yet we can invest in them. While there are retailers that accept BTC - as a currency, and as I mentioned at least one state accepts it for tax payments and others are considering it, you can pay bail with in in CA, it is an asset. Like gold and your Google ETF.

    No one knows what's going to happen, but support is growing 

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y

    OK, I know enough about it to choose not to invest in it. The hype it gets makes me uneasy because so many people are so easily persuaded, as evidenced by the mortgaging-your-house-to-buy-crypto thing. 

    While I absolutely agree that you should understand and explain anything you're GOING to invest in, I don't think the same is necessary in reverse. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    @Mindy Jensen

    I agree that it's not necessary to understand something you don't intend to invest in. So the reverse isn't true - we agree. But I think it's important to understand something before confidently bad mouthing or dissuading others from it. Education is everything. That's what got me thinking about this post, for anyone who wants to have a discussion. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed

    You're absolutely correct that it is volatile and for that reason alone it's not for everyone. I have a friend, pro poker player - he sits at the table with high stakes and STILL cant HODL Bitcoin. NO ONE knows what's going to happen. Same goes with everything. But unlike Facebooks Libra, which the government is scared of - and rightfully so, Bitcoin has no creator and no owner and it solves a ton of issues with the current processes of banking and money transfer. China tried to stop BTC and couldn't, now the Chinese Pres says he wants China to be leaders in the blockchain space (Blockchain is not Bitcoin but it is the ledger that was created with BTC) - the Chairman of the CTFT wants the US to be a leader in the crypto space. Wall Street is getting in with BAKKT (NYSE sister company) and Fidelity, TD Ameritrade, and Pensions are getting in slowly. Wall Street is buying it up is what the reports say, and likely Over the Table so it's not hitting the charts. Who knows for sure. I do know that Wall Street wants their fees and will do what they need to gobble it up and sell it back at a higher price. 

    I have a friend who works for Square, as you might know the CEO of Square and Twitter is a huge BTC bull. Square is making millions on transaction fees every quarter from BTC. Square is also buying BTC and are trying to buy ahead of the mining - buying BTC that hasn't been mined yet! Very bullish. Anything can happen, but I look at the fundamentals and they look great, even while volume is low at the moment and the price is drifting. It is volatile, but look at the charts over the last 10 years, we've been where we are now. Nothing new. Let's see what happens, but if you believe, might be time to buy some.  

    The news stations are marketing companies. There is free news on the internet so the big time pundits and news channels need to get attention, capture eyes - and at the same time emotions. Most of the news be it FOX or CNN or CNBC is all click bait. And when the CEO of a bank comes on to tell everyone things are great and the economy is as strong as ever, when it's clearly not, you know they are worried and don't want people to pull back spending, borrowing,  and investment. The SAME goes when they want you to be scared. Forget about the news, look at fundamentals - goes for any trading or RE investing.

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    5y

    I hope everyone has been paying attention lately! :)

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    5y

    Bitcoins market cap is now larger than Netflix, Disney, Nike, Home Depot, etc. And is now larger than ALL of the US banks.

    Big name investors and billionaire hedge fund operators such as Bill Miller, Stanley Druckenmiller, Ray Dalio, Raoul Pal, now hold and / or are recommending it part of everyone's portfolio. 

    Mexico's second richest person, billionaire, invested 10% of his liquid wealth.

    Blacrock CEO - "It has our attention", Blackrock CIO - "In many ways it is better than gold" Citibank and Chase analysts are projecting it will go much higher. Standard Charter Bank is getting into storage and transactions, PayPal is offering crypto purchases and are seeing higher than expected demand and are rushing to rollout the global offering. Half of Squares revenue is coming from BTC transaction fees - they also recently bought $50m worth. Guggenheim filed with the SEC to add $500m worth of Bitcoin to one its funds. Massmutual just invested $100m worth into Bitcoin and another $5m into NYDIG who is holding it for them. The CEO of Microstrategy converted $475m worth of corporate cash into Bitcoin, and is now raising another $400m to buy more. Recently they were up 65% on that purchase Michael Saylor looks like a god. Jim Cramer is buying or bought it, to leave in his will for his kids. French courts ruled Bitcoin equal to money. BBVA, spains 2nd largest bank is offering Bitcoin custody and transactions, starting in Switzerland. Wells Fargo is recommending Bitcoin and I expect they will custody soon. Kraken, a large crypto exchange, was given a banking charter license in Wyoming, where they are opening a physical branch, which will hold 100% deposits in cash reserves. The OCC (Federal office of the comptroller of currency) issued guidelines to banks on storing crypto and transacting. The OCC head also announced that the US will not ban Bitcoin. The DOW and S&P are adding crypto indexes in 2021. Bitwise launched an index just recently. A Bernstein analyst recently reversed his stance on Bitcoin, now sees it legitimate. You can buy pizza with it in Venezuela at Pizza Hut. Cynthia Lummins, and incoming senator, has stated that Bitcoin is going to be an important player for the future and she hopes to bring Bitcoin into the national conversation. A handful of other senators sent a letter to the treasury telling him to back off trying to ban private wallets. We are also seeing record outflows from gold and record inflows to Bitcoin funds. Raoul Pal sold ALL of his gold and bought Bitcoin. 

    NOTHING has performed as well as Bitcoin over the past 15 years. Bitcoin is eating everything and it is still just getting started. We are seeing, right now, PayPal, Square, Grayscale, and the like, buying Bitcoin by the billions of dollars and buying ALL of the daily mined supply. Where do you think this is going? This is the first time in history that we have seen an asset start in the hands of the people, which is why it was created, and is now being bought up, I mean all of it, by institutions. Why do you think? They see the value and want to OWN the supply. Hedge funds know banks can now custody. This is the green light to invest and custody themselves. Family offices are getting in and when we finally see and ETF, more RIA's will start recommending it. Endowments are already investing in Bitcoin and we will see more. More insurance companies will also follow. More banks will build systems to trade and custody - if they dont, they will be left behind. There is a fine line between conservative and stupid. No one wants to be left out, but even more so, no one wants to be wrong. Which is why all of this is happening. Pensions are definitely looking at it but they move much slower - it is only a matter of time for them also. Not to mention retail and Robbinhood traders. Bitcoin will eventually flip gold. And before that, more corporate treasurers will start adding it to their balance sheets - Google, Amazon, Tesla, Microsoft, Apple.

    I have held for YEARS, I have seen it declared dead, called a scam and a fraud - by bank CEO's whose analysts are now saying it will go higher. I have heard the arguments "well I cant buy coffee with it" and "the us will ban it" and "it got hacked" and all the other fear from people who obviously did not understand what they were saying nor the asset. 

    I have lived and held through the volatility, believing that we would get to the point of what we are seeing today. I have always said, it is just a matter of time. Now the genie is out of the bottle. 
     
     All of this is just what I can remember of the top of my head. As I have said, I have held through hard times, and it is a good thing ALL of these people and institutions that are behind it, in the billions, are a lot smarter than me.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    5y

    The SEC's ETF concerns are being addressed. The SEC is concerned with volatility, which is smoothing out with the billions coming in from steady hands and will smooth out further as the market cap grow's, custody - which has now been granted to banks, and manipulation - which not even the investment banks can pull off. At some point, the SEC will have to decide whether they feel the US is better with or without them, because people ARE buying it, institutions are offering it and adding it to funds, an index is already live and more are announced for 2021. And at some point the SEC will stand in the way from retirees and conservative investors, and others, from participating in the gains and wealth created by Bitcoin.

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    5y

    Correction - Michael Saylor, CEO of MicroStrategy, raised $650m, $250m more than the originally proposed $400m, all within a matter of 48 hours.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2018 · 86 posts · 33 votes
    5y

    @Russell Brazil chiming in. Bitcoin does far more than being a currency. This video will paint a picture for you of future use case for digital wallets and much more. If you want skip the bull case for some of that and just listen about what Bitcoin offers that is unique skip to around the 10min mark. (This is not my video, FYI) 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    5y

    @Jonathan Nixon

    @Russell Brazil

    To Jonathan's point - In China, 83 tons of fake gold, was used to back $2 Billion Yuan ($2.8B USD) in loans. 

    That could not have happened with Bitcoin as collateral. 

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Eric Carr:

    @Jonathan Nixon

    @Russell Brazil

    To Jonathan's point - In China, 83 tons of fake gold, was used to back $2 Billion Yuan ($2.8B USD) in loans. 

    That could not have happened with Bitcoin as collateral. 

    Perhaps the biggest news recently is MassMutual investing 600 mil into bitcoin. With that forbes says there is another 600 billion coming from insurance and other institutional types. This alone will put bitcoin into the six figures price range within fairly short order. The debate on whether it is a good investment is pretty much over especially when you have 150 year old insurance companies buying hundreds of millions. Not to mention it is has been the best performing asset class in the last 5 and 10 year windows. Consider crypto is 3 things programmable money, store of value and a capital asset and it is now possible to earn interest on the asset. When you understand what it does in those 3 things it is not hard to imagine the real world reasons to own it. Recent surveys claim 73% of millionaires either owned or wanted to own bitcoin. You know the old story, follow the money. Good luck! 

     

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    5y

    @Matt R.

    Massmutual bought $100m worth of BTC and invested another $5m into the company holding it for them (custody). Which is one major step. Along the way of these things, I see people try to down play - well it's just $100m, or so what it's a pizza hut in Venezuela, or so it's just one crypto bank in Wyoming. Right there, I know that while they might be good at something, it is not investing. Whether they are right or wrong, they gave an emotional answer, and I know they aren't a serious investor. 

    I have seen this over and over, over the years and each time, the stakes go much higher. However, this is the first time we have seen this amount of institutional money flowing in. At this point, one thought I would have is, is it worth arguing with the billionaires? 

    I had estimated before, that if 1% of pensions got in, we would see $500B flow into BTC. The Chase analyst gives a broader snapshot, however, I believe this is coming. Let's see how it plays out. 

    To put things into perspective of how dominant Bitcoin is, if you had invested $1,000 into each of these 10 years ago, here is what you would have today: 

    Google $6k

    Facebook $9k

    Amazon $22k

    Netflix $34k

    Tesla $159k

    Bitcoin $237 Million

    Like I said, I have seen nothing like it. Let's see what happens 

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Eric Carr:

    @Matt R.

    Massmutual bought $100m worth of BTC and invested another $5m into the company holding it for them (custody). Which is one major step. Along the way of these things, I see people try to down play - well it's just $100m, or so what it's a pizza hut in Venezuela, or so it's just one crypto bank in Wyoming. Right there, I know that while they might be good at something, it is not investing. Whether they are right or wrong, they gave an emotional answer, and I know they aren't a serious investor. 

    I have seen this over and over, over the years and each time, the stakes go much higher. However, this is the first time we have seen this amount of institutional money flowing in. At this point, one thought I would have is, is it worth arguing with the billionaires? 

    I had estimated before, that if 1% of pensions got in, we would see $500B flow into BTC. The Chase analyst gives a broader snapshot, however, I believe this is coming. Let's see how it plays out. 

    To put things into perspective of how dominant Bitcoin is, if you had invested $1,000 into each of these 10 years ago, here is what you would have today: 

    Google $6k

    Facebook $9k

    Amazon $22k

    Netflix $34k

    Tesla $159k

    Bitcoin $237 Million

    Like I said, I have seen nothing like it. Let's see what happens 

    Cool, there was another company who did the 600 mil, I got my companies mixed up. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 655 posts · 293 votes
    5y

    @Matt R.

    Microstrategy invested $475m of their own corporate cash and then raised another $650m - to buy Bitcoin

    There is so much money flowing in, it is hard to keep track. Let's hope it continues. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.