Debate of Subdivision Morals

Debate of Subdivision Morals

New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes

I'd like to talk about this topic with everybody because I feel its a legitimate problem. WIth a recession upon us we know the housing boom was part of it. Including the fact that some entire housing developments were made just for people who couldnt afford them.

Do you ever look at airial photography and plot viewers and think to yourself "man, that guy subdivides like a jack###"? Some maps tell house density, ranging from 1 to 4 or 5 dwellings per acre of land.

When will developers draw the line between putting people in danger and trying to make a profit? Now I know the idea is to get as many as you can, but when one house catches on fire and takes 2 more with it, there is a problem. It dont matter what the extent of the damage is, most of the time its bad, especially when houses are 20 - 30ft apart. This would be an example of roughly 3+/- houses per acre.

There was a development nearby years ago, i seen for myself. These houses that people were charged anywhere from 85,000 to 120,000 for sure did get the shaft IMO! When you look at all the prefab walls, not 1 2x4 was whole. Instead spliced and glued together in pieces no more than 18 inches long. Things like the storm sewers lacked proper bedding material for code that would wash out easy under asphalt. Oh yea, and the asphalt was ontop of dirt. No stone subgrade. So you get all these junk cracker boxes that aint worth what people are paying for then they default on their loans? No wonder the bailouts had to happen! I mean duh, come on!

I would not buy a house in these types of neighborhoods. The only way i would buy in a neighborhood like that is if i could get 5 houses together for no more than 50,000. Keep one house, demolish the house on both sides of me, and 2 behind me while im at it. Afterwords it would be questionable if i would go ahead and do the house i'd want to keep, infact i would if it was on a concrete slab, becasue you cant get to the utilities without digging inside of your house.(common sense went out the window again didnt it?). I wouldnt care about the hastle with permits and utility disconnects, it would bring me joy to go in and have 5 houses down and cleared out in less than 2 to 3 days.

So with all this said, we got these hands off landlords that try to make money by marking up what somebody else put there further inflating the price on the junk house, in the process of all this, a house may sit for years. Lets say it develops a gas leak because nobody checks on the property? The gas company has to come out a few times, luckly the house doesnt blow up and kill the neighbors or somebodies kids playing in the street..

I say they should make a federal mandate that you cant develop more than 1.5 to 1.75 an acre for starters. Houses with 40 to 50ft between them would be better, plus you would have value in extra land and would benefit the consumer. This would be a appealing for the sale.

If you are a developer to be reading this, I hope you take this into consideration. You dont have to loose the shirt off your back but you dont need be greedy either. You might miss out on some money in the short term but the good you pay forward will always come back to you. After all, isnt that what this forum is about? Sharing information helps alot of people unlock potential they didnt know they had once they learn to see through smoke and mirrors.

Good day to all.

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J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
13y

You seem to be confusing shoddy building practices with building density. Just because there is a high density of housing doesn't mean the builder cut corners or is putting anyone at risk.

By your arguments above, builders should never build townhouses, apartments, row houses, etc., because a fire in one unit can threaten other units. Does that make sense to you?

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  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:
    The Union Carpenters statement was just to reference my sources are qualified

    The avearge union carpenter has no idea what developing is all about. The also don't know how strong a jointed stud is compared to a non jointed stud in a vertical position. Just like an average mechanic is not qualified to tell Toyota execs how to run there company. That carpenter might be able cope the most beautiful joints you ever saw and still not be able to balance a check book. You know what they say, we all have opinions just like we all have em, err, you know.

    Forget trying to work as a developer. Go out and build just one single house for resale and then report back to us on where your values and your money should intersect.

  • Boston, MA · Member since 2012 · 52 posts · 9 votes
    13y

    After reading this discussion, there are two completely different views going on here. @Ryan Watson is speaking from a moral standpoint and everyone else is speaking from a business/developer standpoint, which everyone made their good points. But I'm going to have to agree with ryan because I think developers nowadays are looking at fast cash and paychecks rather than safety. Just look at these two pics and tell me that there is something wrong with this, not from a developer's view but from a moral view.

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    What is morally wrong with a cookie cutter subdivision? Have you ever been to New York City or a trailer park where people live on top of each other?

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by John A.:
    Just look at these two pics and tell me that there is something wrong with this, not from a developer's view but from a moral view.

    Clearly your morals are different than mine. I find nothing amoral about building houses on small lots. Not even remotely.

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    There is nothing immoral about either picture, they represent two different types of development. As someone that has been in this business for decades as an property buyer/seller, agent, contractor and developer, I can tell you that people in various stages of their lives seek different types of properties. Not everyone wants to live in the country. A lot of people love the idea of living in the middle of a bustling city, and being able to take mass transit, ride bikes or walk to where they want to go. Is that immoral? No.

    Others like to live in densely populated areas to help keep infrastructure costs down by not requiring local governments to extend services to outlying areas, and be good stewards of tax dollars, is that immoral?

    Some think that conserving land and limiting its use is good for society and environmentally sensitive, is that too immoral?

    Ryan Watson and John A. to use your broad brush to paint all developers as immoral because you happen to hold a different viewpoint is narrow minded.

    We have zoning and planning ordinances all throughout the country. People living in our communities have input as to how they want their area developed. America has some of the best planning, and highest quality of living standards in the world. You're living in the wrong country to be whining about substandard, immoral building practices. Sorry!

  • Civil Engineer · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 45 votes
    13y

    There can be a debate regarding the trends towards higher density buildings and if that is good or bad for society but I do not see anything immoral about it.

    I have lived abroad (Ecuador) and can second the idea that Karen Margrave brought up that the best building panning and practices are here in the US. It really expands your perspective on how the vast majority of people live in the world.

    I have a unit in a condo complex that the builder skimped on the insulation and now we (HOA board) are just finding out about it. It is beyond the statute of limitation and there is nothing we can really do but fix the issue for the community and move on. Come to find out that the builder actually went bankrupt a few years ago, surprise surprise. That would be an example of an ethical problem with a builder not that they build homes closer together than you would like personally. If the buildings are within code then there is no moral/ethical debate.

  • New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes
    13y

    I still yet to get an answer on what kind of stipulations go down between a developer and the local school districts needs? Alot of large neighborhoods have schools nestled in the middle of them.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:
    I still yet to get an answer on what kind of stipulations go down between a developer and the local school districts needs? Alot of large neighborhoods have schools nestled in the middle of them.

    First, I have no idea. Second, why does it matter? What is your concern?

  • Civil Engineer · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 45 votes
    13y

    I am confused as well. Are you suggesting that the developer causes the overcrowded and underfunding of schools by increasing population density?

  • New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes
    13y

    developers in these parts have to help pay to build new schools for everything they develop. apparently they dont do it in either of your two states. i'm trying to give you guys the benifit of the doubt to justify your ridiculous building practices you call "density".

  • New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Brian Hoyt:
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:
    The Union Carpenters statement was just to reference my sources are qualified

    The avearge union carpenter has no idea what developing is all about. The also don't know how strong a jointed stud is compared to a non jointed stud in a vertical position. Just like an average mechanic is not qualified to tell Toyota execs how to run there company. That carpenter might be able cope the most beautiful joints you ever saw and still not be able to balance a check book. You know what they say, we all have opinions just like we all have em, err, you know.

    Forget trying to work as a developer. Go out and build just one single house for resale and then report back to us on where your values and your money should intersect.

    In your example, an average mechanic is alot more qualified to speak about how executives do things more than you think. after all, when their crap shows it doesnt work out in real life like it did on paper they are the ones fixing it.

    executives and management are all on their own planet. out of touch with reality. things would run more smoothly if the field monkey had some say in the upper end of things because they know from experience, not from sitting in a fancy office park reading market data.

    Just like the carpenters or any other building tradesman. If you had the slightest clue how bad they make fun of white collar boys that roll up on the job in their BMW's you would feel about an inch tall. A field workers version of common sense and an investors/developers version of common sense isnt even on the same planet. When a developers mad at the contractor on performance, and they've had ****** weather and cant reach compaction with mud, it goes to show just how out of touch with reality most people are. P.S. I dont want to be a developer, especially if I have to do things like everybody else. I'm going to reinvent the wheel.

    Karen Margrave The hostess example is an easy one. You cant keep giving outragous raises to people that make products that still cost 99 cents. especially in a time period when healthy food and exercise lablel the twinky as "Taboo". Skilled trades on the other hand deserve every penny they make, in all honesty its not even fair to compare a construction trade union to a food related union. One works alot harder than the other, including risking their life to make the project happen, and make roads fool proof for idiot drivers that couldnt pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the heal. They just pass that cost on in the next project bid.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:
    developers in these parts have to help pay to build new schools for everything they develop. apparently they dont do it in either of your two states. i'm trying to give you guys the benifit of the doubt to justify your ridiculous building practices you call "density".

    I don't understand what paying (or not paying) for schools has to do with building density?

    Each of your responses is getting more and more confusing...it's not clear you even know what you're upset about...

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Ryan Watson I didn't mention Hostess.. that was YOU. I'm sorry but have you ever heard the saying, I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man? Go educate yourself on development, and then come back when you have an understanding of what it involves. This thread is unproductive.

  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 431 posts · 106 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:
    Originally posted by Brian Hoyt:
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:

    Just like the carpenters or any other building tradesman. If you had the slightest clue how bad they make fun of white collar boys that roll up on the job in their BMW's you would feel about an inch tall. A field workers version of common sense and an investors/developers version of common sense isnt even on the same planet. When a developers mad at the contractor on performance, and they've had ****** weather and cant reach compaction with mud, it goes to show just how out of touch with reality most people are. P.S. I dont want to be a developer, especially if I have to do things like everybody else. I'm going to reinvent the wheel.

    This has really turned into a strange "debate." How did it change from a density issue to blue collar vs white collar?

  • New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes
    13y

    Its like talking to a wall. This thread would stay on topic if people didnt try to twist things around in order to discredit the point. Sorry Karen i got you mixed up with what Chad said.

    Originally posted by Chad Ballard:

    Care to comment on the recent Hostess example? I believe there is a place for voluntary unions in the private sector and no need for public unions but the tide has swung heavily in their favor.

    Even though I plan to stick around and learn about the real estate business i dont need to know alot to know builders are offering people a bunch of ******** for housing. All these negative reactions can only point to a guilty conscience as far as im concerned. The truth hurts and is never well received.

    The schools thing was an honest question aside from getting a dig at developers practices. Around here ive always been told for what a developer takes up they have to donate to build a new school. After 4 large neighborhoods came up they built a new school in the immediate area. I dont see whats so hard to understand about that? In no way am i trying to complain about my local area, the things I say are examples to try to get the point across.

    The white collar blue collar subject got spun off from this post.

    Originally posted by Brian Hoyt:
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:
    The Union Carpenters statement was just to reference my sources are qualified

    The avearge union carpenter has no idea what developing is all about. The also don't know how strong a jointed stud is compared to a non jointed stud in a vertical position. Just like an average mechanic is not qualified to tell Toyota execs how to run there company. That carpenter might be able cope the most beautiful joints you ever saw and still not be able to balance a check book. You know what they say, we all have opinions just like we all have em, err, you know.

    Forget trying to work as a developer. Go out and build just one single house for resale and then report back to us on where your values and your money should intersect.

    My point being from my previous post, the guy in the lowest position on the totem pole ususally has the most clean cut and simple answers and is more in touch with reality than somebody who only runs the buisness end of things reguardless if they can write their own name or not. What looks good on paper isnt necessarily good for real life.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:

    My point being from my previous post, the guy in the lowest position on the totem pole ususally has the most clean cut and simple answers and is more in touch with reality than somebody who only runs the buisness end of things reguardless if they can write their own name or not. What looks good on paper isnt necessarily good for real life.

    Yes, I've always suspected that Warren Buffett was an idiot and it was really the guy in the mail-room who was making all the smart decisions at Berkshire...

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    J Scott Thank you for the laugh!

    Ryan Watson I've been in this business for close to 30 years. We are licensed general contractors, developers, licensed brokers and investors. The best advice I can give you is to know what you don't know. Then, when you come onto a site that is packed full of people that do know; and have the experience that you lack, you can pick their brains and learn.

    You make so many assumptions about every contractor, developer, etc. and put all of us in a little tiny box, and have preconceived ideas about how greedy all of us are, and how we have no clue as to what really happens on a construction job. I will guarantee you I have been on more construction jobs, and have more first hand experience than you could possibly have on actual jobs. My husband, son and sons in law have been in the trenches, on heavy equipment, hammered nails, and done whatever needed to be done to get a job done if they needed to in order to pick up time, or save money. Our construction workers love working on our jobs.

    I'm not offended or guilty Ryan. I'm someone that even with all the experience I have had, still know that when there's something I don't know or haven't dealt with in a while, I can come on BP, and guaranteed, I will find someone that can educate me, give me the answer I'm looking for or tell me where to find it. It's great. Try it.

    Now, don't give up on BP, or take things to heart. Everyone on here has just been trying to get you to open up your mind and try to see things from another perspective.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Karen Margrave:

    You make so many assumptions about every contractor, developer, etc. and put all of us in a little tiny box, and have preconceived ideas about how greedy all of us are, and how we have no clue as to what really happens on a construction job.

    In back to back sentences, Ryan admits that he's new to real estate and then claims to know how all developers are and think. In other words, despite his admitted lack of knowledge, he thinks he's an expert.

    My guess is that he probably does this with lots of other subjects as well...the proverbial "know it all"... :)

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan WatsonIf you had the slightest clue how bad they make fun of white collar boys that roll up on the job in their BMW's you would feel about an inch tall.[/quote:

    That statment in and of itself is pretty funny. I can't remember the last time someone who had a lower station than me in life made me feel small with their opinion of me....Remember that next time you and your buddies are teasing on the Beemer guy. While your laughing at him, he doesn't give a crap as he drives home to his nice house, hot wife, kids, etc. He doesn't laugh at you because you are not even on his mind.

    It is laughable that someone would argue that increasing urban sprawl is more responsible than building more densely - at least from an ecological position. Add to that, most issues with fires tend to occur with those houses surround by forests, spread far apart making access to property more ownerous on fire departments.

    Personally, I don't like new developments that I can afford to live in because they are too cramped, but mostly because they are just plain uninteresting. Over time, the trees will grow and they will get more character. I live in a 1954 house on a third acre in the middle of the city. That's where I choose to live. Does that make new developments evil? Nope. They are what they are - that's all. Most people I know think it would be a great idea to do all these things to my house to imulate what newer develpment type houses have. I just laugh to myself and understand that they just have different tastes and priorities.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Watson:

    My point being from my previous post, the guy in the lowest position on the totem pole ususally has the most clean cut and simple answers and is more in touch with reality than somebody who only runs the buisness end of things reguardless if they can write their own name or not. What looks good on paper isnt necessarily good for real life.

    This will be offensive but true: The lowest guy on the totem pole is usually a dumbass. Thank god he is not making the big picture decisions. I have worked my way up from a guy who got paid minimum wage as a roofer's helper, then a customer service agent for credit cards, then a carpet cleaner, then a cable guy, then an electricians helper then finally went to school and now work as an engineer. There are other low totem pole jobs I have had in addition to those listed. I was alway good at all my jobs.

    Just because I could tell you what a good carpet looked like or a good electical fitting looked like doesn't mean you should have listened to me tell you how to grade an entire subdivision for drainage. I also probably wouldn't be much help with permits or street pavement and signage design or utilitiy infrastructure design.

    Let's test your knowlege: Why are all the newer subdivisions built with curve linear streets rather than on grids? I bet you don't know without looking it up. We'll have no way to verify if you cheated, but you're an honest guy right?

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y

    Ryan Watson,

    Here is another funny one:

    "When a developers mad at the contractor on performance, and they've had ****ty weather and cant reach compaction with mud, it goes to show just how out of touch with reality most people are."

    As it turns out, I'm a geotechnical engineer and we have more dirt workers and concrete contractors calling us up with hair brain schemes and suggestions so THEY can save money and get more margin on THEIR work that they bid lump sum to the "stupid" developer. More problems arise from poor construction performance than from poor design or poor ownership by FAR. That means that it is the CONTRACTOR that is screwing up - not the designers or the owners MOST OF THE TIME. The whole reason why testing labs exist to check compaction is because your beloved blue collar worker is NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

    I know all about it and your opinions are simply skewed due to your position in the project. You need to grow up and let your mind grow out. You are just displaying the typical arrogance that accompanies ignorance. Yes, you know some things. But you don't know it all and you are trying to make very complex processes into black and white statements. The problem is, you are only capable of seeing things in black and white. The reality is, there is no black and white.

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