Seeking advice on best maximizing my rental properties

Seeking advice on best maximizing my rental properties

Real Estate Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 24 votes

Maybe I need to just hire a financial planner but thought I should come here first.  Trying to figure out the best way to maximize my equity in my investment properties.  Some of them are getting on the older side but have good equity but I just seem to be making bigger repairs on some of them which wipes out the profit for the whole year. So I will list what I have and just seeking some advice because I fell I could be doing more.  All my properties are out of state so im paying property managers 8%. Thinking of selling a couple and investing profits in stock market or just putting in high yield savings at 4.5% or potentially buying new properties with less maintenance.  Cash our refi a potential option?  Dont know much about that.  Also Im 49 years old so not into huge risk anymore but dont mind a little.  Any thoughts? or do I just hire someone to help.   thanks

1. Duplex Paid off( Washington state) Paid off- roughly worth 500k. 38,4000 in yearly rents

2. Duplex Paid off(Washington state)- roughly worth 530,000k  40,800 in yearly rents

3  Triplex Paid off (Washington state) roughly worth 500k 43,2000 in yearly rents

4 Triplex Paid off (Washington state) roughly worth 500k 42,000 in yearly rents

5 4 plex paid off (Arkansas) roughly worth 330000 31,200 in yearly rents

6 single family paid off( Arkansas) roughly worth 200k  19,2000 in yearly rents

7 Duplex (Washington) owe 60,000  worth 450,000 mortgage (900 dollars per month)  (taxes insurance included) 38,400 in rents

8 Duplex (Washington) owe 80,000 worth 450,000  mortage (900 dollars per month tax insurance inclueded) 39,000 rents yearls

9 Duplex(Idaho) owe 80,000 worth 430,000 mortgage (900 dollars per month tax insurance included) rents  36,000 rents yearly

10 Single family(Nevada) 0we 280,000 worth 700,000k mortgage ( 2000k per month tax insurance included)  rents 37,000 rents yearly

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Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
1y

@Ian Russell first of all, kudo's on getting to where you are, you've done very well and that deserves some pat's on the back, celebrate the win's. 

I hear you speaking to questions of the business fundamentals at this "sport", the one's often NOT written of or spoken of. Reason being, most content out there is to draw in "rainbow chasers" and the upstarts. There is a lacking for the nut's & bolt's intermediate. 

As much as getting to free & clear and holding forever sounds great and has a natural feeling of being "the" thing to get to. In Business it's neglectful. 

As your starting to experience, as @Nathan Gesnerpointed out, your bottom line is eroding. 

Let's reframe this and imagine instead of rental real estate you had rental cars. 

It readily jumps out that right away when you get a new car into the fleet, it's a great performer even though the net from it is a bit tighter because of covering that acquisition cost. 

It rents for more because of that new car smell. No maintenance to be had as, everything is new. 

Than a bit into the ownership, that bottom line starts growing and growing. It's this middle timeline that it really starts putting a smile on the face and earns that moniker "cash cow". It's not that old, so it handles the miles well. Sure there's been oil changes and tires, but these expenses were not that big an impact and it's still got "that look" and it books fast and stays booked up. 

Now, a little more time passes and all of a sudden that smile is upside down and turned into sentiment of every time that auto is mentioned "great, what now....".  

It's easy to get a feeling what was great has become possessed. It's really just the natural arch of time, the miles are taking there toll. They style is now a bit out of date, it's more and more often begrudgingly rented as a later option by people who truly wanted something else but, ok, fine, that's all there is, ok, I guess...... 

The maintenance seems to be a steady flow, and every time it's gritting teeth hoping and praying it's not another major item of significant cost. 

And if keep in this downward cycle, it become a chase of trying to recoup the expense outlay conveyor. And it's a loosing battle but one get's so far into it chasing "it's gotta be done now, I think, I hope, maybe". 

Real Estate is no different. 

Everything wears out. Everything has a use span. And if stay into any 1 property long enough, no, it's never really "paid-off" because after say 20-odd years your most likely to have to replace EVERYTHING to such an extent that it's an expense roughly matching a complete property purchase itself. 

There is a "sweet-spot" of performance that is on average yr 3-7. On average about 5yrs of happy-days. 

Now Commercial Residential (apartments etc) is a bit different. Yes, this cycle still happens but it's factored in, at least everyone who know's what there doing factors it in and there is a program for rolling renovations every 4'ish yrs on average. With major renovations every 7'ish. Rejuvenating them to be like-new, with the current trends, etc.. 

Now too the money. 

Your doing yourself a great disservice keeping so much $ locked up in equity. 

First of all, your ability to earn off those $'s locked into equity is much more limited, and thus the returns it could be earning, lost. 

Second, and so many miss this and it's confuses me, by having expanded net cashflow your also making your tax impact and loss of gross revenues too taxation way WAY bigger than it need be. 

A free & clear property = maximizing how much flesh the tax-butcher takes. 

And it's a choice, so why choose to donate maximum $ from your pocket to really the worst steward of capitol deployment since..... well since EVER. 

Mortgages are your FRIEND. They (a) put the $ in your pocket and (b) limit how much that tax-butcher is taking from the same pocket. 

Now INTEREST RATE, because i already feel the questions and arguments of "but, but, but the interest rate is ____". 

So here is the TRUTH about lent money: If you borrow me $100 today, and I pay you back that $100 in 10 years, did I give you back $100 ????? NO. 

Confused? It's ok, that's understandable, the US education system is designed to make good little consumers, not wise informed investors. 

INFLATION. 

Inflation is a function that is omnipresent in US economy and really nearly all. Meaning, it will ALWAYS be. 

And via inflation, say today that $100 buys a person 3 full tanks of gas. But in 10 years, it buys only 1.5 tanks of gas.     So, is that the SAME $100? 

NOPE. 

So in truth, when a borrow say $100k of money today, to acquire an appreciating asset that we can operate for an appreciating use value, the true and accurate math is that the purchasing power of that $100k we got full use of today, and can pay it off over time, DEMINISHES in it's purchase power over time THUS making it less $ we are paying back over time once inflation adjusted. 

And when you understand this, we can understand even an 8% interest rate isn't really the full money plus 8%. 

And going a step deeper, it's not you the investor who pay's this 8%, it's the tenants isn't it. 

So the only factor that truly matters is does the revenue it will produce cover the expenses to an extent where it's a net profitable venture? 

Ok, to wrap it all up. 

Most LT professional Landlords keep there leverage point via leveraged/lent funds to a range of 45-65% LTV. As the equity builds and that start hitting on or near 50% is when most start thinking refi, or SELL too 1031 to deploy into other, newer assets resetting that cap-x timeclock too 0.

And smart investors think "facelift" every 4'ish years and renovations/updates every 7'ish.

For your situation I would be discussing Pyramiding, and Consolidation. We would be discussing which is the better fit for yourself, your lifestyle, life goals etc.. Each has it's merits, each has it's thorns. 

From there would come the discussion of which financing (OPM) is a best fit for that next chapter of things. 

Unless these properties have some special factors such as waterfront etc., I would not get attached to then with thought of "forever home". 

Forever Homes are for owner occupants, not for business.  

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Midwest · Member since 2019 · 333 posts · 225 votes
    1y

    @Ian Russell

    1. Not a bad problem to have.

    2. What is your goal? If the properties are taking care of themselves, and providing you a return ie. income, tax deductions against W-2 income then consider what happens when / if you sell.

    3. Have you looked at multifamily larger than 4 units? Consider selling some of the older properties to do a 1031 exchange to buy larger properties. Ensure you learn how to evaluate and value the multifamily properties properly before jumping in, it's definitely worth the leap if you want to grow your portfolio.

    4. Re-finance some of the paid off properties, then use the refinance money to buy more properties. 

    Hope this helps.

    • Real Estate Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 24 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Carl Millsap:

      @Ian Russell

      1. Not a bad problem to have.

      2. What is your goal? If the properties are taking care of themselves, and providing you a return ie. income, tax deductions against W-2 income then consider what happens when / if you sell.

      3. Have you looked at multifamily larger than 4 units? Consider selling some of the older properties to do a 1031 exchange to buy larger properties. Ensure you learn how to evaluate and value the multifamily properties properly before jumping in, it's definitely worth the leap if you want to grow your portfolio.

      4. Re-finance some of the paid off properties, then use the refinance money to buy more properties. 

      Hope this helps.


       Carl

      Thanks for the reply in referrencing to refinancing some of the paid off properties what would you suggest.  Lets say 4 of them are paid off and have about 500k equity in each one.  How much would you refinance and take out of each one?   You would then purchase more properties?   Thanks again

  • Real Estate Broker · Fayetteville, AR · Member since 2017 · 375 posts · 240 votes
    1y

    You could: 
    1. Pull a line of credit over all the properties and invest that in the stock market or other investment properties. (I do this and flip more properties.)
    2. Sell off half and pay off the other half or so which is probably give you more cashflow now, but less appreciation over time. 
    3. Sell all and reinvest into some new constructions in your area that you can manage. This eliminates the PM, and hopefully a lot of the cap ex, but you will shrink your cash flow and appreciation potential. 
    4. Pull a line of credit or sell some and invest with a partner like a JV or Syndication.

    What I am hearing is you are done with the growth stage of your real estate journey. What risk would you be willing to take, and what do you want the next 10 years to look like for you? 

    • Real Estate Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 24 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ryan Blackstone:

      You could: 
      1. Pull a line of credit over all the properties and invest that in the stock market or other investment properties. (I do this and flip more properties.)
      2. Sell off half and pay off the other half or so which is probably give you more cashflow now, but less appreciation over time. 
      3. Sell all and reinvest into some new constructions in your area that you can manage. This eliminates the PM, and hopefully a lot of the cap ex, but you will shrink your cash flow and appreciation potential. 
      4. Pull a line of credit or sell some and invest with a partner like a JV or Syndication.

      What I am hearing is you are done with the growth stage of your real estate journey. What risk would you be willing to take, and what do you want the next 10 years to look like for you? 


       Ryan appreciate the feedback-  I'm definitely leaning towards selling a couple of them especially the olders ones.  I do like the idea of potentially pulling a line of credit and reinvesting.   What is a jv or syndication?  thanks again 

    • Real Estate Broker · Fayetteville, AR · Member since 2017 · 375 posts · 240 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ian Russell:
      Quote from @Ryan Blackstone:

      You could: 
      1. Pull a line of credit over all the properties and invest that in the stock market or other investment properties. (I do this and flip more properties.)
      2. Sell off half and pay off the other half or so which is probably give you more cashflow now, but less appreciation over time. 
      3. Sell all and reinvest into some new constructions in your area that you can manage. This eliminates the PM, and hopefully a lot of the cap ex, but you will shrink your cash flow and appreciation potential. 
      4. Pull a line of credit or sell some and invest with a partner like a JV or Syndication.

      What I am hearing is you are done with the growth stage of your real estate journey. What risk would you be willing to take, and what do you want the next 10 years to look like for you? 


       Ryan appreciate the feedback-  I'm definitely leaning towards selling a couple of them especially the olders ones.  I do like the idea of potentially pulling a line of credit and reinvesting.   What is a jv or syndication?  thanks again 


      JV stands for Joint Venture. It is when you partner with someone. I have done it in storage where someone else was the guy who did all the work and I was just the money guy. You are giving up your control though. Syndication is similar but you are kind of investing into a company that owns the real estate.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    1y

    Diminishing Return on Equity (ROE) Over Time in Real Estate Investment

    Output image

    The graph above shows how the Return on Equity (ROE) diminishes over time for a real estate investment. As property values increase (through appreciation) and the equity grows, the ROE declines unless cash flow increases proportionally. This illustrates the common problem of holding too much equity in real estate without actively leveraging or reinvesting it. Investors should regularly evaluate ROE and consider moving funds to a new investment when their return diminishes below 8%, which typically occurs by year 7.

    You also mention that your properties require a lot of maintenance. I would consider selling off your older, lowest-performing properties and investing in something nice and new. You could sell a $500,000 property and use the funds to purchase two properties worth $750,000 with $250,000 down on each.

    If you have the time and energy, consider diversifying into self-storage, multi-family, stocks, or other investments. I bought a self-storage facility that produces more cashflow than ten single-family homes for 1/5th the price. You have enough equity that you could purchase a large storage facility with employees and produce a much better return for decades to come without the headaches you experience with tenants and toilets.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
    • Real Estate Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 24 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

      Diminishing Return on Equity (ROE) Over Time in Real Estate Investment

      Output image

      The graph above shows how the Return on Equity (ROE) diminishes over time for a real estate investment. As property values increase (through appreciation) and the equity grows, the ROE declines unless cash flow increases proportionally. This illustrates the common problem of holding too much equity in real estate without actively leveraging or reinvesting it. Investors should regularly evaluate ROE and consider moving funds to a new investment when their return diminishes below 8%, which typically occurs by year 7.

      You also mention that your properties require a lot of maintenance. I would consider selling off your older, lowest-performing properties and investing in something nice and new. You could sell a $500,000 property and use the funds to purchase two properties worth $750,000 with $250,000 down on each.

      If you have the time and energy, consider diversifying into self-storage, multi-family, stocks, or other investments. I bought a self-storage facility that produces more cashflow than ten single-family homes for 1/5th the price. You have enough equity that you could purchase a large storage facility with employees and produce a much better return for decades to come without the headaches you experience with tenants and toilets.


       Great feedback- Iv'e always liked the self storage idea I will look into that.  I think selling a few and investing in some newer units is something I need to look into for sure.  Thanks again

  • Jaron WallingPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    Those $900 per month mortgage payments are wild. Talk about the good ole' days. 

    Assuming the OP is retired they have so many options. Just depends on their goals, tax strategy (1031 vs. paying Uncle Sam), and if family will inherit some properties. 

  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    @Ian Russell If you want to consolidate and sell a few of those properties that need repairs soon, you can do what we call a consolidation exchange.

    A consolidation exchange is where you sell multiple investment properties to acquire a larger investment property, or investment properties with less capital expense risk. this can be any type of real estate as long as it is held for investment use.

    A 1031 exchange would allow you to defer all of the tax and depreciation recapture and let you use that tax for your benefit to maximize return and minimize the stresses of managing a large RE portfolio.

    Stocks are fine. But they won't let you defer the tax. So, in addition to probably getting a lower return from the stock market, you'll first have to pay all of the capital gains tax and depreciation recapture. That would put a large dent in your net operating capital. It's usually better to keep real estate and equities separate for this reason.

    The 1031 Investor5134 Reviews
  • Real Estate Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 24 votes
    1y

    Got it thanks

  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    What is your goal? Cashflow for retirement? Do you like RE and want to stay in it? Wealth growth or preservation? A cash out refi isn't going to solve your maintenance problem - seems like this would result in less cashflow and having the same amount of maintenance. Could do a cash-out refi, live off that for a few years, then do another, live off that for a few years and repeat to minimize your taxes. It's a strategy, but it still keeps you in all the houses. 

    When you start getting several mm (like you have), I think it may be a good time to look into commercial investments - they can be a lot more hands off and still see great returns. Less maintenance for the landlord, longer leases etc. This should allow you to still do a 1031 exchange. This would be my first choice - good returns and would allow you to minimize your tax liability.

    I'm personally getting into self-storage/parking - it is a business, not a passive investment, so there's a lot more to it than meets the eye - but I think you have less maintenance long term, easier "tenants" to deal with. Potential to expand and sell. BUT you have to get the location - location cannot be preached enough. 

    I'm assuming you max out 401k, IRA/Backdoor Roth IRA (consider starting one for your kids), HSA, 529 all that kind of stuff. I don't think you can go wrong with the stock market either - lots of opportunity there, long history, average 8-10% returns - then put a portion in a less volatile stock for actual retirement money like SCHD or something. Just fewer tax benefits.

  • Sean SmithBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Seattle, WA · Member since 2020 · 161 posts · 105 votes
    1y

    @Ian Russell it sounds like you're looking to reduce your exposure to maintenance costs, however want to keep the money invested to some degree.

    Previous replies in this thread are great considerations (consolidation exchanges, reinvesting into other RE assets like self storage, entering the new development game, etc.).

    My two cents: I'd want to maintain diversification across those markets as long as having a distributed portfolio with multiple PMs isn't too much of a headache -- I wouldn't be cashing out all of AK, or all of WA for instance. From there, I'd consider selling off your largest maintenance-concern property or two via a 1031 exchange into newer-builds. Many builders today are offering low interest rate incentives to move inventory quickly. This is an interesting window of time to reinvest into lower maintenance costs and lock in a low rate.

    There's a great study put out by Harvard about the aging rental stock https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/reports/fil... -- the US is at all time-highs for median property age with a glut of housing that is falling behind code, accessibility, and renter needs. I'm working with a handful of investors to trade into newer buildings with a belief that the lower maintenance costs and the higher desirability will yield better returns in the long run.

    I also have a colleague who holds a position in a hard money fund getting a consistent 8% return. Could be an interesting option for you to get higher returns than a HYSA, just no equity build up and it's taxed less-than-favorably.

    Fellow Real Estate Services537 Reviews
  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y

    @Ian Russell first of all, kudo's on getting to where you are, you've done very well and that deserves some pat's on the back, celebrate the win's. 

    I hear you speaking to questions of the business fundamentals at this "sport", the one's often NOT written of or spoken of. Reason being, most content out there is to draw in "rainbow chasers" and the upstarts. There is a lacking for the nut's & bolt's intermediate. 

    As much as getting to free & clear and holding forever sounds great and has a natural feeling of being "the" thing to get to. In Business it's neglectful. 

    As your starting to experience, as @Nathan Gesnerpointed out, your bottom line is eroding. 

    Let's reframe this and imagine instead of rental real estate you had rental cars. 

    It readily jumps out that right away when you get a new car into the fleet, it's a great performer even though the net from it is a bit tighter because of covering that acquisition cost. 

    It rents for more because of that new car smell. No maintenance to be had as, everything is new. 

    Than a bit into the ownership, that bottom line starts growing and growing. It's this middle timeline that it really starts putting a smile on the face and earns that moniker "cash cow". It's not that old, so it handles the miles well. Sure there's been oil changes and tires, but these expenses were not that big an impact and it's still got "that look" and it books fast and stays booked up. 

    Now, a little more time passes and all of a sudden that smile is upside down and turned into sentiment of every time that auto is mentioned "great, what now....".  

    It's easy to get a feeling what was great has become possessed. It's really just the natural arch of time, the miles are taking there toll. They style is now a bit out of date, it's more and more often begrudgingly rented as a later option by people who truly wanted something else but, ok, fine, that's all there is, ok, I guess...... 

    The maintenance seems to be a steady flow, and every time it's gritting teeth hoping and praying it's not another major item of significant cost. 

    And if keep in this downward cycle, it become a chase of trying to recoup the expense outlay conveyor. And it's a loosing battle but one get's so far into it chasing "it's gotta be done now, I think, I hope, maybe". 

    Real Estate is no different. 

    Everything wears out. Everything has a use span. And if stay into any 1 property long enough, no, it's never really "paid-off" because after say 20-odd years your most likely to have to replace EVERYTHING to such an extent that it's an expense roughly matching a complete property purchase itself. 

    There is a "sweet-spot" of performance that is on average yr 3-7. On average about 5yrs of happy-days. 

    Now Commercial Residential (apartments etc) is a bit different. Yes, this cycle still happens but it's factored in, at least everyone who know's what there doing factors it in and there is a program for rolling renovations every 4'ish yrs on average. With major renovations every 7'ish. Rejuvenating them to be like-new, with the current trends, etc.. 

    Now too the money. 

    Your doing yourself a great disservice keeping so much $ locked up in equity. 

    First of all, your ability to earn off those $'s locked into equity is much more limited, and thus the returns it could be earning, lost. 

    Second, and so many miss this and it's confuses me, by having expanded net cashflow your also making your tax impact and loss of gross revenues too taxation way WAY bigger than it need be. 

    A free & clear property = maximizing how much flesh the tax-butcher takes. 

    And it's a choice, so why choose to donate maximum $ from your pocket to really the worst steward of capitol deployment since..... well since EVER. 

    Mortgages are your FRIEND. They (a) put the $ in your pocket and (b) limit how much that tax-butcher is taking from the same pocket. 

    Now INTEREST RATE, because i already feel the questions and arguments of "but, but, but the interest rate is ____". 

    So here is the TRUTH about lent money: If you borrow me $100 today, and I pay you back that $100 in 10 years, did I give you back $100 ????? NO. 

    Confused? It's ok, that's understandable, the US education system is designed to make good little consumers, not wise informed investors. 

    INFLATION. 

    Inflation is a function that is omnipresent in US economy and really nearly all. Meaning, it will ALWAYS be. 

    And via inflation, say today that $100 buys a person 3 full tanks of gas. But in 10 years, it buys only 1.5 tanks of gas.     So, is that the SAME $100? 

    NOPE. 

    So in truth, when a borrow say $100k of money today, to acquire an appreciating asset that we can operate for an appreciating use value, the true and accurate math is that the purchasing power of that $100k we got full use of today, and can pay it off over time, DEMINISHES in it's purchase power over time THUS making it less $ we are paying back over time once inflation adjusted. 

    And when you understand this, we can understand even an 8% interest rate isn't really the full money plus 8%. 

    And going a step deeper, it's not you the investor who pay's this 8%, it's the tenants isn't it. 

    So the only factor that truly matters is does the revenue it will produce cover the expenses to an extent where it's a net profitable venture? 

    Ok, to wrap it all up. 

    Most LT professional Landlords keep there leverage point via leveraged/lent funds to a range of 45-65% LTV. As the equity builds and that start hitting on or near 50% is when most start thinking refi, or SELL too 1031 to deploy into other, newer assets resetting that cap-x timeclock too 0.

    And smart investors think "facelift" every 4'ish years and renovations/updates every 7'ish.

    For your situation I would be discussing Pyramiding, and Consolidation. We would be discussing which is the better fit for yourself, your lifestyle, life goals etc.. Each has it's merits, each has it's thorns. 

    From there would come the discussion of which financing (OPM) is a best fit for that next chapter of things. 

    Unless these properties have some special factors such as waterfront etc., I would not get attached to then with thought of "forever home". 

    Forever Homes are for owner occupants, not for business.  

    • Real Estate Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 24 votes
      1y
      Quote from @James Hamling:

      @Ian Russell first of all, kudo's on getting to where you are, you've done very well and that deserves some pat's on the back, celebrate the win's. 

      I hear you speaking to questions of the business fundamentals at this "sport", the one's often NOT written of or spoken of. Reason being, most content out there is to draw in "rainbow chasers" and the upstarts. There is a lacking for the nut's & bolt's intermediate. 

      As much as getting to free & clear and holding forever sounds great and has a natural feeling of being "the" thing to get to. In Business it's neglectful. 

      As your starting to experience, as @Nathan Gesnerpointed out, your bottom line is eroding. 

      Let's reframe this and imagine instead of rental real estate you had rental cars. 

      It readily jumps out that right away when you get a new car into the fleet, it's a great performer even though the net from it is a bit tighter because of covering that acquisition cost. 

      It rents for more because of that new car smell. No maintenance to be had as, everything is new. 

      Than a bit into the ownership, that bottom line starts growing and growing. It's this middle timeline that it really starts putting a smile on the face and earns that moniker "cash cow". It's not that old, so it handles the miles well. Sure there's been oil changes and tires, but these expenses were not that big an impact and it's still got "that look" and it books fast and stays booked up. 

      Now, a little more time passes and all of a sudden that smile is upside down and turned into sentiment of every time that auto is mentioned "great, what now....".  

      It's easy to get a feeling what was great has become possessed. It's really just the natural arch of time, the miles are taking there toll. They style is now a bit out of date, it's more and more often begrudgingly rented as a later option by people who truly wanted something else but, ok, fine, that's all there is, ok, I guess...... 

      The maintenance seems to be a steady flow, and every time it's gritting teeth hoping and praying it's not another major item of significant cost. 

      And if keep in this downward cycle, it become a chase of trying to recoup the expense outlay conveyor. And it's a loosing battle but one get's so far into it chasing "it's gotta be done now, I think, I hope, maybe". 

      Real Estate is no different. 

      Everything wears out. Everything has a use span. And if stay into any 1 property long enough, no, it's never really "paid-off" because after say 20-odd years your most likely to have to replace EVERYTHING to such an extent that it's an expense roughly matching a complete property purchase itself. 

      There is a "sweet-spot" of performance that is on average yr 3-7. On average about 5yrs of happy-days. 

      Now Commercial Residential (apartments etc) is a bit different. Yes, this cycle still happens but it's factored in, at least everyone who know's what there doing factors it in and there is a program for rolling renovations every 4'ish yrs on average. With major renovations every 7'ish. Rejuvenating them to be like-new, with the current trends, etc.. 

      Now too the money. 

      Your doing yourself a great disservice keeping so much $ locked up in equity. 

      First of all, your ability to earn off those $'s locked into equity is much more limited, and thus the returns it could be earning, lost. 

      Second, and so many miss this and it's confuses me, by having expanded net cashflow your also making your tax impact and loss of gross revenues too taxation way WAY bigger than it need be. 

      A free & clear property = maximizing how much flesh the tax-butcher takes. 

      And it's a choice, so why choose to donate maximum $ from your pocket to really the worst steward of capitol deployment since..... well since EVER. 

      Mortgages are your FRIEND. They (a) put the $ in your pocket and (b) limit how much that tax-butcher is taking from the same pocket. 

      Now INTEREST RATE, because i already feel the questions and arguments of "but, but, but the interest rate is ____". 

      So here is the TRUTH about lent money: If you borrow me $100 today, and I pay you back that $100 in 10 years, did I give you back $100 ????? NO. 

      Confused? It's ok, that's understandable, the US education system is designed to make good little consumers, not wise informed investors. 

      INFLATION. 

      Inflation is a function that is omnipresent in US economy and really nearly all. Meaning, it will ALWAYS be. 

      And via inflation, say today that $100 buys a person 3 full tanks of gas. But in 10 years, it buys only 1.5 tanks of gas.     So, is that the SAME $100? 

      NOPE. 

      So in truth, when a borrow say $100k of money today, to acquire an appreciating asset that we can operate for an appreciating use value, the true and accurate math is that the purchasing power of that $100k we got full use of today, and can pay it off over time, DEMINISHES in it's purchase power over time THUS making it less $ we are paying back over time once inflation adjusted. 

      And when you understand this, we can understand even an 8% interest rate isn't really the full money plus 8%. 

      And going a step deeper, it's not you the investor who pay's this 8%, it's the tenants isn't it. 

      So the only factor that truly matters is does the revenue it will produce cover the expenses to an extent where it's a net profitable venture? 

      Ok, to wrap it all up. 

      Most LT professional Landlords keep there leverage point via leveraged/lent funds to a range of 45-65% LTV. As the equity builds and that start hitting on or near 50% is when most start thinking refi, or SELL too 1031 to deploy into other, newer assets resetting that cap-x timeclock too 0.

      And smart investors think "facelift" every 4'ish years and renovations/updates every 7'ish.

      For your situation I would be discussing Pyramiding, and Consolidation. We would be discussing which is the better fit for yourself, your lifestyle, life goals etc.. Each has it's merits, each has it's thorns. 

      From there would come the discussion of which financing (OPM) is a best fit for that next chapter of things. 

      Unless these properties have some special factors such as waterfront etc., I would not get attached to then with thought of "forever home". 

      Forever Homes are for owner occupants, not for business.  


       This makes a lot of sense.  Definitely has me thinking in a different way.  Although Im still enjoying the monthly deposits I do dread any email that I see coming from my property manager.  New roof last year, already a new roof this year and it seems this is going to be the trend.  I am going to definitely list some of my older properties that are starting to give me headaches.  thanks again

  • Jaron WallingPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    @James Hamling Unbelievable response here. Wasn't planning to check the forums today but glad I did. We're trying to apply this wisdom to our tiny portfolio. In this market we need all the help we can get. 

    "There is a "sweet-spot" of performance that is on average yr 3-7. On average about 5yrs of happy-days.

    Question: I bought a property in 2018 (BRRRR deal), remodeled it, and it cash-flows roughly $300 per month. House built in 1930. Almost everything has been replaced or upgraded including HVAC. We owe $81k, 3.5% rate, and market value is $170-190K.

    If the tenants moved out would you sell?  

    • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jaron Walling:

      @James Hamling Unbelievable response here. Wasn't planning to check the forums today but glad I did. We're trying to apply this wisdom to our tiny portfolio. In this market we need all the help we can get. 

      "There is a "sweet-spot" of performance that is on average yr 3-7. On average about 5yrs of happy-days.

      Question: I bought a property in 2018 (BRRRR deal), remodeled it, and it cash-flows roughly $300 per month. House built in 1930. Almost everything has been replaced or upgraded including HVAC. We owe $81k, 3.5% rate, and market value is $170-190K.

      If the tenants moved out would you sell?  


      Depends on the area analysis. 

      Having fully renovated the place, effectively having built a new home right, I'd more so look at it as a 7yr held property vs 1930 built. And really effective age is the most important age as that's what appraisal and monetization will be most heavily weighted from. 

      I look at the area in tiers. The <1mile immediate "neighborhood", the 1-2 mile "radius area", and the (on average) 2-5mile "city" area. 

      To hold longer I'd want to see a clear indicator of growth/appreciation in the near term 1-3yr window.      And I weigh how the picture comes together. 

      For example, say the "city" is looking stagnant, it's built out, even aging out in some areas, long established and just no big changes coming. The "area" is ok and the "neighborhood" is HOT, yes I'd 100% SELL. 

      Because that tells me I will be able to really push for maximum sale, and the growth is all but capped out with declining gains soon to radiate through to this neighborhood. 

      Now a different scenario. 

      Say the "city" is under developed. Completed consolidation of first major growth but on the radar is some new schools, roads, infrastructure, malls and what not. Maybe it's been mentioned a Costco is coming to a "meah" mall area. So today the city is kind of stagnant. 

      The "area" is good, no real negatives and just a solid 7. 

      And the "neighborhood" is a bit under developed. Or let's say aged, even very aged but there has been old dumps sold and redeveloped indicating gentrification possibly starting. 

      Ok, this I may hold a bit more. Because it is turning a corner that could take it HOT, and present some sizable gains for holding a short bit longer. 

      I look at things as 3 fundamental factors: The asset (ie property), the market (ie the 3 areas I mentioned) and the Opportunity Cost. 

      So the 3rd great modifier to my actions would be, if I had that cash today instead of the property, what opportunities would I have for it's deployment? Would I buy THAT property with the $ ???? 

      Harvard School of Business teaches this approach for when uncertain. Remove the actual asset, view it in terms of if had that $ in question, then ask would you use that $ toward this asset as an investment? If answer is no, then you should sell. 

      Last thing I would do today though is sell any performing real estate to buy stocks, that's just crazy to buy-in on a declining market.   

    • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jaron Walling:

      @James Hamling Unbelievable response here. Wasn't planning to check the forums today but glad I did. We're trying to apply this wisdom to our tiny portfolio. In this market we need all the help we can get. 

      "There is a "sweet-spot" of performance that is on average yr 3-7. On average about 5yrs of happy-days.

      Question: I bought a property in 2018 (BRRRR deal), remodeled it, and it cash-flows roughly $300 per month. House built in 1930. Almost everything has been replaced or upgraded including HVAC. We owe $81k, 3.5% rate, and market value is $170-190K.

      If the tenants moved out would you sell?  


      My short-direct answer is: yes I'd sell. 

      Because by your numbers, it's a very weak performer. You only have a net-flow because of the low rate and the huge equity position. 

      If came into it today, 20% down, standard rates, it would be gushing red. 

      That indicates to me the market weakness is significant. 

      And for deals I play in today...... That equity can get me a new built nice home, in a VERY strong market with significant appreciation factors to it, really A class across the board. And yes, it's mid 300's but that's a good thing because 10% appreciation on $350k is a hell of a lot more than 10% on $180k. It's about double. 

      And starting net on rent's is about same/similar, but again with bigger #'s, appreciation factor has a lot more power, as that $300mnth will quickly be surpassed with just 4% annual rent increase (sub market rate FYI). 

      This is why you don't tend to see the "Grant Cardone's" of real estate in these low-$ markets. Twice the work, half the $.    

      The money tends to be in the middle. 

      You know, it's all a math game. We invest on compounded %, we borrow on set $, and the spread is how we "eat". So bigger #'s = more $ for less work. 

      I mean, to an extent. Luxury R.E. has longer vacancy etc etc but you know that's not what I am talking about here. I am speaking being a Landlord to $400k properties vs $100k properties. 

    • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jaron Walling:

      If the tenants moved out would you sell?  

      That's a bad question because everyone is in a different place, trying to get to a different place, and using different modes of transportation.

      Q: Would you recommend a higher octane fuel for a cross-country trip?
      A: I'm on a bicycle, so it really doesn't matter.

      Learn to crunch the numbers and determine what is right for you. Personally, I wouldn't even think about selling when you have a low interest rate, positive cash flow, and no definitive plan of how to reinvest the money.

      Enjoy what you have. Increase earnings, reduce expenses, save up, and use that money to buy a new investment.
      The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Real Estate Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 24 votes
    1y

    Really appreciate all the advice that I got on this thread.  I am definitely going to use it.  When I started buying properties about 15 years ago in Spokane, Wa I had no plan no guidance.  I did know that buying a 150,000 dollar duplex that was getting 1600 in rent was probably something I should be doing.  Any time I could save 50,000 dollars I would buy another one.  I knew they would appreciate in time but didn't even think of rents doubling in that time as well.  Like I said I really didn't know what I was doing.  My main goal was to try to pay them all off.  After hearing a lot of advice on this board I will be selling some of these off and buying new units and getting mortgages again.  I will keep some of the newer ones.   Even pulling out a line of credit on some is interesting as well.   thanks again for the advice

    • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ian Russell:

      Really appreciate all the advice that I got on this thread.  I am definitely going to use it.  When I started buying properties about 15 years ago in Spokane, Wa I had no plan no guidance.  I did know that buying a 150,000 dollar duplex that was getting 1600 in rent was probably something I should be doing.  Any time I could save 50,000 dollars I would buy another one.  I knew they would appreciate in time but didn't even think of rents doubling in that time as well.  Like I said I really didn't know what I was doing.  My main goal was to try to pay them all off.  After hearing a lot of advice on this board I will be selling some of these off and buying new units and getting mortgages again.  I will keep some of the newer ones.   Even pulling out a line of credit on some is interesting as well.   thanks again for the advice

      Good plan. Let me add a couple things. Taxes become a bigger consideration on an older portfolio. You don't have that much to write off anymore. That's where new mortgages come in, because the cash you pull out is tax-free. Not everyone wants to grow their portfolio, you could also 1031 into a DST if you want to be passive.

      The other thing I would do is get proactive with rehabs. Our portfolio is all 1950s and 1960s housing and we gut rehab them to reset the clock for the next 30 years. If you rehab well and you have good tenants a property will look just fine after 10 years. (If you have the wrong tenant it can look like ready to rehab after 1 year BTW). 

      Reinvesting money gets you higher rents AND better tenants. That has become a huge consideration for me over the years, there is massive benefit to that combination.

      What we do now is systematically replace old driveways and roofs. We have a list and we do several of them every year. Similar with furnaces, we have a list of old HVAC and have started swapping out older ones. Paying half the cost of a new unit in repairs in the middle of winter and you still have an old HVAC makes no sense. I'd rather do a scheduled replacement in summer.

      Great post @James Hamling

  • Jaron WallingPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    @James Hamling "because 10% appreciation on $350k is a hell of a lot more than 10% on $180k. It's about double." - We sold another property (would have cash-flowed minimal) and used the funds to buy our current primary which effectively doubled the real estate prices and chance for appreciation (stronger location). 

     @Nathan Gesner We're on the side of the fence to not sell due to everything you said. Fun question to ask because sometimes I see blunt answers. This market is brutal for finding distressed opportunities. Selling what we have and not having a deal in the pipeline is probably stupid so I appreciate the advice. 

    • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jaron Walling:

      @James Hamling "because 10% appreciation on $350k is a hell of a lot more than 10% on $180k. It's about double." - We sold another property (would have cash-flowed minimal) and used the funds to buy our current primary which effectively doubled the real estate prices and chance for appreciation (stronger location). 

       @Nathan Gesner We're on the side of the fence to not sell due to everything you said. Fun question to ask because sometimes I see blunt answers. This market is brutal for finding distressed opportunities. Selling what we have and not having a deal in the pipeline is probably stupid so I appreciate the advice. 


      Why the singular focus on distressed opportunities?

      Think of it this way; what is it at root that makes distressed good? It's the value-add, right? 

      Well, value-add comes in a whole assortment of flavors, not just that 1 vehicle of distressed. 

      Example: 

      Almost 3yrs ago now as it got next to impossible to land a buy, multiple offers and crazy over ask for seemingly anything, we had to pivot. So, I took this client of mine to look at a very different play, phase I new development. I found a great townhome development, phase I, surrounded by nice SFH's, was a bit nicer then average townhomes call it "sheq" townhomes, not luxury but definently much nicer then average.

      Getting with builder, knowing full plan, we got in early. Was able to snag in low $300's. It was a lot at time for townhome. But surrounding homes were just popping over $500's so it was "cheap' vs the area which was "catching fire" for desire and trending. 

      We leased it in 17 days listing. Nearly $3k rents, to exactly who we targeted. Divorcing upper middle class professional who worked hybred and valued our 3br + office. 

      A year and a half later, had our first vacancy coming up and, yet again, had it leased in 19 days listing this time 2 full weeks before exiting tenant had even moved out making for 0 vacancy. 

      And yes, again, divorcing upper middle class professional, home owner in the area, 2.5 kids yada-yada. 

      Fast forward to today. Development is 100% completed, development has expanded out, and current market value is in the low $400's. 

      How? 

      What too many don't know is new-con development has a unique factor potential in appreciation called FORCED appreciation. 

      See, knowing this builder, being a registered insider with em, There profit is on the last 10% of units. And as everyone sells, the "game" is how much they can price up the next. It's all designed into it. So knowing this, I come in phase I and offer a win-win. We help build velocity, because for them velocity = more profits. More velocity = faster/bigger rate of price increase, which = higher sold $ on those important last 10% = bigger net on the development. 

      And I don't hack at the sold price, no, we protect that. Buuuut there is more then 1 way to skin a cat, and get discounts. So we get them to pay 100% agent fee's, 100% closing, kick in all the freebies for appliances and what-not AND cover all loan origination fee's, rate buy-down etc etc.. Now, a 5% rate vs 6.5% may not seem like $ in the pocket but I assure you it is. 

      And that's what we got, 5% flat. Awesome sauce! 

      Is it a traditional value-add? No, not really. 

      BUT, we are still doing exactly this but also with unfinished basements that are fully plumbed in and framed for future finish AND have all arcitectural prints for the finish, nicely setup to just pull lines, rock, trim, flooring and vhwallah 3br 3ba turns into 4br 4ba. 

      Value-add. 

      And in the new-con side, we got supply. Not just supply but supply controls not available anywhere else in market. We can view traffic studies, populace growth studies, all this nerdy report stuff telling us what to expect in future and from that, quantify a projection for rent and home sale appreciation. 

      because again, FORCED appreciation. I get to see all the plans and intentions of where the builders prices are going. And they are literally setting the market prices in these areas, setting the comp's. 

       The opportunities are out there. They just come packaged a bit differently. 

  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    You're in a great situation at only 49 years old with all that equity. Why not keep the course and do nothing? Sure you'll always have cap ex issues, but your cashflow is probably insane so who cares? I'm 54 years old with 29 SFR that are always breaking and costing me $. Or an occasional vacancy that is expensive. I've got 9 houses paid off and probably around 50% equity on average in the ones that I've got mortgages on. Could I maximize my cashflow if I sold some and did 1031 exchanges or cash out refis to tap into equity? Sure. But I'm happy with my cashflow now and keeping things simple. Are you happy with your cashflow overall now considering your cap ex issues and an occasional vacancy etc? If so, don't do a thing. You've created generational wealth already. Or do you need/want much more cashflow? If that's the case then put some of that equity to use and buy some more good cash flowing properties. Or 1031 a few and scale up a little. My wife always asks me "when is enough?" She doesn't like that I keep adding more to our life when I keep buying great cash flowing houses than fall in my lap. She thinks our cashflow is good enough now and wants me to stop, so I will. Do you have enough now? That's the big question. If not, you've got some great options ahead of you with all that equity! Good luck.

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    Another good way to think about this decision is if you want to have this property in your "collection" 10 years from now. Would you be happy to own it in this neighborhood with where things are going or do you only like the numbers?

    In my market (Milwaukee) distressed properties are not a business model anymore. Our market is so extremely dry on inventory that you can't get a discount to match the condition. First time home buyers vastly underestimate how much it will take and pay full price. The last few properties we bought were all basically move in ready. 

    We stepped in on deals that fell through on financing and bought them cash with a small discount (about 10%) in exchange to keep the sellers original closing date and be able to close on their new home. By the time I would have been able to get the rehab done, gotten a tenant in place, we were not that far from picking up another 10% in market appreciation for basically doing nothing. Maybe not the best CoC return, but a really good return on my time.

  • Real Estate Broker · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2015 · 299 posts · 90 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Ian Russell:

    Maybe I need to just hire a financial planner but thought I should come here first.  Trying to figure out the best way to maximize my equity in my investment properties.  Some of them are getting on the older side but have good equity but I just seem to be making bigger repairs on some of them which wipes out the profit for the whole year. So I will list what I have and just seeking some advice because I fell I could be doing more.  All my properties are out of state so im paying property managers 8%. Thinking of selling a couple and investing profits in stock market or just putting in high yield savings at 4.5% or potentially buying new properties with less maintenance.  Cash our refi a potential option?  Dont know much about that.  Also Im 49 years old so not into huge risk anymore but dont mind a little.  Any thoughts? or do I just hire someone to help.   thanks

    1. Duplex Paid off( Washington state) Paid off- roughly worth 500k. 38,4000 in yearly rents

    2. Duplex Paid off(Washington state)- roughly worth 530,000k  40,800 in yearly rents

    3  Triplex Paid off (Washington state) roughly worth 500k 43,2000 in yearly rents

    4 Triplex Paid off (Washington state) roughly worth 500k 42,000 in yearly rents

    5 4 plex paid off (Arkansas) roughly worth 330000 31,200 in yearly rents

    6 single family paid off( Arkansas) roughly worth 200k  19,2000 in yearly rents

    7 Duplex (Washington) owe 60,000  worth 450,000 mortgage (900 dollars per month)  (taxes insurance included) 38,400 in rents

    8 Duplex (Washington) owe 80,000 worth 450,000  mortage (900 dollars per month tax insurance inclueded) 39,000 rents yearls

    9 Duplex(Idaho) owe 80,000 worth 430,000 mortgage (900 dollars per month tax insurance included) rents  36,000 rents yearly

    10 Single family(Nevada) 0we 280,000 worth 700,000k mortgage ( 2000k per month tax insurance included)  rents 37,000 rents yearly


     Congrats on your portfolio, I would keep the properties and stay out of the stock market which is kinda like a Roulette wheel for now. 

  • Lender · Member since 2025 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    1y

    Hello Ian, first of all, Congratulations on your journey to real estate investing. The market is cyclical. Understand that real estate markets fluctuate, so don't panic sell during downturns.

    What does financials look like in terms of other assets like stocks/bonds/gold etc? If you don't have other assets as much, perhaps you can reallocate and diversify by getting into other asset types or different types of real estate like commercial buildings.

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