MAYDAY! Contractor sucks!

Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Mark R.:

@David Begley I'm not defending the work I'm saying the responsibility falls ultimately on the person paying for the work. And Donald didn't have a person to take his place to make sure the obvious was being taken care of because he works 70 hours a week. And your right he shouldn't have to stand right over somebody to make sure they are doing it right and the contractor should of definitely called Donald to let him know things are not going as planned and here's the reasons why. I find this is the main reason why things don't go as planned because a lot of the time people don't want to admit they have done something wrong. So many things can be easily addressed and fixed if people on both sides just talk it out and move on fast and effectively. No one can say they had a crappy contractor if they checked the work out as it progressed.

Mark, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think you are missing my point. Let me state it another way. If I was in charge of building KC's new CityPlace development and chose you as the GC and you used your subs to do the work, do you really think my standing over your shoulder and good communication would coax you through that process? No, you likely haven't the experience or skills to do that job, and no amount of coddling will change that. Same as this case - the guy hasn't the skills and will never be able to adequately resolve the issue. If Lifestyles has a scintilla of integrity, they will send in a contractor they know to be respectable and fix this mess - on their dime.

0 Reply

Patrick L.

Real Estate Investor · Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 951 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Lynn Dee Murrow:

If people were fired every time they made a mistake it would be a chaotic world. Think about it in your own work. When you make a mistake should your boss fire you? Or would it be better to work with you to help the customer and then make sure you and your team knows what to do to prevent the mistake from happening again? Obviously there are things that happen from time to time that require someone to be fired and if that is the case I will take that action. In life I have found that most mistakes you, me or a vendor working with a real estate investor make are just that...mistakes... I believe that with good communication and teamwork they can be resolved.

Lynn, looking at the pictures of the work that was done it's quite a stretch to call that a "mistake." A mistake is something like the contractor buying the 4 panel doors rather than 6 panel (which was also mentioned). The rest of the work is just poor craftsmanship or pure incompetence. If I had someone on one of my job sites delivering that type of product he'd be removed immediately. If someone is doing work like that then either they just don't care about the quality of their work or they aren't capable of doing the work....either way I wouldn't let him back.

I also would never let work go unchecked that long, especially with a new contractor. You just have to make sure everything's on track and you're still on the same page, that's just part of doing a rehab. Even if you're busy with work get by there at night and look at the progress.

1 Reply

Shawn Root

Real Estate Investor · Seabrook, TX · Member since 2015 · 37 posts · 6 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Mark R.:

@David Begley I'm not defending the work I'm saying the responsibility falls ultimately on the person paying for the work. And Donald didn't have a person to take his place to make sure the obvious was being taken care of because he works 70 hours a week. And your right he shouldn't have to stand right over somebody to make sure they are doing it right and the contractor should of definitely called Donald to let him know things are not going as planned and here's the reasons why. I find this is the main reason why things don't go as planned because a lot of the time people don't want to admit they have done something wrong. So many things can be easily addressed and fixed if people on both sides just talk it out and move on fast and effectively. No one can say they had a crappy contractor if they checked the work out as it progressed.

I'm sorry....what? The responsibility for ensuring that the work is performed correctly falls on the contractor. That's why you hire one. You always have to make sure you are getting what you paid for, but to put the responsibility of poor workmanship on the customer is just ... well ... confusing to me. In what other industry would you claim responsibility if someone you hired didn't do a good job? Are you checking the seasoning that the caterer is using? Are you checking to make sure that the web designer has used the appropriate security protocols? You hire people to do things that they profess to be competent at. Of course you have to be happy with the finished product and need to have clearly communicated your requirements, but that doesn't mean that you had a hand in them turning out a crappy tasting cupcake or a website where your customer's information is open for the whole world to see.

4 Reply

Donald Hendricks

OP

Investor · Clarksville, IN · Member since 2012 · 226 posts · 96 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Shawn Root:

Originally posted by @Mark R.:

@David Begley I'm not defending the work I'm saying the responsibility falls ultimately on the person paying for the work. And Donald didn't have a person to take his place to make sure the obvious was being taken care of because he works 70 hours a week. And your right he shouldn't have to stand right over somebody to make sure they are doing it right and the contractor should of definitely called Donald to let him know things are not going as planned and here's the reasons why. I find this is the main reason why things don't go as planned because a lot of the time people don't want to admit they have done something wrong. So many things can be easily addressed and fixed if people on both sides just talk it out and move on fast and effectively. No one can say they had a crappy contractor if they checked the work out as it progressed.

I'm sorry....what? The responsibility for ensuring that the work is performed correctly falls on the contractor. That's why you hire one. You always have to make sure you are getting what you paid for, but to put the responsibility of poor workmanship on the customer is just ... well ... confusing to me. In what other industry would you claim responsibility if someone you hired didn't do a good job? Are you checking the seasoning that the caterer is using? Are you checking to make sure that the web designer has used the appropriate security protocols? You hire people to do things that they profess to be competent at. Of course you have to be happy with the finished product and need to have clearly communicated your requirements, but that doesn't mean that you had a hand in them turning out a crappy tasting cupcake or a website where your customer's information is open for the whole world to see.

Exactly.

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Shawn Root:

I'm sorry....what? The responsibility for ensuring that the work is performed correctly falls on the contractor. That's why you hire one. You always have to make sure you are getting what you paid for, but to put the responsibility of poor workmanship on the customer is just ... well ... confusing to me. In what other industry would you claim responsibility if someone you hired didn't do a good job? Are you checking the seasoning that the caterer is using? Are you checking to make sure that the web designer has used the appropriate security protocols? You hire people to do things that they profess to be competent at. Of course you have to be happy with the finished product and need to have clearly communicated your requirements, but that doesn't mean that you had a hand in them turning out a crappy tasting cupcake or a website where your customer's information is open for the whole world to see.

I completely disagree. Here's why:

http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2010/02/10...

It's *ALWAYS* the fault of the guy whose project it is.

As to your specific examples above... If I hire a caterer and the food isn't good, it's *MY* fault. If I hire a web designer who screws up, it's *MY* fault. On my projects, the buck stops with me.

I've managed hundreds of employees for some very large companies, and any time one of my employees (or one of their employees...or one of their employees) screwed up, it was ultimately my fault. Though my boss would say it was his fault. And his boss would say it was his fault.

On my projects, I may hold someone else accountable when something goes wrong, but it's still *MY* fault. And until you accept that every problem on your project is your fault, you'll never have projects that go smoothly.

Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)

2 Reply

Shawn Root

Real Estate Investor · Seabrook, TX · Member since 2015 · 37 posts · 6 votes

11y

Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by @Shawn Root:

I'm sorry....what? The responsibility for ensuring that the work is performed correctly falls on the contractor. That's why you hire one. You always have to make sure you are getting what you paid for, but to put the responsibility of poor workmanship on the customer is just ... well ... confusing to me. In what other industry would you claim responsibility if someone you hired didn't do a good job? Are you checking the seasoning that the caterer is using? Are you checking to make sure that the web designer has used the appropriate security protocols? You hire people to do things that they profess to be competent at. Of course you have to be happy with the finished product and need to have clearly communicated your requirements, but that doesn't mean that you had a hand in them turning out a crappy tasting cupcake or a website where your customer's information is open for the whole world to see.

I completely disagree. Here's why:

http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2010/02/10...

It's *ALWAYS* the fault of the guy whose project it is.

As to your specific examples above... If I hire a caterer and the food isn't good, it's *MY* fault. If I hire a web designer who screws up, it's *MY* fault. On my projects, the buck stops with me.

I've managed hundreds of employees for some very large companies, and any time one of my employees (or one of their employees...or one of their employees) screwed up, it was ultimately my fault. Though my boss would say it was his fault. And his boss would say it was his fault.

On my projects, I may hold someone else accountable when something goes wrong, but it's still *MY* fault. And until you accept that every problem on your project is your fault, you'll never have projects that go smoothly.

Thanks for you comment. However, I don't think that your argument is internally consistent. You say that you will hold someone else accountable yet it's your fault. We aren't talking the same thing here. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure this never happens again. As I've said many times in my industry (where we always look for the process that broke) sometimes that process that broke down was the hiring process. Sometimes you have people in positions where they shouldn't be. If they misrepresented their abilities in a certain area, then your responsibility, while not 0, is not definitely not the majority. In this case, he didn't hire someone in the sense of hiring an employee, he entered into a contract with another business owner to perform a service. If you take responsibility for the failures of others all the time, you are going to spend an awful lot of time falling on your sword. That being said, I understand (I think) the point you are trying to make which is "take responsibility for the success/failure of your project." I can get behind that and the proper response in this instance was to realize the error in hiring this person and course-correcting by firing them and finding another competent contractor with appropriate experience and references. That doesn't mean that the OP somehow caused the poor workmanship. That's what fault means. Responsibility for the project is something different and I think we agree where that lies. The comment I was directly responding to was related to the OP being at fault because he didn't go and check the work often enough. I doubt that you were checking the work of your employees employees directly on a regular basis while the work was in-progress. At least, I know that wouldn't be possible in my industry. You are right that the ultimate success of the project falls on you as the leader, though. I can't argue with that and wouldn't want to.

0 Reply

Shawn Root

Real Estate Investor · Seabrook, TX · Member since 2015 · 37 posts · 6 votes

11y

@J Scott

I guess I have to take ownership of the fact that I'm mixing my terms. When I saw the OP being accused of being responsible for the shoddy work, I imputed guilt or fault. I guess I should have read your blog post before responding, but even after reading it I don't quite agree with you or your mentor. I suppose I could get behind his statement if he was trying to get you to get out of your self-pity and just problem-solve. It is definitely a good idea to protect yourself as much as possible against others' incompetence or malfeasance. I just think that there's a big difference between taking ownership of the bad behavior of others and protecting yourself against it.

0 Reply

Dell Schlabach

Investor · Canton-Akron, OH · Member since 2012 · 917 posts · 477 votes

11y

I have to agree with @j scott, its one of the first things that was drilled into me by my private lender, former rehabber, when I started doing rehabs.

Any time I complained about a contractor I didn't get any sympytathy from my "mentor". The questions were always along the lines of; who hired him, whose responsibility is it, why did I let it go this long. Either the contractor doesn't understand or is incompetent.

If he doesn't understand expectations its my fault for not communicating them clearly, if he's incompetent its still my fault for hiring him and I need to dehire him quickly, and hire someone more competent.

2 Reply

Account Closed

Contractor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 1 post · 1 vote

11y

As a long time contractor in the peoples republic of California, but new here, either the "contractor" lacked the skill to do the job or didn't care. It is "contractors" like this that give my industry a bad name.

1 Reply

Gregory Zanolini

Doylestown, PA · Member since 2014 · 25 posts · 12 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

As a long time contractor in the peoples republic of California, but new here, either the "contractor" lacked the skill to do the job or didn't care. It is "contractors" like this that give my industry a bad name.

I hear you Mark. It sickens me to see this sort of thing going on.

0 Reply

Jay H.

Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2013 · 108 posts · 55 votes

11y

Escrow the repair cost. Show him the escrowed funds are available per % of completion. With your blessing. Only cover 50% of materials upfront. Require a PO or invoices from suppliers. Check on job daily. If I have a dispute,the money is in my control.

0 Reply

Mark R.

Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 8 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Jay H.:

Escrow the repair cost.
Show him the escrowed funds are available per % of completion. With your blessing.

Only cover 50% of materials upfront. Require a PO or invoices from suppliers.

Check on job daily.

If I have a dispute,the money is in my control.

CHECK ON JOB DAILY if you do that it can go only so far and less headache.

That's my point exactly and that falls on the person who hired the contractor

period.

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Chad Clanton

Contractor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2013 · 647 posts · 205 votes

11y

@David Begley , I think (just my two cents) that Texas has embraced the reality that lots of folks who are willing to work will not or may not be able to get licenses, and so for economic purposes (read as "building economy and revenue") has decided to keep it deregulated. Coming from a "let's regulate EVERYTHING!!" state, I appreciate what I believe the deregulation approach does for Texas. It keeps people working, rather than sitting around, which I personally think is always a win. However, on the down side, it creates a very "buyer/customer beware" environment. I've started hosting a little BP roundtable group in San Antonio, and last meeting we had a show of hands of the about 20 people there for who had a good contractor. Not would they share him or her, but did they have one. We had, count it, ONE "kinda sorta" hand go up. Everyone else was looking.

Personally, I think the way Texas does it is the way to go. Regulate too much and you can vet people right out of the job, which benefits no one in the long run. What the model does mean is that the customer HAS to be involved (painful lesson learned on this end too). We're actually working on building a business specifically designed to oversee contractors for those who can't or don't wish to do it themselves, simply because of all the problems caused when contractors are left to their own devices down here. Deregulation is fantastic for the economy, in my opinion, but it involves a much higher degree of customer responsibility. With regulation, you may have 20 bad contractors out of 100 total contractors, but without it you may have 2,000 out of 10,000. It's the same ratio, but a much higher number. I think that's a lot of what you see here.

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Account Closed

Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes

11y

I have a good team of hispanic contractors, worth their weight for sure :).

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David Begley

Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes

11y

@Chad Clanton While I agree with your premise that over regulation can choke an economy, I vehemently disagree with your hypothesis that the ratio of bad contractors (like the one in question) to good contractors would be the same in both scenarios. That's just plain irrational. The examination, licensing, bonding, insurance, and net worth requirements in Georgia acts to weed out such idiots. I guarantee you this guy couldn't qualify for GC licensing in Georgia. Further, to pull any construction, electrical, plumbing permits in Georgia, a valid license is required. You are right about job creation - Texas has evidently created a cottage industry of contractors specializing in fixing crappy contractors mistakes. You've put people to work in careers that they aren't adequately prepared for to the detriment of your consumers. (I know there are good, unlicensed contractors as well as bad, licensed contractors, but licensing serves to weed out 90%+ of the hacks.)

Does Texas require licenses for realtors? Appraisers? Property Managers? Mortgage brokers? Of course they do, for the same reasons I've stated.

I need to move to Texas and open an aluminum siding/roofing business and take advantage of this loophole - and its consumers.

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Mike Clark

Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 28 posts · 27 votes

11y

I have been rehabbing in San Antonio for ten years and every time I ask someone if they could do the job they all said yes...I cannot tell you how many times I had to fired a contractor or how much money I lost because I gave them "another chance"

It wasn't until I took the time to learn the mechanics of my business by being on site constantly and in my case I picked up a hammer. I don't pick up a hammer anymore but I know every aspect of my business and when I visit the job site I can tell immediately if things are going well.

Until they start the job you are not going to know their level of workmanship...monitor them closely and if they don't meet your expectations let them go immediately.

1 Reply

Chad Clanton

Contractor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2013 · 647 posts · 205 votes

11y

@David Begley , I appreciate your stance on things, and being from Virginia before, I fully understand where you are regarding licensing and quality of work, and even agree to a point. However, the "corporate" contractors seemed to own the market there, specifically because of all the consumer protection/ licensing fees, requirements, etc, at least to my perception. That's a big reason I appreciate the way things work here, and that's coming from someone who lost a ton to one of the bad ones. I just look at it as more big picture than individual; what I took away is that I need eyes on the ground, constantly. My responsibility, my fault. I should have been there, and now I am. As to the numbers, they're hypotheticals, not statistics, however my stance remains. Have you ever known anyone who's lived in a subdivision built by a big developer and the quality of work was not really all that swell? I know I have. They use fully licensed contractors all day long, and the stuff they were pulling... Ugh.

One other point I think is relevant here in Texas (and no, I'm not looking up a white paper for this, but I think it's probably accurate) is that I'm willing to bet the folks really getting taken by these contractors are investors. Investors often have other jobs, are very busy, know it's generally not worth the money to sue or go after a contractor, etc. A homeowner or end-user will generally see their project each day and act appropriately, may be more likely to sue to fix the problem or get reimbursed, plus protection laws are more geared toward end-users than investors. As such, I'd say it's probably the investors who are losing more than homeowners, as a whole, especially considering the pace of construction here. To me, investors have a greater burden precisely because they're often NOT there every day, especially if they do other things full-time; when we don't keep a close eye on things, these things happen. I consider it part of the cost of doing business and have developed processes to work around it.

As to licensing, it would perhaps be better to elaborate somewhat. Skilled trades and various levels of home improvement contractors do, in fact, require licensing. There're no tests or anything (that I know of) for the unskilled trades, however at a certain point they do require licensing, which requires a background check, active liability insurance, etc. In Virginia you had to have a GC license to sub work on your project, but there is no "General Contractor" level license of which I'm aware here in TX, at least in San Antonio. To say there is no licensing at all, however, is incorrect. An active license is required to pull permits, as well. Should you like to look into it further, below is SA's licensing link. Good luck with your investing, and watch out for the lemons!

San Antonio Licensing

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Joe Cummings

Philly Burbs, PA · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 133 votes

11y

This is why in my world of construction, there are Accord certificates of insurance, Bid Bonds, Performance Bonds, AIA G702 and G703 forms required for payment, and all the rest of the BS. I don't like it, but it helps weed out idiots like this Flynn guy.

And why is it the property owners responsibility to watch over the "subs". If it is WTF is he paying the general for? This Flynn guy hired some drunks/addicts/illegals and 1099-ed them, called them "subcontractors" and when they fukkkkkk ed up the job, he tried to weasel out of his responsibility as the "general" F him, he deserves whatever he gets.

Ask Flynn for an "Accord Certificate of Insurance" To be legal it must be sent directly from his insurance company to the property owner and the property owner mmust be named on the Accord Certificate. Don't let him flim flam you with something he hands you or sends you, because if he does it will be a forged Accord Certificate. If he cannot provide an Accord Certificate sent from his insurance company by "snail mail", tell Mr. Flynn to go F himself and go pound sand.

Oh and I got to tell you, if I ever heard the phrase "Investment Model" come out of anyone, I'd bolt a titanium plate over my azz for protection

4 Reply

Donald Hendricks

OP

Investor · Clarksville, IN · Member since 2012 · 226 posts · 96 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

I have a good team of hispanic contractors, worth their weight for sure :).

what does race have to do with it?

2 Reply

Chad Clanton

Contractor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2013 · 647 posts · 205 votes

11y

Nice. Titanium is great, lightweight to carry too. I'm not certain which post you were referring too, but if it was mine, I should elaborate and say that just because there is no GC license, per se, the position still exists. Also, there is a Residential Building Contractor license which requires >$400,000 per occurrence liability insurance and other requirements, but it does not to my knowledge specifically govern the ability to subcontract work. My reference previously was to Virginia, where a GC license is specifically required to subcontract (if I recall correctly). In a nutshell, while there isn't necessarily vetting of contractors here in the unskilled trades, there is recourse IF you make sure they're actually licensed.

0 Reply

Account Closed

Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes

11y

In my case, it does, because they live in these neighborhoods and know precisely how much rehab to do. These areas are almost entirely hispanic in zip codes 78207 ad 78214, for instance. It makes it easier for us because they live there and are intimately familiar with the areas. Thanks.

0 Reply

Chris Harkins

Residential Real Estate Broker · Memphis, TN · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 60 votes

11y

@Lynn Dee Murrow

As an investor and GC I understand both parties frustrations.. one having dealt with horrible contractors on my own properties and then having at one time good contractors, botch a job that they were subbed out for.

So while it isn't ideal.. Lynn, you need to make it right, even if it cost you 5k because in the long run, it will cost you way more in lost business by not fixing it. Not only that, but you've got the opportunity to turn a bad situation into a win all the way around. But it won't be a win, if you let the fire keep burning too much longer.

I agree with Mark, that the only way to completely avoid this is supervision, which is NOT ideal at all. But is the ONLY way to stop it from becoming a problem, where you can address quality control issues immediately and terminate if necessary, sooner rather than later.

So you have 2 sides of the coin here as a contractor- Either large volume of work where not everything can be 100% supervised or small batches of work with a higher rate of supervision. It is the GC's job to patrol this.. If you choose the first option, large volume, you're going to have to budget for mistakes, and Make them right.. because lets be honest, -**** happens. It's a cost of doing business. But FIX IT and REMOVE the SUB.

Donald, sorry to hear about the issues, I hope they step up to the plate and do what is right.

1 Reply

Andrew SyriosPro Member

Moderator

Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Donald Hendricks:

I just moved out of my primary house, which I am converting to a rental. I hired a LifeStyles Unlimited (real estate investors club) recommended vendor from their magic vendor list. Regardless, it appears that this guy is in over his head with the mediocore quality of work that is being done. All I wanted was popcorn scraped, ceilings prepped, knockdown texture to applied consistent with knockdown texture that is in the master bedroom. Replace existing doors with 6 panel doors, and paint interior of house. Also there were a few cosmetic areas of wall textured that needed to be touched up

Job was suppose to be done yesterday, then today. I have been out of town. Not concerned about timeline. Went by today and now I am concerned that a troop of Boy Scouts could do better work. The popcorn was scraped , in the process ceiling was gouged, popcorn remains at edges, torn seams, no prep work, some type of texture was applied, I would hardly call it knock down, not consistent witt the master bedroom. Painting is amature hour. He painted light fixtures and other hardware. 6 panel doors have turned out to be 4, no biggie they look good, so I am ok with that, but not consistent with scope of work. None of the touch ups too the few areas that I requested were done.

I am so at a loss for words or what to do at this point.

Kick him to the curb? It'll cost me more than the original job to fix his "handy" work. I have paid him 60% of the job already up front.

Give him a chance to remedy his mess?

Really at a loss what to do at this point.

The first thing to do is to confront him about it. Don't be mean or snarky, but just explain (in painful detail) all of the issues that are there. How to proceed would depend on how far he is. But I would probably ask him to step aside for the above listed reasons and offer a significant discount. If you approach it rationally and respectfully, there's a good chance he'll see the light. If he doesn't, well that tells you even more and I would get rid of him ASAP. You're going to have to deal with this type of thing in real estate unfortunately. It's just part of the cost and learning process.

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Lynn Dee Murrow

Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2012 · 119 posts · 104 votes

11y

@Chris Harkins @Donald Hendricks

I agree Chris. We do work to make things right. The important thing here is to remember that these situations are usually not black and white. Dealing with people takes time energy and patience. We have a process of wrking through issues between our members and vendors. It has 2 objectives:

- remedy the immediate problem;

- create an opportunity for all parties - the member, the vendor, and us - to learn and grow from the situation.

I am super happy today because Donald did contact me last night so we can move forward from here!

2 Reply

Donald Hendricks

OP

Investor · Clarksville, IN · Member since 2012 · 226 posts · 96 votes

11y

I am in contact with Lynn Andris, Executive Vice President of Lifestyles Unlimited and we shall see what resolution can be worked out. I will update when that happens.

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MAYDAY! Contractor sucks!

MAYDAY! Contractor sucks!

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