Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
Trying to get a VERY BALLPARK idea of what I would expect a per-square-foot gut interior renovation to cost an investor in San Francisco.
By ballpark, I mean I'd be happy with a $50/sf range ($125-175/sf, for example) or even just a high-end number (up to $200/sf, for example).
By gut renovation, I mean gutting down to the studs and replacing all electrical, plumbing, HVAC, sheetrock and then all mid-level cosmetic finishes (oak hardwood, standard granite, basic fixtures, etc).
Ignore exterior costs since I know those are a lot more variable.
I realize that there are still a million variables, but I'm just trying to determine if a conservative number is $100/sf, $150/sf, $200/sf, $250K, etc...
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
11y
In high end areas of CA, building from scratch will cost $200 per sq. ft. (Plus garage) and it goes up from there. If you are on hillsides where foundation walls, caissons, etc are needed, obviously the price jumps up dramatically. For really high end finishes and upgrades, count on $300 per sq. ft.
So, if you are talking mid level higher end homes in CA and just the interior (no windows, stucco, roof, foundation, landscaping, etc) then the price is under those figures.
In my Beverly Hills flip, it is just over 3000 sq. ft. and the interior portion of the rehab (demo, architectural design, engineering, rough framing - added load bearing beams, moved load bearing walls, low voltage wiring, rough electrical and plumbing (some existing is used) or repositioned), finish electrical and plumbing, flooring (wood) plus tile in bathrooms and kitchen, new interior solid core doors and hardware, drywall (about 40%- 50% of existing was used), paint, custom cabinetry with custom stain, cabinet hardware, kitchen appliances - Viking) all of this will run me about $250k or just over $80 per sq. ft. not including any permit fees or project manager fees.
Now, I am also doing new windows and exterior doors and sliders, roof, landscaping, decking, BBQ buildout, etc. and my total budget is $350k ($113 per sq. ft.) For most others, to do this same work would likely cost $450k- $500k ($160 sq. ft.). So when you factor all the rest, foundation, framing, grading, permits, server connections, electrical and plumbing, then you get to the total buildout costs (spec build) of $200 per minimum.
@J Scott (can someone please @mention him, mine doesn't work)
Ok first off, thank everyone outside of California for their time, but ignore any of their advice, as California is a world unto itself, and San Francisco is even farther out there.
Now, make sure you are comparing apples to apples, and know what the costs everyone are quoting covers, is it labor and materials, etc. I want to stress, MAKE SURE YOU FIND OUT WHAT ALL THE PERMIT FEES WILL BE, because we have far more regulation in California than the rest of the planet. Know what days are work days, time frames you can work, etc. If you need a dumpster, make sure it's allowed, and there's room. There are places in areas like Laguna Beach (and I'm sure San Francisco) where space is so tight you have to bring in the materials being used for "that day" as there's no place to off load them, meaning higher costs.
The devil is in the details. Good luck!
Karen - First, just to make it easier for all those who have trouble tagging me, I get keyword alerts whenever "J Scott" is mentioned, so no need to tag!
And thank you for the info above. Talking to a few people here in the city, it's starting to become very clear that this is a world unto its own when it comes to construction, permitting, etc.
I'm helping a good friend with his personal residence (just planning at this point, he hasn't actually purchased anything), and am just trying to get enough information that I can set reasonable expectations for him. All the responses above have done a good job of setting those expectations, so thank you to everyone.
And yes, I do recognize the irony of my asking what "average" rehab costs are in the area -- I"m typically the one who likes to tell people here that there are no averages. But, for the more experienced investors, I think we all know that they exist, as long as you're willing to apply certain disclaimers (like those above).
@J Scott (can someone please @mention him, mine doesn't work)
Ok first off, thank everyone outside of California for their time, but ignore any of their advice, as California is a world unto itself, and San Francisco is even farther out there.
Now, make sure you are comparing apples to apples, and know what the costs everyone are quoting covers, is it labor and materials, etc. I want to stress, MAKE SURE YOU FIND OUT WHAT ALL THE PERMIT FEES WILL BE, because we have far more regulation in California than the rest of the planet. Know what days are work days, time frames you can work, etc. If you need a dumpster, make sure it's allowed, and there's room. There are places in areas like Laguna Beach (and I'm sure San Francisco) where space is so tight you have to bring in the materials being used for "that day" as there's no place to off load them, meaning higher costs.
The devil is in the details. Good luck!
Ironically, I'm partnering with another bp member and for the first time for me there is not enough room for a dumpster on our current project. I had never thought that would/could be a problem for a sfr!
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
11y
In high end areas of CA, building from scratch will cost $200 per sq. ft. (Plus garage) and it goes up from there. If you are on hillsides where foundation walls, caissons, etc are needed, obviously the price jumps up dramatically. For really high end finishes and upgrades, count on $300 per sq. ft.
So, if you are talking mid level higher end homes in CA and just the interior (no windows, stucco, roof, foundation, landscaping, etc) then the price is under those figures.
In my Beverly Hills flip, it is just over 3000 sq. ft. and the interior portion of the rehab (demo, architectural design, engineering, rough framing - added load bearing beams, moved load bearing walls, low voltage wiring, rough electrical and plumbing (some existing is used) or repositioned), finish electrical and plumbing, flooring (wood) plus tile in bathrooms and kitchen, new interior solid core doors and hardware, drywall (about 40%- 50% of existing was used), paint, custom cabinetry with custom stain, cabinet hardware, kitchen appliances - Viking) all of this will run me about $250k or just over $80 per sq. ft. not including any permit fees or project manager fees.
Now, I am also doing new windows and exterior doors and sliders, roof, landscaping, decking, BBQ buildout, etc. and my total budget is $350k ($113 per sq. ft.) For most others, to do this same work would likely cost $450k- $500k ($160 sq. ft.). So when you factor all the rest, foundation, framing, grading, permits, server connections, electrical and plumbing, then you get to the total buildout costs (spec build) of $200 per minimum.
Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y
interior remodels in SF can be done with over the counter permits. You get building, plumbing, electrical and mechanical permits all in one go. Not too expensive, i.e. Maybe $2000* all in.
They are fast and easy (same day) to get, AS LONG AS you are not doing anything structural. Then you need plans, engineering, more time, etc.
I'd budget $100-150 PSF for midrange rehabs and for "regular" size home/condo...i.e. Not for a 400 SF studio, not for a 3000 sf fancy home.
Rough budget. Not that complicated :)
* pro tip: permit fees are calculated based on the cost you put on the application for the work. Everyone lies through their teeth on the app! When they review your app they will revise and often up your estimate as a routine. The game is that your initial number is so ridiculously low to begin with, that even if they double it your total reahab cost "on paper" is maybe only $30-40k. That can save you a grand or so in permit fees.
Are anyone else's municipalities like this? Or is this a special only-in-SF incompetence?
interior remodels in SF can be done with over the counter permits. You get building, plumbing, electrical and mechanical permits all in one go. Not too expensive, i.e. Maybe $2000 all in.
They are fast and easy (same day) to get, AS LONG AS you are not doing anything structural. Then you need plans, engineering, more time, etc.
I'd budget $100-150 PSF for midrange rehabs and for "regular" size home/condo...i.e. Not for a 400 SF studio, not for a 3000 sf fancy home.
Wholesaler · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2012 · 259 posts · 147 votes
11y
I'm a little late to the party, but beware of NiMBYs out here. I live in San Francisco and I'm surrounded by renovation projects. I've received multiple notices for city planning meetings for proposed building changes. I live across the street from what was a 4,000+ sqft SFH that is now being split up into 6 condos. They want to eliminate street parking to add garage access and let me tell you, nothing upsets people more than removing a parking space.
Also, the renovation times out here seem absurdly long. On the aforementioned project, they started demo in January of 2014. I walked by yesterday and noticed the parking permit just got extended to 7/15/15. Not sure if that is a function of the SOW or the time involved with city planning meetings, permit reviews, etc. Hope that helps. Oh, and be prepared to have equipment/tools stolen. I spoke with the GC one day after he came over asking if my building had security cameras pointing towards his project. Chatted him up a bit and he said for the last 2 years, he's had tools stolen at every single one of his projects. They recently erected a massive 8 foot or so plywood fence to keep the riffraff out.
San Francisco, CA · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 0 votes
8y
I live in SF and am very familiar with SFR building/renovating in the city.
Renovation costs ranges vary dramatically based on finishes. Costs for ultra lux high end remodels can go way over $500.00 to $600.00 per SF very easily. Remodels with somewhat custom finishes run $350.00 to $450.00 per SF.
There are several high end cabinet companies out here that sell $100,000.00 kitchen cabinets (not even full kitchens with out: appliances/plumbing fixtures/stone/tile/floors/plumbing /electrical) like hot cakes. The economy is BOOMING.